EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 71
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
The beauty of starcraft is that each race requires a different skill set. True, P has some in-combat abilities like FF that need to be done well. Z has two macro-mechanics (larvae, creep) and must use FG well when using infestors. I'm not really sure what particular skillset is required for T though... lifting bulldings to switch add-ons? | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 10 2010 18:34 Hellye wrote: no offense but if you dont play then it is very hard to take your posts about balance seriously... I agree with them though  but one thing is to theorycraft and say that 1 race is UP or OP and the other thing is to actually play and feel that the race is UP/OP or that is hard to tech to x.People are always welcome to ignore them and I never paint myself as a pro, I'm a chobo. The problem is some of the....'people' here seem to insist that unless you're a 2000+ diamond you're not worth talking to. If I watch as many hours of SC2 as they play SC2, well obviously my opinion still isn't worth theirs but it doesn't mean my opinion is as crap as my ladder ranking. Does this mean that all grid iron fans can't truly appreciate or comment on a penalty unless they've played the game? It's such a ridiculous argument. If you want me to throw out another random one though - Banshee, I'll be very surprised if you don't see a nerf within 3 months, either build time, cloak research time or attack speed. | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
On November 10 2010 19:33 Hellye wrote: if it is the strongest race it will be cause some patch made the other 2 tech paths viable and ppl arent used to fear protoss air or DT route Alternate means of mobile detection (e.g. hallucinationed Observers, for a cost of 75 energy) wouldn't automatically force Protoss into the robo tech tree. But that alone doesn't fix the problems to non-robo tech trees have (P air being completely terrible and Templar tech being split, ridiculous expensive to fully utilize and having a terrible design philosophy of "Archons are just throw-away units."). On November 10 2010 19:48 abrasion wrote: If you want me to throw out another random one though - Banshee, I'll be very surprised if you don't see a nerf within 3 months, either build time, cloak research time or attack speed. A blue post stated that Banshees are going to be looked at. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 10 2010 20:03 Barook wrote: Alternate means of mobile detection (e.g. hallucinationed Observers, for a cost of 75 energy) wouldn't automatically force Protoss into the robo tech tree. But that alone doesn't fix the problems to non-robo tech trees have (P air being completely terrible and Templar tech being split, ridiculous expensive to fully utilize and having a terrible design philosophy of "Archons are just throw-away units."). A blue post stated that Banshees are going to be looked at. Totally agreed with the tech tree problems. This goes back to what I was saying about pure game design. Not numbers or unit sizes or shapes but the core design fundamentals of Starcraft 2. Starcraft 1 was broken, really fleshed out and someone really thought about it in BW War 3 was broken, same thing with TFT I wouldv'e expected SC2 would just be thought out heavily in the first place but based on Dustins "we added cool units and designed around them" comment - well, I guess Heart of the Swarm is what we need. Also on Banshees, I had no idea Blizzard were looking at it - see what I mean? even a Chobo can spot something which seems wrong if you watch enough games, don't discount us - discount the chobos who barely play and barely WATCH - not the ones who watch a heap. | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 10 2010 20:28 Hellye wrote: thing is the majority of people who dont play cant tell how hard it is to do the stuff they talk about. For example in this very thread we saw loads of comments from ppl who i am certain never played protoss saying that to deal with mmm one only needs to tech to HT and to FF the ramp and all that good BS. For the common spectator it may seem simple to do such things and to say that carriers are really good units that get +16 dmg, or that DTs are ridiculously good cause they waste scans when in reality it isnt that simple. I was just stating that the majority of non players doesnt have that capacity to analise games and that takes all the credibility of those who say they dont play at all. Totally agree with you. Look maybe I'm blowing my own trumpet here but I'd like to think all of us huge fan spectators (with a brain) can recognise good play when we see it. Either the commentators help us understand what's sick or the forum posts, or the replays or the hundreds of games we watch. I agree with every single part of your posts, 100% - the recent match(es) with Foxer and KyrixZenith were fucking sick, full spec, baby eating loco - awesome as hell, the micro was off the dial, the pace was awesome, it was just brilliant and I as a chobo not only respect but I understand that and why it's good. When I see a well timed forcefield or a forcefield over a bunker or excellent bounding box trickery with mutas, I know it's good because I watch a lot. When HopeTorture tried that drop to the high ground in Cools gold natural in GSL 1 (final game I think) I respected that play. So yes, a lot of people who don't play much are a bunch of idiots - but we're not all complete fools, our opinion just might be worth listening to, especially if you read forums all day and see hundreds of opinions from hundreds of players. I still maintain that P is weak in the opening game v T and that the overall mobility of the race in the late game is kind of shitty compared to the other 2. There's a fundamental flaw with Terran when they can lose 30 SCV's at an expansion and just mule out of it, they can forget detection and just scan out of it and furthermore the race which has the most defendable natural (T) is also the race with the ability to fast repair the said highly defendable natural. Fundamental game design is off here. EDIT: and FWIW, I also predicted (or at least isolated) a flaw with the nexus HP before the patch which fixed it too, P is too susseptable (sp?) to drops - or at least they were, with their shitty mobility and marauder +armoured stim attacks, P were losing expansions far too quickly - those extra 500 total points was blizzard applying logic and thought to patching and I really respected that patch for not only listening but examining the flaws. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
