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On November 11 2010 11:45 alan25 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 11:34 Chronicle wrote:On November 11 2010 11:32 Uncultured wrote:On November 11 2010 11:24 Chronicle wrote:On November 11 2010 11:19 Uncultured wrote:
What I would like to see slowly implemented for over the next few months and beyond.
Forcefield: 75 energy
Colossus Range incresed to 8 from 7 (Remove upgrade)
Stalker +4base damage(-4 armored) (early game units need some sort of help, relying on FF sucks, especially now that i nerfed it)
Hallucination cost 50/50
Dark shrine cost 200/150
Allow for Hallucinated observers for detection.
Viking range Reduce from 9 to 8.
Viking speed increased a by about 20%
And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. Never said it would balance the game. Nobody can theorycraft what will "balance" the game at this state. I said I'd like to see it. PS I'm not in gold. Nice ad-hominem against an argument I wasn't even debating though. Classy. Then why bother posting it? If you want to post stupidity for the sake of stupidity 4chan is that way. BTW Sorry for calling you out as a gold leaguer, didn't realize you were Silver. Edit - Heres another one. On November 11 2010 11:33 alan25 wrote:
And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers.
the thing is, colossus dominate every single damn unit on the ground besides thor or ultra but even then... air vs colosus is a hard counter and probably their only weakness it's quite the trade off during those types of battles, if i mass corrupters or vikings my ground army will be weakened that your gateway units alone could probably kill it, its very crippling to go corruptor or to a lesser extent viking to begin with No. Colossi beat Lings, Hydras, Marines, Zealots and thats about it excluding other Colossi. Everything else will beat them cost for cost. They are overrated and only good with mass forcefields to stop them being attacked, and to poke at armys with their upgraded 9 range. There is a reason no-one EVER uses 6 range colossi, they are a bad unit. The 2 units in the game that can dominate everything not just on the ground but the Air too are the Marine and Mutalisk. Low and behold, neither of those units are Protoss ones, go figure. marine doesn't beat blue flame helion, mutalisk gets owned by phoenixes
Marine micro'd can beat any ground unit, See Foxer. Mutalisk do NOT get owned by Phoenix's, Phoenix's get owned by muta unless they muta are running away. In a straight up battle Mutalisks beat Phoenix's unless it is 1 phoenix vs 1 Mutalisk, which NEVER happens.
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marine doesn't beat blue flame helion
Protoss bretheren, cease this thread immediately. Next time we are facing early marine pressure, we just have to make blue flame hellions. How did we not think of that already!
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The problem, i think, is we don't have a good 'tanking' unit. Early game, roaches can soak up marine dps fairly well + surround with lings, whereas every gateway unit the toss has MELTS to MM
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On November 11 2010 11:26 alan25 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 11:11 dragonblade369 wrote:On November 11 2010 11:09 alan25 wrote:
have you guys actually watched nexgenius games vs hopetorture, he never played like he did vs loner he kept doing these retarded all-in strategies for no reason at all when he has shown he is good with macro 2base colossus, he went for either voidray or blinkstalker... like wtf, does anyone even know why Again, the main goal of this thread is to make non-robo tech not all-in strategies. As it is now, most people (including you) are saying that all strategies that doesn't involve robo "retarded all-in strategies". ya but other races are limited to certain trees also in certain matchups
What are you talking about... Not for Terran and Zergs. Terran will be making units from Barrack, factory and starport. It doesn't matter what match up. There may be some units that are less used but they will never exclude an entire tech path. As for zerg, you just need one building and you're set. The only tech that some zergs might skip is the Hydralisk den which is very useful in certain situation.
Also, by no mean, if a zerg goes to hydra for example, people will lable it "retarded all-in". While any non-robo protoss tech path against Terran will be labeled as "retarded all-in"
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On November 11 2010 10:58 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Fruiterdealer lost early and TOP didn't qualify. What kind of a terrible argument is it that when a single player loses it is proof of the game being imbalanced? This is such clueless stuff please stop posting about things you don't understand.
I think it's more useful to look at trends in game situations than the success or lack thereof of individual players.
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i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently.
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On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently.
Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?.....
I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah.
I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only race that can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal.
Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous.
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On November 11 2010 15:41 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently. Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?..... I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah. I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only one who can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal. Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous.
I agree with this post 100 and 50 thousand percent!!! lol
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On November 11 2010 11:20 AcTiVillain wrote:
Protoss could use an early game buff against Terrans, but how to buff protoss early game without making them too good vs Zerg sounds pretty hard to me
If we buff protoss gateway units any, we have to delay Warp Gate tech. Putting it on the Twilight Council would also effectively delay Blink. This makes Protoss stronger defensively, which lets Protoss tech more freely. I have seen people 4 gate proxy before though :D
Cannon needs +1 range, but so does every other static defense in the game.
