|
On November 11 2010 06:50 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 04:48 H0i wrote:On November 11 2010 04:29 Huragius wrote:
Like there would be 2 chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War in terran's base while terran would have one marine ? Don't post ridiculous shit.
As for sick whining about PvT, yes its hard for protoss to survive early game. But thats all they need to do.
Last game TvP I gained advantage by timing pushes when he lost two chrono boosted zealots on Steppes of War and lost rallied Immortal. And won due to multi-dropping. If not the mid game multi tasking, I would have lost to another less skilled protoss, because playing against them mid game/late game IS DAMN HARD. And you want to make protoss early game as strong as other races ? Ok, but nerf their late game too. It's not like " buff early game because I only lose at this time of the game".
And another fun fact is that, Terran almost always plays against Protoss with lesser points (checked on multiply accounts of friends who plays Terran's) And difference is like 200 points. So, it seems PvT favours Protoss, not the Terran. Nexus allowing you to make gateway would be a bit crazy, but is your idea of it realistic? No pylon means no food, and for 2 zealots you need 4 food. That means a 6-pool toss style? Trust me it won't be effective. It's much better to just get the pylon. I like the idea but a gateway should require a pylon. Warping in around a nexus without making a pylon would be a better use of it IMO. It is not sure if toss has an advantage late game. Maybe, but 99.9% of the games don't reach late game. Protoss doesn' t just need to reach late game to have a fair chance, they need to reach late game without being behind too far. This never happens. The last argument is simply a load of crap that makes no sense at all, plus because it happens to a few friends that doesn' t mean it always happens. 6 Gate, 1 probe made during gate construction, after gate finishes you get zealot and start building another pylon with probe. You keep using chronoboost on zealots. This would be INSANE fast and not so all-in like 6 pool (due to 1 probe constructed and not losing one to get pool). Obviously to strong on maps like Steppes of War when now terran needs depo before rax.
That will maybe mean terran has to scout at 9. Maybe.
But like I said, if the nexus gets a power field, the gateway should require a pylon. You should not be able to build a gateway if there is no pylon on the field.
|
I would love a buff to the stalker, unfortunately it would probably break PvZ.
|
I've just started playing Zerg on my 2v2 'fun' account and its great. I suggest every Protoss player try it. It's like your playing a completely different, and better game.
I might just make the switch until Protoss is 'fixed' , although I'm not holding my breath.
Lately, it's just not fun playing Toss.
|
On November 11 2010 05:12 Promises wrote:
Blinking DT's would be incredibly sweet but let's face it, probably a bit OP ^^
:D Make DT to have nitro packs x)
|
On November 11 2010 06:53 HuHEN wrote:
I would love a buff to the stalker, unfortunately it would probably break PvZ.
Making stalkers upgrade at a reasonable (ie: +1/+2) amount would not break the matchup, but rather make the stalker less than terrible in the latergame.
|
On November 11 2010 06:53 HuHEN wrote:
I would love a buff to the stalker, unfortunately it would probably break PvZ.
Possibly. However, it depends on the kind of buff. A buff to damage, like 10+5 or 10+6 instead of 10+4 will make stalkers a bit better against roaches, but those are highly effective against protoss already. A buff to armored will not affect lings though.
|
On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Well the statistics do not really agree here. I think that the thread is too much about imbalance though. It would be more important to make protoss more flexible. Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective.
Buffing gateway units would decimate Zerg, unless they made hydras T1 again, and stronger against Collosus.
|
On November 11 2010 06:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 05:12 Promises wrote:
Blinking DT's would be incredibly sweet but let's face it, probably a bit OP ^^ :D Make DT to have nitro packs x)
Na, let DT fly! Oh wait, thats Banshees........
|
I think everyone has forgotten that this thread isn't about their PvT or TvP experiences or whatever.
It's about PvT at the highest level.
PvT at lower levels is more or less balanced. The less skilled Terran players usually won't be good enough to harass you at multiple sides or do a really well timed hard to stop timing push. It is fairly easy for Protoss to get to late game if the Terran isn't aggressive enough.
But that's the thing, at the highest level, Terran will be aggressive. They will harass you to no end or do a deadly timing push down to the second. And as Protoss' response to this is very limited, not to mention one tiny mistake like a slightly bad FF can end the game for you.
|
hold out protoss brothers, we will find a way!
|
On November 11 2010 07:02 Chronicle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 06:55 Huragius wrote:On November 11 2010 05:12 Promises wrote:
Blinking DT's would be incredibly sweet but let's face it, probably a bit OP ^^ :D Make DT to have nitro packs x) Na, let DT fly!
Thats Banshees...
|
On November 11 2010 06:56 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote:On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Well the statistics do not really agree here. I think that the thread is too much about imbalance though. It would be more important to make protoss more flexible. Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective. Buffing gateway units would decimate Zerg, unless they made hydras T1 again, and stronger against Collosus.
