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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 11 2010 10:51 alan25 wrote: i think us zergs and toss can unite and say nerf terran No. Terran have had their nerfs, Zerg have been overbuffed but they needed it. Now Protoss needs a buff similar to what zerg got in beta to fix ultralisks. But with protoss its not the viability of 1 unit they need to fix, its around 6. | ||
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rackdude
United States882 Posts
On November 11 2010 09:56 CruelZeratul wrote: 17 and 19 are no significantly high numbers. We need a lot more games to be able to say something about balance on a specific map. Significance has to do with not just the sample size but also the deviation. Maybe the first two don't have it, but the PvZ of 60 games and being 20% off the expected value is also pretty large. Maybe it's not statistically significant, but it sure shows a trend to look at. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
I can't think of a single high-level Protoss game that I've watched that have made me think, "Wow, that race is looking weak." No, they just did something stupid and lost. Or got outplayed. Nazgul won this thread already. On November 11 2010 10:59 Chronicle wrote: No. Terran have had their nerfs, Zerg have been overbuffed but they needed it. Now Protoss needs a buff similar to what zerg got in beta to fix ultralisks. But with protoss its not the viability of 1 unit they need to fix, its around 6. Buff 6 units? Dude what kind of retarded shit are you posting? | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:09 alan25 wrote: have you guys actually watched nexgenius games vs hopetorture, he never played like he did vs loner he kept doing these retarded all-in strategies for no reason at all when he has shown he is good with macro 2base colossus, he went for either voidray or blinkstalker... like wtf, does anyone even know why Again, the main goal of this thread is to make non-robo tech not all-in strategies. As it is now, most people (including you) are saying that all strategies that doesn't involve robo "retarded all-in strategies". | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
PDD makes my stalkers cry. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 11 2010 10:32 Polatrite wrote: The Void Ray nerf has absolutely no effect on what you're describing - unless your opponent is extremely bad, he will definitely not allow a charged void anywhere near a banshee, cloaked or not. PERFECT, I can mine in peace. On November 11 2010 10:32 Polatrite wrote:If your void is charging on a building and he does not have the 4 marines present to defend against it, he will move the banshees away and kite the void ray with no problems. What? How is the banshee going to kite the VR? it doesn't shoot air. Is he going to kite with the marines? guess what, VR has the same range, and has more range if they move away. If he wants to throw his banshee at my VR to save his SCVs, more power to him. If he wants to run away from my base with the VR in between the banshee and the mineral line, PERFECT. Marines don't do burst damage. I'm not going to be dumb enough to get far enough away from where I can't just keep killing his SCVs. On November 11 2010 10:32 Polatrite wrote:The void ray nerf only diminishes the ability for the void ray to level bases rapidly, and it actually has a POSITIVE effect on both the scenarios you're presenting - killing marines and killing banshees, as the void ray typically won't be charged for either of these scenarios anyways. Seriously, attacking marines with uncharged VRs, period, is a dumb idea. It's so easy to just charge up your VRs on a building, guess what, the Marines are going to come right for you and when you charge they probably stimmed, so they die faster. Do you realize that a charged VR, pre nerf, actually did so much damage that stim didn't help marines? Now of course that's different. Stimmed marines RAPE void rays. If you had equal marines to equal uncharged VRs, guess, what, the VRs were going to win even pre patch. How about Turrets? Good luck mate. Before you had a chance against a single turret, if you had 4 charged VRs, you would probably lose one but you'd take down the turret, now, forget it. In any case, it is not so much that the VR can shoot the banshee. Its' that VRs forced the other player to respond, changing his BO so you could build units to counter his. Now they don't. They just float around and get lol'd at. If there's VRs in your base, one production cycle later and you're fine. And even if you don't plan on massing VRs, guess what? that tech switch of his, just bought you time to tech switch yourself. So you got a Stargate for free, expanding your tech tree, and now you can pump phoenix or carriers or whatever you want and be fine. Maybe they don't need to demolish his base as fast as they used to. But there's absolutely no point in lowering the damage below that of an Immortal. Any timing push that VRs could use, Immortals can use. Any problems from massed Void Rays, you're going to have from mass Immortals. Oooh, VRs can fly? that just means you can't build as many VRs as Immortals on the same bases. Hooray. | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