But I think the better option to both is just to nerf marauder damage, and then we can put roach range back to 3.
Any Hallucination buff would just require detection and possibly micro. Spore Colony ezpz.
Colossus definitely needs a nerf, it shuts down zerg hydra play too well. A nerf would help zerglings early game. Late game, they critical mass no matter how much you nerf the damage, it just reduces the overall size of the army. Which helps zerg.
Immortal is countered by roach for cost.
Carrier won't effect early game.
Psi Storm/Archon won't effect early game.
Mothership won't effect early game.
Void Ray wouldn't be any worse than Banshee.
Dark templar would just require detection (damn things are EXPENSIVE!)
I think Zerg could use a few buffs as well midgame. Which is where most of the 'suddenly, not useless!" protoss changes would hit zerg.
I've made a test map on battle.net with some balance changes I'd like to see. just search for "GoldenH". I took Xel Naga Caverns and changed the unit stats. I think people should look at maps like this to see if their balance changes will really make a difference.
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On November 11 2010 15:41 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently. Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?..... I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah. I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only race that can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal. Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous.
QF
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T
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 11 2010 07:33 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +Perhaps the mistakes are not so gross. They are only seen as gross because of protoss being less forgiving, so each mistake can cost the protoss the game and be seen as gross. This still qualifies as imbalance though.
Moreover, it's highly unlikely that somehow most or all top level pro protoss players are all making gross mistakes, while the ones from the other 2 races don't, or can get away with them. Sorry but the likelyhood of that statement being true is really low, so low, that balance-wise it should be assumed as false. You are making it sound like there are hundreds of top level pro protoss players when in fact there's like 3 in Korea and maybe 4 or so outside of Korea. Of course it is possible they are still making big mistakes this game is like 5 months old. I would say this soon into the game nearly everyone is still making big mistakes so for Protoss to just make a few more here and there isn't far fetched at all. Also nearly every top level player thinks that PvT is in favor of Protoss. Tournaments haven't shown this yet but it is only a matter of time. These opinions weigh much more strongly than some of the top Protoss players noticeably not pulling through in the games that matter.
What is it a pro player for you? Do you consider Foxer a pro player? I take it not, otherwise anyone could be a pro player if they only were able to go that far in a tournament like GSL. However, protoss would have a harder time doing it due to imbalances, thus giving the impression protoss has less pro players.
About the 2nd part, i don't know where you got that. Did you talk with them personally? I was under the impression it was the other way around.
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Yes guys let's question the guy living in Korea and interacting with TL-oGs which has some of the best players in the world.
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On November 11 2010 11:50 Chronicle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 11:45 alan25 wrote:On November 11 2010 11:34 Chronicle wrote:On November 11 2010 11:32 Uncultured wrote:On November 11 2010 11:24 Chronicle wrote:On November 11 2010 11:19 Uncultured wrote:
What I would like to see slowly implemented for over the next few months and beyond.
Forcefield: 75 energy
Colossus Range incresed to 8 from 7 (Remove upgrade)
Stalker +4base damage(-4 armored) (early game units need some sort of help, relying on FF sucks, especially now that i nerfed it)
Hallucination cost 50/50
Dark shrine cost 200/150
Allow for Hallucinated observers for detection.
Viking range Reduce from 9 to 8.
Viking speed increased a by about 20%
And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers. Never said it would balance the game. Nobody can theorycraft what will "balance" the game at this state. I said I'd like to see it. PS I'm not in gold. Nice ad-hominem against an argument I wasn't even debating though. Classy. Then why bother posting it? If you want to post stupidity for the sake of stupidity 4chan is that way. BTW Sorry for calling you out as a gold leaguer, didn't realize you were Silver. Edit - Heres another one. On November 11 2010 11:33 alan25 wrote:
And this people is the reason blizzard should stop balancing around the gold league, because then they come in here thinking they can balance when they do not even know their numbers.
the thing is, colossus dominate every single damn unit on the ground besides thor or ultra but even then... air vs colosus is a hard counter and probably their only weakness it's quite the trade off during those types of battles, if i mass corrupters or vikings my ground army will be weakened that your gateway units alone could probably kill it, its very crippling to go corruptor or to a lesser extent viking to begin with No. Colossi beat Lings, Hydras, Marines, Zealots and thats about it excluding other Colossi. Everything else will beat them cost for cost. They are overrated and only good with mass forcefields to stop them being attacked, and to poke at armys with their upgraded 9 range. There is a reason no-one EVER uses 6 range colossi, they are a bad unit. The 2 units in the game that can dominate everything not just on the ground but the Air too are the Marine and Mutalisk. Low and behold, neither of those units are Protoss ones, go figure. marine doesn't beat blue flame helion, mutalisk gets owned by phoenixes Marine micro'd can beat any ground unit, See Foxer. Mutalisk do NOT get owned by Phoenix's, Phoenix's get owned by muta unless they muta are running away. In a straight up battle Mutalisks beat Phoenix's unless it is 1 phoenix vs 1 Mutalisk, which NEVER happens.
that's simply not true. most of the times your mutas wont even hit the phoenixes unless you fuck something up.
