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[On November 10 2010 08:54 jaeds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 08:27 Grond wrote:
It's a 25% less compared to other brackets once you start looking at the worlds best. Seems pretty significant to me. i think that the percent change comes down to player preference based on play-styles and race enjoyment. i imagine that while there are fewer represented protoss in the top 100 ladder that at least 20-40 of the top 100 players could switch races from terran or zerg and practice/play protoss ...and still be in the top 100 in a short time. it's not the race allowing them to be in the top 100. it's the player's skill
Ridiculous argument, my friend. The most frightening thing however is that I think you actually believe this, and aren't just trolling.
Did you ever stop to think why top players aren't picking Protoss? Players in top 100 would play a race of pink ponies and butterflies wearing dresses if it would improve their rank.
The fact that there are so few Toss in top 100 speaks volumes regarding the strength of Toss at that level, much more so then your conjecture and fantasy "what-if" scenarios.....
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On November 10 2010 07:26 schiznak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 06:18 Grond wrote:Its been mentioned many times before but you can't use win percentage because of how the matchmaking system works. Looking at points is much more useful. Top 5000Protoss 30.4% Top 2500Protoss 30.2% Top 1000Protoss 29.7% Top 500Protoss 29.4% Top 250Protoss 30.8% Top 100Protoss 25.0% It's pretty consistent until you get to the Top100 then there is a large drop off. that is so statistically insignifigant its not even funny. it hovers at around ~30% for every measure until you get to 100, which is only 5% lower and is most likely an outlier considering the tiny number of 100 players.
Yeah I think that because it is around 30% for everywhere until the top 100 it comes down to player preference. I don't doubt that the reason for the 5% drop is that those 100 players are less drawn to the race than others and it is not a balance decision.
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On November 10 2010 08:23 FeyFey wrote:
well looks pretty balanced with all those 30%. Top 100 is easy to explain, people like to win and thus play the "op race", also called winning team joiners (remember all the zergs stating they would switch to terran etc xD ). I think ladder balance is fine (well maybe mutas are a bit annoying there). Pro games protoss seems abit underpowered, but looking at those, they mostly lose because they can't reinforce their support units fast enough, loosing because their t1,5 gateway units are beeing overrun. Warp gates kind of give the zerg ability to switch fast between unit combos, but only for the low tier units (well except of templars). But sometimes you need the terran ability to just build an really strong force, that needs the right combination to be stopped.
Also toss rarely use harassement, because the warp prism is so weak. But in bw that didn't hurt the toss to use shuttles carriying their high damage weapons. Maybe a speed upgrade in the support dock could help to motivate toss player try out some harassements. Double immortal into the supply depot farm of a terra, right when he moves out xD, even able to warp in zealots to harass the worker line and scout a bit for enemy reinforcements, to save the immortals. Have some more observers to scout drops. Result should be if he attacks he wouldn't be able to reinforce his army for some time, while chrono boost and warp gates + mobile pylon makes it really easy to use that advantage. Would like to see some phenix map control stuff against the zerg and then just using a warp prism + colossi for the ground damage. (no idea if this works way to much micro for me and hydras are prolly to fast on creep for the prism, so go prism speed upgrade in the robo support (dunno if there is an upgrade in the fleet beacon for it or for the observer or something completly different hehe))
well can just hope for some cute protoss play like in the bw days, i mean marines had stim there as well, and the wraith was an even better shuttle hunter, but the reaver storm drop was a standart move, forcing so much ressources into anti drop. But i really like the pvz aggressiv play, where its always a back and force between stalkers zealots sentrys vs roaches lings banelings ^^. Really like it when the toss who mostly have more survivors anticipate what the zerg is building and counters it before its out.
Damn want to try out the double immortal drop + zealot warp in now, looked so awesome in the games i saw.
edit: harassment against randoms seems to be non existent (can't tell you why), even when i got zerg and had a terran opponent. Also there is way less cheese play when you are random. My guess is its because people decide this in the first workers, and since they don't know what race they are up against they don't decide on cheese or harrass.
The problem with using warp prisms especially early on is that it comes from the robo bay and you have to decide whether to cut observers/immortals/collossus to make one. As you say you need the extra observers especially v terran and the warp prism is very much neglected at the moment. It takes one viking to take out an early immortal drop and if it does its pretty much GG right there.
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On November 10 2010 09:30 Satire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 06:32 Proximo wrote:
I have read this entire thread, weighed the different arguments and have concluded that Protoss should definitely be nerfed even more.