Adding 1 or 2 damage to armored on the stalker will not hurt zerg a lot.
|
On November 11 2010 07:06 K3Nyy wrote:
I think everyone has forgotten that this thread isn't about their PvT or TvP experiences or whatever.
It's about PvT at the highest level.
PvT at lower levels is more or less balanced. The less skilled Terran players usually won't be good enough to harass you at multiple sides or do a really well timed hard to stop timing push. It is fairly easy for Protoss to get to late game if the Terran isn't aggressive enough.
But that's the thing, at the highest level, Terran will be aggressive. They will harass you to no end or do a deadly timing push down to the second. And as Protoss' response to this is very limited, not to mention one tiny mistake like a slightly bad FF can end the game for you.
I agree that Protoss at the top level really walks the edge of a knife - it's far easier for Protoss to instantly die than other races due to small mistakes like a missed forcefield, and this results in more Protosses being eliminated due to little errors.
|
On November 11 2010 05:15 HuHEN wrote:
I think we are getting ahead of ourselves, it would be crazy for blizzard to make any drastic changes, IMO the game is damn near balanced, for all we know it will balance itself as the meta-game shifts.
Kinda like the drastic changes made to the Void Ray and nerfing walloffs against Zerg last patch?
On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less.
Even so, Blizz needs to stop reducing the number of openings Protoss can make, Protoss is not UP since there are some units we can rely on to win, but, there is less choice in what units to make and P units are much more vulnerable to good micro than any other race, while simultaneously having less units that can win a fight against superior odds with superior micro.
|
On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less.
Perhaps the mistakes are not so gross. They are only seen as gross because of protoss being less forgiving, so each mistake can cost the protoss the game and be seen as gross. This still qualifies as imbalance though.
Moreover, it's highly unlikely that somehow most or all top level pro protoss players are all making gross mistakes, while the ones from the other 2 races don't, or can get away with them. Sorry but the likelyhood of that statement being true is really low, so low, that balance-wise it should be assumed as false.
|
On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Well the statistics do not really agree here. I think that the thread is too much about imbalance though. It would be more important to make protoss more flexible. Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective.
Actually the statistics mean absolutely nothing. The game is so new and the statistics are so few it puzzles me people are drawing conclusions from them. Nexgenius won Blizzcon, Huk and Socke have won tons of tournaments and TT1 just got second at the MLG finals where Zerg had its highest spot as #5 with TLO. Statistics at this point should only be used complimentary to observation. My observation is that Protoss' are not playing good. If I thought they would be playing good and not winning then statistics will start to have some relevance.
Perhaps the mistakes are not so gross. They are only seen as gross because of protoss being less forgiving, so each mistake can cost the protoss the game and be seen as gross. This still qualifies as imbalance though.
Moreover, it's highly unlikely that somehow most or all top level pro protoss players are all making gross mistakes, while the ones from the other 2 races don't, or can get away with them. Sorry but the likelyhood of that statement being true is really low, so low, that balance-wise it should be assumed as false.
You are making it sound like there are hundreds of top level pro protoss players when in fact there's like 3 in Korea and maybe 4 or so outside of Korea. Of course it is possible they are still making big mistakes this game is like 5 months old. I would say this soon into the game nearly everyone is still making big mistakes so for Protoss to just make a few more here and there isn't far fetched at all.
Also nearly every top level player thinks that PvT is in favor of Protoss. Tournaments haven't shown this yet but it is only a matter of time. These opinions weigh much more strongly than some of the top Protoss players noticeably not pulling through in the games that matter.
|
On November 11 2010 07:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 05:46 H0i wrote:On November 11 2010 05:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I can't say I'm noticing an imbalance. Every time Protoss players get knocked out they are making gross mistakes that the other races aren't making. Seems to me Protoss just needs to play better and complain less. Well the statistics do not really agree here. I think that the thread is too much about imbalance though. It would be more important to make protoss more flexible. Perhaps there is a reason protoss players make mistakes? I am nearing the 2000 diamond playing as random (but I prefer toss), and protoss requires a lot of micro. It's also very tight. One small mistake can cost you the game, while the other races require less of this core micro. Their armies function a lot better with slightly worse micro. There also is the force field. I think the reason tosses lose often is because the game IS pretty balanced with perfect force fields while defending. In a direct confrontation it is a lot harder to make your force fields counts, which makes it hard for toss to simply engage in the middle of the map. With this kind of perfect micro required the game seems balanced when it all works out, but when a slight mistake is made, a toss loses. My suggestion would be to make the game a bit more flexible, observatory after core for 100/50 and a cheap 1st observer like I said before. Besides that a buff to gateway units and a nerf to force fields. This way FF can be used to support. It will still be useful and required if your army is larger, but it will make the toss army in small numbers (where you can' t use FF effectively) more effective. Actually the statistics mean absolutely nothing. The game is so new and the statistics are so few it puzzles me people are drawing conclusions from them. Nexgenius won Blizzcon, Huk and Socke have won tons of tournaments and TT1 just got second at the MLG finals where Zerg had its highest spot as #5 with TLO. Statistics at this point should only be used complimentary to observation. My observation is that Protoss' are not playing good. If I thought they would be playing good and not winning then statistics will start to have some relevance.