I don't know where you're from but you're welcome to test this out with me. mutas vs phoenixes, cost for cost. me protoss, you zerg. you won't win a single fight out of 100. 100% guaranteed.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 11 2010 15:48 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 15:41 Hellye wrote:On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently. Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?..... I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah. I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only one who can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal. Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous. I agree with this post 100 and 50 thousand percent!!! lol
You can open phoenix, void ray OR dt and still not auto-die to banshee; you can have a robo in time with all these options. Yes, if you all-in with any of these you will auto-die to banshee but - whatever?
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On November 11 2010 09:33 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 09:28 abrasion wrote:On November 11 2010 00:36 Treehead wrote:On November 11 2010 00:07 abrasion wrote:On November 10 2010 23:07 Wayem wrote:
Yes there is a problem of detection for protoss. But I don't know if an ob obtained in a different way would be the best answer.
PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees.
PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing.
PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing.
Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked.
Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. I can agree with most of this post, detection is a problem for Protoss simply because it forces a tech path AND costs a lot AND takes so long! Terran detection is just a mouseclick away if you have enough energy. Increasing banshee cloak build time and cost would come a huge way to helping. Banshees already take 60 seconds to build. Any longer and they'd be up there with the Colossus. Edit: and actually 2-3 chrono boosts on a Colossus makes the build time on the two roughly equivalent. I don't think build time is the correct avenue for any adjustments to be made. It's not just the unit build time, it's the barracks, factory, starport, lab build times and costs - the Banshee is quick to get to. Regardless, according to another poster in this thread Blizzard are looking at the Banshee. My prediction was correct. Well, if a poster says so...
Nice try looking clever, except Blizzards already said they are looking at it.
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On November 11 2010 23:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 15:48 .kv wrote:On November 11 2010 15:41 Hellye wrote:On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently. Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?..... I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah. I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only one who can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal. Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous. I agree with this post 100 and 50 thousand percent!!! lol You can open phoenix, void ray OR dt and still not auto-die to banshee; you can have a robo in time with all these options. Yes, if you all-in with any of these you will auto-die to banshee but - whatever?
But coming out ahead or at least on equal footing? I'd like to see this done..
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Sweden33719 Posts
Link plz, I want to see.
On November 11 2010 23:22 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 09:33 nam nam wrote:On November 11 2010 09:28 abrasion wrote:On November 11 2010 00:36 Treehead wrote:On November 11 2010 00:07 abrasion wrote:On November 10 2010 23:07 Wayem wrote:
Yes there is a problem of detection for protoss. But I don't know if an ob obtained in a different way would be the best answer.
PvT: banshees are an issue. Cloack ghosts too but this tends to be end game so let's assume you'll have your robo anyway. So: banshees.
PvZ: you can basically guess what the Z does by poking in front of his entrance. Example: mass spines / speelings = mutas. The problem here is nor detection (you'll tend to get immortals for burrow roaches) nor scouting. You can have an ob end game on top of his base and maphack this wouldn't solve the problem of mass tech switching at all. So: nothing.
PvP: dark templars obviously. But you tend to go robo for colossi anyway. If not, air suxx pvp (phoenix are ridiculous vs colossi) and HT are lol. So if you go for example blink stalkers/chargelots build a forge early/mid game and later get your robo while you get colossi on 2/3 robos with multi bases anyway. So: nothing.
Problem of detection lies mainly in banshees. Why do they need cloack ? Not for much... if it's available as it is, it's kind of "win right now or lose resources" for the terran as all protoss have to go robo. If they don't, they lose, if they do banshees are not more threatening as uncloaked.
Therefore, I don't suggest to remove cloak for banshees from the game (it would be sad) but delay it even more. Just but a fusion core requirement like I think it was during early beta. And here you are. If T rushes it you'll have a much more solid economy. If he gets it late game for expo harassing purposes, you're supposed to have observers (interesting possibilites with scan/snipe) or canons. I can agree with most of this post, detection is a problem for Protoss simply because it forces a tech path AND costs a lot AND takes so long! Terran detection is just a mouseclick away if you have enough energy. Increasing banshee cloak build time and cost would come a huge way to helping. Banshees already take 60 seconds to build. Any longer and they'd be up there with the Colossus. Edit: and actually 2-3 chrono boosts on a Colossus makes the build time on the two roughly equivalent. I don't think build time is the correct avenue for any adjustments to be made. It's not just the unit build time, it's the barracks, factory, starport, lab build times and costs - the Banshee is quick to get to. Regardless, according to another poster in this thread Blizzard are looking at the Banshee. My prediction was correct. Well, if a poster says so... Nice try looking clever, except Blizzards already said they are looking at it.