Toss are obviously the most OP race in SC2. However, the simple, mere mortal players that choose to play Protoss obviously don't have have the cognitive, mental and gaming abilities to play Protoss correctly. Therefore a preemptive nerf is necessary IMO, to prepare for the eventual arrival of the Protoss messiah, who shall one day show us the light and teach us how to play properly.
In conclusion, I would like thank all the Zerg and Terran players, who have taken time out of their busy schedules pwning n00bs and winning tournaments, to come here and enlighten us simple Toss players with their uber theorycrafting.
Much appreciated, my friends.
I, for one, would like to be among the first to welcome our future Protoss overlords.
Glad to hear it.
We all eagerly await the future Protoss Messiah to come forward and lead us out of noobdom and into the light. 
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On November 10 2010 09:48 Proximo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 09:30 Satire wrote:On November 10 2010 06:32 Proximo wrote:
I have read this entire thread, weighed the different arguments and have concluded that Protoss should definitely be nerfed even more.
Toss are obviously the most OP race in SC2. However, the simple, mere mortal players that choose to play Protoss obviously don't have have the cognitive, mental and gaming abilities to play Protoss correctly. Therefore a preemptive nerf is necessary IMO, to prepare for the eventual arrival of the Protoss messiah, who shall one day show us the light and teach us how to play properly.
In conclusion, I would like thank all the Zerg and Terran players, who have taken time out of their busy schedules pwning n00bs and winning tournaments, to come here and enlighten us simple Toss players with their uber theorycrafting.
Much appreciated, my friends.
I, for one, would like to be among the first to welcome our future Protoss overlords. Glad to hear it. We all eagerly await the future Protoss Messiah to come forward and lead us out of noobdom and into the light.
Or at least into GSL ro4....
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On November 10 2010 09:32 Moa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 07:26 schiznak wrote:On November 10 2010 06:18 Grond wrote:Its been mentioned many times before but you can't use win percentage because of how the matchmaking system works. Looking at points is much more useful. Top 5000Protoss 30.4% Top 2500Protoss 30.2% Top 1000Protoss 29.7% Top 500Protoss 29.4% Top 250Protoss 30.8% Top 100Protoss 25.0% It's pretty consistent until you get to the Top100 then there is a large drop off. that is so statistically insignifigant its not even funny. it hovers at around ~30% for every measure until you get to 100, which is only 5% lower and is most likely an outlier considering the tiny number of 100 players. Yeah I think that because it is around 30% for everywhere until the top 100 it comes down to player preference. I don't doubt that the reason for the 5% drop is that those 100 players are less drawn to the race than others and it is not a balance decision.
I am wondering how much of it might be down to some of the fans. Watching Protoss play over the weekend I witnessed hatred at Nazguls "abuse" of blink stalkers "nerf them now!". Then kiwikaki trying to delay a fast natural expansion on scrap station with a cannon was being described as a cheese cannon rush by spectators and then when he build a void ray it was "omg double cheese, transition into more cheese" etc etc. Then you hear the crys about building four gates even if you dont use them to rush and omg forcefield "abuse". It seems there is barely a protoss unit you can make without it instilling anger in a lot of players seemingly ignorant of high level protoss builds and play. I wonder if some think it is an easier life with more appreciative public if they play the adorable zerg (who doesnt just well up with pride seeing a 6 pool) or the good old terran that the emperor heads up.
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On November 10 2010 08:54 jaeds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 08:27 Grond wrote:
It's a 25% less compared to other brackets once you start looking at the worlds best. Seems pretty significant to me. i think that the percent change comes down to player preference based on play-styles and race enjoyment. i imagine that while there are fewer represented protoss in the top 100 ladder that at least 20-40 of the top 100 players could switch races from terran or zerg and practice/play protoss ...and still be in the top 100 in a short time. it's not the race allowing them to be in the top 100. it's the player's skill
lol @ ur argument, please think b4 u post.
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On November 10 2010 09:51 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 09:48 Proximo wrote:On November 10 2010 09:30 Satire wrote:On November 10 2010 06:32 Proximo wrote:
I have read this entire thread, weighed the different arguments and have concluded that Protoss should definitely be nerfed even more.
Toss are obviously the most OP race in SC2. However, the simple, mere mortal players that choose to play Protoss obviously don't have have the cognitive, mental and gaming abilities to play Protoss correctly. Therefore a preemptive nerf is necessary IMO, to prepare for the eventual arrival of the Protoss messiah, who shall one day show us the light and teach us how to play properly.