On November 11 2010 10:59 Chronicle wrote: No. Terran have had their nerfs, Zerg have been overbuffed but they needed it. Now Protoss needs a buff similar to what zerg got in beta to fix ultralisks. But with protoss its not the viability of 1 unit they need to fix, its around 6. overbuffed? +1range for a unit that terran can counter with everything besides helion, and +some hp on some buildings so muaraders take 7 seconds instead of 5 seconds to destroy and cripple the zerg entire zerg/economy for an entire 1-2min of the game. have you seen blue flame helion suicide worker lines or vs lings? thats imbalance | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
Forcefield: 75 energy Colossus Range incresed to 8 from 7 (Remove upgrade) Stalker +4base damage(-4 armored) (early game units need some sort of help, relying on FF sucks, especially now that i nerfed it) Hallucination cost 50/50 Dark shrine cost 200/150 Allow for Hallucinated observers for detection. Viking range Reduce from 9 to 8. Viking speed increased a by about 20% | ||
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AcTiVillain
Australia81 Posts
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:05 Subversion wrote: Buff 6 units? Dude what kind of retarded shit are you posting? Learn 2 Read. Fixing Viability of units does not mean a buff to said units, means a buff to their viability like what the Ultralisk got in beta. For a more recent example see the Void Ray nerf last patch, they attempted to adjust the units viability unchanged and nerfing its insane changed state. However now the unit is near worthless like the rest of the stargate tech as it was a gimmick used only as an expensive flying reaper. Thats what needs fixing, the purpose of the units Protoss has. For example atm protoss has no air control vs Terran, every stargate unit looses to vikings ontop of them also countering colossi. Thats why if a Protoss has to tech switch from robo, they MUST for for high templar as switching from robo to stargate is countered by the vikings that already exist. For zerg same as above, just replace the word "Viking" with "Corruptor". Edit - On November 11 2010 11:19 Uncultured wrote: What I would like to see slowly implemented for over the next few months and beyond. Forcefield: 75 energy Colossus Range incresed to 8 from 7 (Remove upgrade) Stalker +4base damage(-4 armored) (early game units need some sort of help, relying on FF sucks, especially now that i nerfed it) Hallucination cost 50/50 Dark shrine cost 200/150 Allow for Hallucinated observers for detection. Viking range Reduce from 9 to 8. Viking speed increased a by about 20% And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:11 dragonblade369 wrote: Again, the main goal of this thread is to make non-robo tech not all-in strategies. As it is now, most people (including you) are saying that all strategies that doesn't involve robo "retarded all-in strategies". ya but other races are limited to certain trees also in certain matchups | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:20 AcTiVillain wrote: Protoss could use an early game buff against Terrans, but how to buff protoss early game without making them too good vs Zerg sounds pretty hard to me A buff to zealot speed to make them faster than unstimmed marines/marauders but still slower than lings or roaches on creep seems like a solid start to me. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:24 Chronicle wrote: And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. Never said it would balance the game. Nobody can theorycraft what will "balance" the game at this state. I said I'd like to see it. PS I'm not in gold. Nice ad-hominem against an argument I wasn't even debating though. Classy. PSS. Blizzards has stated what it balances around. And It's not the gold league either. | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:24 Chronicle wrote: Learn 2 Read. Fixing Viability of units does not mean a buff to said units, means a buff to their viability like what the Ultralisk got in beta. For a more recent example see the Void Ray nerf last patch, they attempted to adjust the units viability unchanged and nerfing its insane changed state. However now the unit is near worthless like the rest of the stargate tech as it was a gimmick used only as an expensive flying reaper. Thats what needs fixing, the purpose of the units Protoss has. For example atm protoss has no air control vs Terran, every stargate unit looses to vikings ontop of them also countering colossi. Thats why if a Protoss has to tech switch from robo, they MUST for for high templar as switching from robo to stargate