It would en this all-robo-era | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On November 10 2010 22:21 Widar wrote: I think you should be able to build observers through the gateway. It would en this all-robo-era Too overpowered! We dont need such a big boost. Try to understand that observers are indeed the best scouts/detection in the game. Nevertheless you are right that comming from robo is ridiculous. Being built from nexus or cyber core is more suitable for this as it will delay other stuff we want. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 10 2010 22:37 Hellye wrote: Too overpowered! We dont need such a big boost. Try to understand that observers are indeed the best scouts/detection in the game. Nevertheless you are right that comming from robo is ridiculous. Being built from nexus or cyber core is more suitable for this as it will delay other stuff we want. Agreed, when people QQ for a huge nerf or boost it just takes away from the people who legitimately just want simple balancing. (no offense to the guy who tried to suggest it) We either need some kind of instant detection like Terran or at LEAST a quicker and cheaper way to get the observer - it could be built at the Cybernetics core? or building a Cybernetics core allows you to build the Obs out of the Nexus. If that's 'too powerful' you could have an upgrade to cloaking for the observer perhaps. Alternatively, hallucinated scouts can see invisible units or if sentry casts a force field on top of a cloaked unit then it becomes visible? :/ I dunno. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
"building a Cybernetics core allows you to build the Obs out of the Nexus. " This was actually a really good idea. Or you could build it from TC, SG or Robo just the same? Just to not get forced into robo. It would, however, be stupid, but i quote again "building a Cybernetics core allows you to build the Obs out of the Nexus. " ^ Really good idea | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 10 2010 22:21 Widar wrote: I think you should be able to build observers through the gateway. It would en this all-robo-era Instead of doing something silly like this, why not just move banshee cloak upgrade back to fusion core or increase its research time. The idea of fast cloaked banshee is so stupid, it forces fast lair and robo-tech. It basically narrows down strategic choices of other races. Look at TvT, so many viable openings and tech paths, its entertaining. PvT is rather boring because of those restrictions. | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees. PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing. PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing. Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked. Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. | ||
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KazaDooM
Austria32 Posts
T has 4 Scan, Turret, Raven, EMP Z has 3 Fungal, Spore, Overseer P hast 2 Observer, Cannon Maybe give psystorm detection? or add a spell to the sentry? Or even give Detection to the mothership^^ | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On November 10 2010 23:07 Wayem wrote: Yes there is a problem of detection for protoss. But I don't know if an ob obtained in a different way would be the best answer. PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees. PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing. PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing. Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked. Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. I am not quiet sure about straight up nerfing banshee stealth because that will make zerg not have to fear any pressure from the terran. It would rather be balanced to buff toss stealth detection rather than nerf banshees. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 10 2010 23:25 KazaDooM wrote: Protoss in general has very few options to detect compared to T,Z T has 4 Scan, Turret, Raven, EMP Z has 3 Fungal, Spore, Overseer P hast 2 Observer, Cannon Maybe give psystorm detection? or add a spell to the sentry? Or even give Detection to the mothership^^ Psi-storm detects cloaked units. | ||
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Flummie
Netherlands417 Posts
It can damage cloaked units but it won't detect them  Unlike fungal growth ... | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On November 10 2010 19:44 Morphs wrote: True, P has some in-combat abilities like FF that need to be done well. Z has two macro-mechanics (larvae, creep) and must use FG well when using infestors. I'm not really sure what particular skillset is required for T though... lifting bulldings to switch add-ons? Knowing when to build what, positioning, bio micro etc. There is a vocal minority of protoss (but not limited to protoss) players who will take any opportunity to preach how underpowered their race is, hoping it will become consensus and result in a buff. I think we will see protoss changes soon, however, I expect either Collussus or High templar, if not both, to be nerfed. Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. Banshee "rushing" would still happen, but they wouldn't have cloak. I wouldnt cry about it if it happened, but I don't think Terran has too many more openings to close.... The fact that you must preemptively defend something against a race (like get detection) doesnt mean its overpowered. | ||
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Jirikii
Switzerland13 Posts
Does it? It just hurts them no matter what but doesn't make them visible imo. | ||
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abrasion
Australia722 Posts
On November 10 2010 23:07 Wayem wrote: Yes there is a problem of detection for protoss. But I don't know if an ob obtained in a different way would be the best answer. PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees. PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing. PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing. Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked. Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. I can agree with most of this post, detection is a problem for Protoss simply because it forces a tech path AND costs a lot AND takes so long! Terran detection is just a mouseclick away if you have enough energy. Increasing banshee cloak build time and cost would come a huge way to helping. | ||
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