In conclusion, I would like thank all the Zerg and Terran players, who have taken time out of their busy schedules pwning n00bs and winning tournaments, to come here and enlighten us simple Toss players with their uber theorycrafting.
Much appreciated, my friends.
I, for one, would like to be among the first to welcome our future Protoss overlords. Glad to hear it. We all eagerly await the future Protoss Messiah to come forward and lead us out of noobdom and into the light. Or at least into GSL ro4....
Win.
But there is something very wrong if the most played race is the most underrepresented in the Top 200. Not only that but for GSL 1 it was the most played race and none made it to the ro4.
GSL 2 it was the second most played race, none made it to the ro4.
Most modern tourneys mimic this trend.
Don't sit back and say that it is because there isn't as much high level players playing Protoss atm.
It's the most played race, it's supposed to have the MOST high level players.
I can tell you one thing, there is, a lot of them. But they're being hindered from showing just how good they are because of the blatant underpowerednes that Protoss is in at the moment.
Even if a Protoss won the GSL, it doesn't prove anything..
Remember GSL 1 when Cool won?
Zerg were still Underpowered though... and still received their respective buffs while the other races received nerfs (needed, not complaining) But you can see what I'm getting at? Just because we don't have a 'hero' does not mean that the race is fine.
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Come on, why would pros not enjoy protoss?
Everyone loves forcefield, just ask Sen !
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On November 09 2010 22:09 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 22:04 Wayem wrote:On November 09 2010 21:57 Cloak wrote:
Honestly, it really boils down to Zergling/Roach and Marine/Marauder being much, much, much better units for early game. Speedlings gain automatic map control, cost no gas, and can contend with 4gate level production and afford to expand. Roaches are Roaches. If anyone's played a PvZ as of late, they know how great they are. As for Terran, there's no denying the strength of Marine/Marauder.
Even if Zerg or Terran fast expand, they can still pressure a Toss enough to slow down their expo or defend against any 1 base strat Protoss can throw at them. As of right now, there's no advantage given to Toss until T3. They can't outmuscle or outmacro a smart Zerg/Terran who knows their timings. Toss is pigeonholed into playing the safest of the safe builds (more like build) to have a chance. In PvT I agree with you. It's turtle, tech and hope. In PvZ however... you can't let him macro. When you watch a lot of high level PvZ, you realize that the protoss has to commit to a cheese/all in and hope to do a lot of damage. If he does not, gg, if he does the game is even. There is no way you can gain map control except if you all in. That is the main problem. Idra says that when the protoss will figure out the timings it will be P>Z. I tend to think the opposite (I know this sounds cocky and I know it's surely because I lack some knowledge + I love Idra). When Z will figure out how to manage the 6gate/5gate +1 big push mid game, it will be gg no re. Believe me, I do the 2xStalker pressure before Speedling and blind counter Roach with Robo 2 Immortal push and like 6 gates from a 3gate expand, and he has way too much stuff by the time I can get out and pressure his up and coming third. I'm honestly at a loss. HuK got owned in MLG for doing 3 Gate expand too. Right now there no legitimate answer other than Zerg screwing up or taking massive risks like a 15 Nexus.
If you are doing those pushes correctly, then just keep doing them and backing off.
Gz you just won the game because Z had 1/2 of your economy.
Huk is the worst example to take for PvZ tbh 
Also stalkers/zealots/sentries are insanely good (borderline OP when used at close to full potential), you just need to know how to use them (unlike roaches which are unmicroable).
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On November 10 2010 09:27 jaeds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 09:17 gorath wrote:
How stupid does one have to be to honestly believe that in some weird way all probabilities and statistics just don´t mean anything?!
Its getting ridiculous. statistics that would matter more than the 4% change from 30% -> 25% representation within top 100: 1. how many pro BW players went: zerg, terran, protoss 2. how many pro wc3 players went: zerg, terran, protoss 3. how many professional players have played in tournaments as protoss initially and switched to zerg or terran because of a belief that their race is imbalanced/unable to be successful at higher levels 4. same as 3 above, but started as zerg or terran and switched to a different race. which race
Wouldnt you think that all those players went zerg and terran for a REASON? The top players not only pick races which fit their playstyle. They also pick races which they think have a good chance of giving them a high probability of winning - leading to lesser top pros picking toss.
Also that statistic is significant because even though over 40% of the total player base is protoss, in every top bracket their representation is less than 40 %, (and less than even 33% if I may add).