On November 11 2010 23:25 QuantumTheory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 23:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 11 2010 15:48 .kv wrote:On November 11 2010 15:41 Hellye wrote:On November 11 2010 15:25 Oldboysctv wrote:
i think its mainly because of the queing mechanic that protoss doesnt have. terran can que their units in buildings,as in press 5 aaaaaaa or whatever they want to build same with zerg, then they wait and then the units comes out, for protoss its slightly different, they must go to a spot and then warp in units. now of course this only applies in pro level and the difference is so slight, but makes a difference over a longer game.
also i predict that someone will come along and play protoss completely different then the way it is being played now, kinda like what boxer did your terran and changed the game around for protoss, i feel the protoss ( which is what i play) needs to be used in a different way somehow. i dont have the answer now the apm to pull it off but it just get that feeling like it should play differently. Just like zerg had to play different before the patch?..... I am not saying our units are underpowered, i am saying there is a design flaw in the protoss tech tree and it should be dealth with. And to try to predict something is in my opinion ridiculous, we have to analize what has happen and deal with it. Not hope for a messiah. I like to ask nazgul what he thinks about how protoss is the only one who can flat lose blind opening BO wise without being greedy or anything. Just open anything else other than a robo and one loses to banshee, tries to get observer out first and one loses to thor rush. No way to scout it, you just lose right there. Do we need to play all the first 4min of every game in the same way? The only way genius went that far in gsl was cause nobody was expecting him to open anything else. He lost not cause he played bad, lack of micro or made grave mistakes but he just open non robo->immortal. Is this what we want protoss sc2 to be about? We make all these cool units ( HT, Mothership, Carrier) and we cant use it. ridiculous. I agree with this post 100 and 50 thousand percent!!! lol You can open phoenix, void ray OR dt and still not auto-die to banshee; you can have a robo in time with all these options. Yes, if you all-in with any of these you will auto-die to banshee but - whatever? But coming out ahead? I'd like to see this done..
Yes, you come out ahead/even if you go DT expo with robo vs banshee. Phoenix robo of course comes up a head as you get expo and rape his banshees hard ;/
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On November 11 2010 23:01 tangwhat wrote:
Yes guys let's question the guy living in Korea and interacting with TL-oGs which has some of the best players in the world.
Yeah, what the fuck guys. Protoss isn't underpowered. Marauders aren't overpowered. The sole reason marauders are so strong is to balance out collosus/ht's. They are the tanking unit, marines actually deliver the DPS. But many people seem to forget that. 1 zealot takes 16 marauder shells to kill. 10 zealots with 10 stalkers wins decisively against 20 marauders(with concussive and micro) You just need to get your unit compositions down as a protoss player. I'm sick of whining 'toss player who skip the first zealot and then cry they lose to 2 marauder 1 marine pushes. With your (observer) how hard can it be to adjust your unit composition? Today I won against this 2100 'toss player who whined about a haevy marine composition. Because of my early pressure(he skipped zealot) I forced him into make 1/2 immortals. Instead of 2 tech lab 1 reactor. I went for 2 reactors(using the one on the starport and get a raven instead) When he expanden I just atacked with 20 marines or so and a few marauders and absolutely destroyed his composition wich included like 3 immortals. Come on man on the replay I saw you seeing those 2 reactors, why continue to produce immortals?
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On November 11 2010 23:27 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 23:01 tangwhat wrote:
Yes guys let's question the guy living in Korea and interacting with TL-oGs which has some of the best players in the world. Yeah, what the fuck guys. Protoss isn't underpowered. Marauders aren't overpowered. The sole reason marauders are so strong is to balance out collosus/ht's. They are the tanking unit, marines actually deliver the DPS. But many people seem to forget that. 1 zealot takes 16 marauder shells to kill. 10 zealots with 10 stalkers wins decisively against 20 marauders(with concussive) You just need to get your unit compositions down as a protoss player. I'm sick of whining 'toss player who skip the first zealot and then cry they lose to 2 marauder 1 marine pushes.
Rage explosion deflected.
In actuality if you add a tiny bit of micro to that battle Marauders come out on top.
Does that make your argument null and void?
Perhaps, but I'm taking a different approach.
How about instead of thinking the reason Toss isn't balanced is because it's T's fault, how about question the design of the race as a whole. Protoss is far too restricted because of the multiple BO losses that can occur.
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EPT