is countered by the vikings that already exist. For zerg same as above, just replace the word "Viking" with "Corruptor". Edit - And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. the thing is, colossus dominate every single damn unit on the ground besides thor or ultra but even then... air vs colosus is a hard counter and probably their only weakness it's quite the trade off during those types of battles, if i mass corrupters or vikings my ground army will be weakened that your gateway units alone could probably kill it, its very crippling to go corruptor or to a lesser extent viking to begin with | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:32 Uncultured wrote: Never said it would balance the game. Nobody can theorycraft what will "balance" the game at this state. I said I'd like to see it. PS I'm not in gold. Nice ad-hominem against an argument I wasn't even debating though. Classy. Then why bother posting it? If you want to post stupidity for the sake of stupidity 4chan is that way. BTW Sorry for calling you out as a gold leaguer, didn't realize you were Silver. Edit - Heres another one. On November 11 2010 11:33 alan25 wrote: And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. the thing is, colossus dominate every single damn unit on the ground besides thor or ultra but even then... air vs colosus is a hard counter and probably their only weakness it's quite the trade off during those types of battles, if i mass corrupters or vikings my ground army will be weakened that your gateway units alone could probably kill it, its very crippling to go corruptor or to a lesser extent viking to begin with No. Colossi beat Lings, Hydras, Marines, Zealots and thats about it excluding other Colossi. Everything else will beat them cost for cost. They are overrated and only good with mass forcefields to stop them being attacked, and to poke at armys with their upgraded 9 range. There is a reason no-one EVER uses 6 range colossi, they are a bad unit. The 2 units in the game that can dominate everything not just on the ground but the Air too are the Marine and Mutalisk. Low and behold, neither of those units are Protoss ones, go figure. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
Thanks for pointing out the numbers error though. Colossus range increased from 6 to 7, upgrade to 8. | ||
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mEatBucket
Sweden45 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:32 Uncultured wrote: Never said it would balance the game. Nobody can theorycraft what will "balance" the game at this state. I said I'd like to see it. PS I'm not in gold. Nice ad-hominem against an argument I wasn't even debating though. Classy. PSS. Blizzards has stated what it balances around. And It's not the gold league either. Sadly what they do and say is not the same thing, SC2 as it is right now is being balanced around casual players (gold). The huge nerf to the Void Ray is a good example of this (VR; the bronze toss answer for everything). | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
On November 11 2010 11:34 Chronicle wrote: Then why bother posting it? If you want to post stupidity for the sake of stupidity 4chan is that way. BTW Sorry for calling you out as a gold leaguer, didn't realize you were Silver. Edit - Heres another one. No. Colossi beat Lings, Hydras, Marines, Zealots and thats about it excluding other Colossi. Everything else will beat them cost for cost. They are overrated and only good with mass forcefields to stop them being attacked, and to poke at armys with their upgraded 9 range. There is a reason no-one EVER uses 6 range colossi, they are a bad unit. The 2 units in the game that can dominate everything not just on the ground but the Air too are the Marine and Mutalisk. Low and behold, neither of those units are Protoss ones, go figure. marine doesn't beat blue flame helion, mutalisk gets owned by phoenixes | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Axcept forcefield usage, protoss don't have any unit wich, with a poor->average->good->godly->foxer micro will improve its effectiveness by 300%. I'm not a very good protoss player, but the battle usualy consist of : - good placement of units (same for every race) - a move - forcefields - if I have time, focus armored with immortal and babyseat colossi Writing this, I figure that a good colossi micro is important (I include focus fire and where to target in "micro") because it can change the outcome of the battle. But when you compare to what a terran or a zerg have to do (perhaps less for a zerg, not sure) it's very basic. As no patch can change this, I hope the expansion will bring something like the reaver or I don't know, any unit that will become more and more powerful when you'll micro beter and beter. edit : blink stalkers are that kind of unit, but usualy it's a blink stalker build so it's not exactly the same imo. | ||
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