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On November 10 2010 15:31 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 22:09 Cloak wrote:On November 09 2010 22:04 Wayem wrote:On November 09 2010 21:57 Cloak wrote:
Honestly, it really boils down to Zergling/Roach and Marine/Marauder being much, much, much better units for early game. Speedlings gain automatic map control, cost no gas, and can contend with 4gate level production and afford to expand. Roaches are Roaches. If anyone's played a PvZ as of late, they know how great they are. As for Terran, there's no denying the strength of Marine/Marauder.
Even if Zerg or Terran fast expand, they can still pressure a Toss enough to slow down their expo or defend against any 1 base strat Protoss can throw at them. As of right now, there's no advantage given to Toss until T3. They can't outmuscle or outmacro a smart Zerg/Terran who knows their timings. Toss is pigeonholed into playing the safest of the safe builds (more like build) to have a chance. In PvT I agree with you. It's turtle, tech and hope. In PvZ however... you can't let him macro. When you watch a lot of high level PvZ, you realize that the protoss has to commit to a cheese/all in and hope to do a lot of damage. If he does not, gg, if he does the game is even. There is no way you can gain map control except if you all in. That is the main problem. Idra says that when the protoss will figure out the timings it will be P>Z. I tend to think the opposite (I know this sounds cocky and I know it's surely because I lack some knowledge + I love Idra). When Z will figure out how to manage the 6gate/5gate +1 big push mid game, it will be gg no re. Believe me, I do the 2xStalker pressure before Speedling and blind counter Roach with Robo 2 Immortal push and like 6 gates from a 3gate expand, and he has way too much stuff by the time I can get out and pressure his up and coming third. I'm honestly at a loss. HuK got owned in MLG for doing 3 Gate expand too. Right now there no legitimate answer other than Zerg screwing up or taking massive risks like a 15 Nexus. If you are doing those pushes correctly, then just keep doing them and backing off. Gz you just won the game because Z had 1/2 of your economy. Huk is the worst example to take for PvZ tbh Also stalkers/zealots/sentries are insanely good (borderline OP when used at close to full potential), you just need to know how to use them (unlike roaches which are unmicroable).
Actually, you can burrow micro roaches.
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On November 10 2010 01:57 Mothxal wrote:
Be happy terran still uses T1 units to fight protoss. The game would end up being awful if you had to mass thors or so in late-game, because they're an awkward sort of support unit. Marines are the backbone of the terran army, there are several upgrades to make them powerful up to the end of the game, they're micro-intensive and mostly fun units. Protoss uses T1 units throughout the game as well. Just because you get a few colossi or high templar doesn't mean you have a "T3 army". You use tech-units to augment your main gateway unit force and hope to get an advantage agains t a terran who uses barracks units with some high-tech units as well (ghosts, vikings, medivacs). Terran T1 beats Protoss T3 is just a silly myth.
First of all, you read what you wanted, not the stuff I pointed out. I never said that terran T1 beats protoss T3 - that's what the "Protoss lategame is OP" whine is about, they seem to want terran T1/T2 easily beat toss T3, which would be ridiculous. Also, I never said that I think the MU is broken or something. It is a fact though, that terran uses his T1 to deal actual damage, while toss uses his T1 to tank while his precious T3 does actual damage. Also, vikings / medvacs are neither "high tech", nor "expensive" units. If you don't think that terran bio totally decimate toss gateway units head to head, you can (and probably will) argue, but that's a part of game mechanics atm (which is fine by me).
Be happy terran still uses T1 units to fight protoss. The game would end up being awful if you had to mass thors or so in late-game, because they're an awkward sort of support unit.
I smell a zerg who wants to whine a bit too? 
there are several upgrades to make them powerful up to the end of the game
Righto, stim is only available in late game.
Your whole post seems like "PvT is fine! Zerg is the one that has real troubles".
Note to myself: never again bother to read or post in a single thread about the game balance.
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On November 10 2010 07:20 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 05:49 Treehead wrote:On November 10 2010 04:15 Rea wrote:On November 10 2010 02:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On November 10 2010 02:15 90ti wrote:
ghosts can cloak and hide much easier than the templars, which are basically screaming, "I'M HERE EMP HERE," at which point they turn into useless archons with nerfed attack speed/splash radius. At the minimum the morphing should be faster than it is now.
archon morph was already buffed and they are FAR from useless. they tank more rauderhits then any other P unit and deal very very solid dmg. most underused unit in the game imho. 300 gas, i might add They also only have a range of 2, so against a stutter-stepping terran force being pursued by charge zealots, their chances of getting into range is reasonably small. I'd like to add something here regarding some of the terran complains about toss's "late game deathball". What happened to said late game deathball when Socke used it against Jinro's MMM/Tank army? It sure looked to me as though Jinro stopped it dead in its' tracks, despite being a battle which was near max food for both sides the entire time for something like 20 minutes at MLG Dallas. I could insert "maybe you should use tanks and MMM against toss late game" here, but really - my point is quite simply that even in the hands of ridiculously skilled players, the match is at least even - no more, no less. Or perhaps Socke was doing it wrong? balance talk aside all the statements of "protoss unbeatable army late game" really is massive bullshit lol
Agree with this, don't understand how people can claim Protoss OP in the late game when we go back to my speech about the lack of variety and being dynamic for the other 2 races.