Thats all foreigner tournaments though.. In Korea, there hasnt been a protoss in the top 4 of a tournament since when? 1.1.1?
Even that fOu clan tourney yesterday. I doubt we'll see much difference in the next 2 days in Startale and NEX/Zenith.
Outside of NEXgenius winning blizzcon (only one other korean, and Loner being the only other even on a "similar level"), protoss has been banished from any tournaments involving koreans.
|
On November 11 2010 07:38 Skyze wrote:
Thats all foreigner tournaments though.. In Korea, there hasnt been a protoss in the top 4 of a tournament since when? 1.1.1?
Even that fOu clan tourney yesterday. I doubt we'll see much difference in the next 2 days in Startale and NEX/Zenith.
Outside of NEXgenius winning blizzcon (only one other korean, and Loner being the only other even on a "similar level"), protoss has been banished from any tournaments involving koreans.
NexGenius qualified through a tournament in Korea which had a lot of top level GSL players. This tournament was super important and everybody took it as serious as the GSL.
The point is not that because Protoss outside of Korea do well and thus that they should do well inside Korea too, not at all. But that both the foreign scene and the Korean scene can be seen as independent from each other. If you are arguing imbalance then you are implying TT1, Socke and Huk somehow learned faster than their Zerg/Terran peers in the foreign scene, and were able to win tournaments because of this.
Saying that tourney results are influenced this much by the individual skill of these players could also mean that the Zergs/Terrans in Korea may have learned faster than their Protoss peers. Bottom line is it is too early to use statistics are they are meaningless. Protoss players in the GSL are simply not playing as well as their peers. Given time I'm very confident that NexGenius, Inca and Minchul are good enough to perform better in the GSL but that so far they simply have not played up to their own level in it. Especially MinChul has choked pretty hard.
Let me give you a real statistic though, one that is not decided by a few bo3s, over thousands of games MinChul leads the oGs/Liquid ranking nearly every week.
If NexGenius had gotten to the final of GSL2 nobody here would raise their voice. To show you how thin that makes your argument: NexGenius was 2-3 matches away from removing all your balance issues. You can't seriously use these GSL's and think they mean anything statistically.
|
Ignoring the stats and possible imbalance, how about the game design? Do you not think toss has a really limited amount of builds, and that (2/3 gate) robo is the only safe build (not all in) against terran? Don't you think the stargate units are bad overal, compared to the air the other races have?
Don't you think the harass options are too limited?
|
On November 11 2010 07:46 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 07:38 Skyze wrote:
Thats all foreigner tournaments though.. In Korea, there hasnt been a protoss in the top 4 of a tournament since when? 1.1.1?
Even that fOu clan tourney yesterday. I doubt we'll see much difference in the next 2 days in Startale and NEX/Zenith.
Outside of NEXgenius winning blizzcon (only one other korean, and Loner being the only other even on a "similar level"), protoss has been banished from any tournaments involving koreans.
NexGenius qualified through a tournament in Korea which had a lot of top level GSL players. This tournament was super important and everybody took it as serious as the GSL. The point is not that because Protoss outside of Korea do well and thus that they should do well inside Korea too, not at all. But that both the foreign scene and the Korean scene can be seen as independent from each other. If you are arguing imbalance then you are implying TT1, Socke and Huk somehow learned faster than their Zerg/Terran peers in the foreign scene, and were able to win tournaments because of this. Saying that tourney results are influenced this much by the individual skill of these players could also mean that the Zergs/Terrans in Korea may have learned faster than their Protoss peers. Bottom line is it is too early to use statistics are they are meaningless. Protoss players in the GSL are simply not playing as well as their peers. Given time I'm very confident that NexGenius, Inca and Minchul are good enough to perform better in the GSL but that so far they simply have not played up to their own level in it. Especially MinChul has choked pretty hard. Let me give you a real statistic though, one that is not decided by a few bo3s, over thousands of games MinChul leads the oGs/Liquid ranking nearly every week. If NexGenius had gotten to the final of GSL2 nobody here would raise their voice. To show you how thin that makes your argument: NexGenius was 2-3 matches away from removing all your balance issues. You can't seriously use these GSL's and think they mean anything statistically.
I almost feel as we could close the thread to after this statement. I check this thread occasionally and find meaningless post one after another about such and such balance issues.
This was a very well made point, nazgul you might be on your way to being a lawyer and not only a professional gamer. I doubt the OP would read this as there are over a thousand replies to this post but I think I might PM this post you just made so he might as well edit the OP and end this stupid thread.
PS - If I hear one more person talk about making an observer out of a nexus I might just stop coming to TL forums. LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