Terran has extreme flexibility in the game, the unit variety (and abilities) as well as unit speed and drops means a good Terran player can take a Protoss on at so many different points at the same time, meanwhile the Protoss ball - once split is decimated. The reason Protoss keep their shit in one big group is because most of the time, splitting your army is instant death.
In the late game (3 expansions+) A terran player is firing off mules all the time, reducing the Terran requirement for SVC's and therefore reducing the food cap for Terran by 10 to 30 food - this is fucking huge and overlooked.
Zerg in the hands of a monster player are an utter economic powerhouse, Broodlords and Ultralisks, frankly - fuck shit up. Colossus, not so much. Plus a good Zerg is using creep all across the map along with well micro'd mutas and Nydus (when you do actually see good Nydus play - it's painful)
Protoss's units as someone said, definitely DO seem like cheese - they have some cool and unique shit like hallucination, forcefield and warp prisms.
Anyhow the long story short is, how is Protoss "unbeatable late game" when the stats say that's not the case? If anything I think Protoss might actually have a chance in the late game - when it resets back to balanced against terran, unlike the early game which is clearly flawed.
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Switch over to zerg. Trust me, you'll never look back. =)
(p.s I'm an ex-toss).
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That's the biggest problem. I don't play much - I'm a watcher, I'm what the community wanted I guess, interest from the mainstream. I'll never be good and it's disheartening. So I watch and enjoy watching a lot, it's very entertaining. However I do like Protoss and you can clearly see them getting fucked by all kinds of shit these past few months :/
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On November 10 2010 18:17 abrasion wrote:
That's the biggest problem. I don't play much - I'm a watcher, I'm what the community wanted I guess, interest from the mainstream. I'll never be good and it's disheartening. So I watch and enjoy watching a lot, it's very entertaining. However I do like Protoss and you can clearly see them getting fucked by all kinds of shit these past few months :/
no offense but if you dont play then it is very hard to take your posts about balance seriously... I agree with them though but one thing is to theorycraft and say that 1 race is UP or OP and the other thing is to actually play and feel that the race is UP/OP or that is hard to tech to x.
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Russian Federation122 Posts
Why are you saying that protoss are doing bad in tournaments? Look, protoss won ESL SC2 Female Cup! That's enough for us, forget about winning GSL or getting to Ro4
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On November 10 2010 18:34 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 18:17 abrasion wrote:
That's the biggest problem. I don't play much - I'm a watcher, I'm what the community wanted I guess, interest from the mainstream. I'll never be good and it's disheartening. So I watch and enjoy watching a lot, it's very entertaining. However I do like Protoss and you can clearly see them getting fucked by all kinds of shit these past few months :/ no offense but if you dont play then it is very hard to take your posts about balance seriously... I agree with them though but one thing is to theorycraft and say that 1 race is UP or OP and the other thing is to actually play and feel that the race is UP/OP or that is hard to tech to x.
no offense but when I watched 5rax reaper I clearly knew that its imbalanced eventhough I never encountered it in my games. I also knew that medivacs were too good, I seldom used them in my games. I knew that Ultras were unstoppable, but I have experienced it in my games rather than watching streams. Guess what, I was right. I'm just casual 3x3 player btw.
You don't need to be top player to have balance opinion. Even top players are sometimes wrong with their balance opinion, because they overcome many balance issues with ease. They are more concerned about timings and mind games.
For now, I think all matchups are pretty balanced in terms of winning chances. But PvT is awful, same boring shit everygame. And I don't think there is a way to change it by evolving strategies. Because both races are stuck where they are. Only balance changes can bring some freshness to matchup, needless to say its very important to succeed in eSports and viewership. Look how amazing TvZ is.
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This discussion is very similar to the zerg threads a few months ago.
I'm betting within two patches protoss will be the strongest race and it will be the terrans complaining about being underpowered. I'm not even kidding.
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EPT
