EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 39
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Hann1bal
United States46 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On November 03 2010 22:33 Ballistixz wrote: without that shrine think of how powerful DTs would be. if all you needed was the council then you have instant access to make permanent cloaked units at any time or at any point you so choose. that would be very imbalanced. the shrine is there for a reason. and it did get a buff, it use to take 110 seconds to build u know. DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes. I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
In the first GSL terran had too big a advantage over protoss because of the fast medivacs and stuff like nexus sniping. Since 1.1.2 it's imo fine. Also PvP being the most luckbased matchup of all 9 isn't good for protoss imo. If a mirror is very skillfull good players tend to constantly win against the weaker ones. With PvP it's a lot more about build order luck and just simple mirrors that it's quite possible for a great P to get knocked out by a lesser P, this in return lowers the chance for the race to do well in a big tournament. Overall P might slightly weaker then the other 2 races balance wise (though I can't really say for sure) but the lack of results was just a bit unlucky imo. PvZ also happened to have changed alot for P in 1.1.2 which may have led to some Ps not having updated their strats properly yet. Also as bad as P is doing in korean tournaments, they are doing the best probably in american and european based tourneys. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 03 2010 22:33 Ballistixz wrote: without that shrine think of how powerful DTs would be. if all you needed was the council then you have instant access to make permanent cloaked units at any time or at any point you so choose. that would be very imbalanced. the shrine is there for a reason. and it did get a buff, it use to take 110 seconds to build u know. You realize that DTs AND HTs both "only" require the archives in BW, yes? And you also realize that in BW the two dominating players play terran (Flash) and zerg (Jaedong) yes? (Not claiming toss is UP in BW, just stating the fact that DTs coming without their "own" building doesn't make them imba in BW) The problem with this is, though, that I'd be fine with weak harass IF protoss had the strongest early game. But they have not. In BW there's a reason why terran have vultures and not toss...because toss early on is stronger and terran has to slowly re-claim the map with tanks. Therefore terran needs to be annoying with mines. In SC2 marauders dominate everything early on, yet STILL terran has the harassment-possibilities and not toss. Doesn't make sense gameplay-wise, you rarely see terran use hellions or banshees for harassment-purposes vs toss, simply because they have mapcontrol with MM anyways. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
zerg has baneling drops. toss still have storm drops but toss players have yet to see the potential of warp prisms... and enourmous cost? warp prisms are not that costly. all u need is a robo bay and most toss have that by default for collousus/observers. with warp prisms u can drop temps AND warp in other units to assist in dmg. drop 4 templars to storm_warp them into archons once they are done AND then warp in 4 chargelots at the same time from ONE prism. one prism can cause heavy dmg. Warp Prism is 200 mineral AND opportunity cost of not building a Colossus, Observer, or Immortal. 4 Templar is 200 mineral 600 gas Warp-in units cost money too, and they won't be able to be carried away by Warp Prism. Either this drop HAS to deal enough damage for its worth before it dies, or it needs to outright win the game. Is it plausible? Maybe, but it just seems very unlikely to do that much damage assuming both players are equally skilled | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
I would love it if a dark templar would get an ability that's something like: increases armor by 8 for 3 seconds (researchable at the dark shrine). This would give them a window to escape the more prevalent detection in lategame, when they start to become weaker. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 03 2010 22:40 Ballistixz wrote: zerg has baneling drops. toss still have storm drops but toss players have yet to see the potential of warp prisms... and enourmous cost? warp prisms are not that costly. all u need is a robo bay and most toss have that by default for collousus/observers. with warp prisms u can drop temps AND warp in other units to assist in dmg. drop 4 templars to storm_warp them into archons once they are done AND then warp in 4 chargelots at the same time from ONE prism. one prism can cause heavy dmg. Do you even realize how much resources and time does it cost to make that harass? Please try to think of other factors before you throw random bullshit. For example: The protoss will have robo+High Templar tech after 25 min mark if lucky. By that time its better to roll over terran army without any harass. But as you know protoss has really hard time to live that long due to constant pressure by mm/roach/ling. That said, Warp prism 200 min, 4 HTs 600 min/600 gas, 4 zeals 400 mineral. If there is PF its guaranteed that you will lose zealots and no way you kill the natural. Compare it to cloaked banshee (150 min/100 gas), easier and cheaper to tech. You can get it really fast before 10 min mark. It can do same amount of damage. Requires less micro. And most importantly terran can walloff, put a bunker while doing that harass. Protoss always has to keep good amount of army at his base, because of shitty static defense. | ||
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Bouja
Canada33 Posts
I say remove cloak from banshees, they don't need it, they already do enough dmg as it is, and it forces toss to get obs. If a toss player gets stargate and citadel but the terran teched cloacked banshees, it's often gg right there. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 03 2010 22:44 Severedevil wrote: DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes. I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
Another problem with protoss is that abilities turn their units from unusable early/mid game to cost efficient, methodical killing machines mid/late game. Charge, blink, void ray speed, colossus range, khydarin amulet, and psi-storm are all momentum swinging abilities that make protoss units turn from awful to pretty good. What's the problem then? You need all these upgrades and they take an eternity to research (thanks in part to chrono boost). CB has the effect of making protoss upgrades have a huge research time. This in turn forces protoss players to dump their energy into these upgrades to get them out during appropriate timing windows. There are a lot of upgrades that protoss needs compared to the other race to make their unit mix viable. Take a look at your typical MMMG(R) composition. Terran needs: stim, conc shells, and combat shields. Maybe cloak late game. The medivac and raven do not need any upgrades. Now take a look at your protoss composition: Stalker, zealot, sentry, HT and or colossus. This requires charge, blink, psi storm, khydarin amulet, another tech tree, thermal lances. These are all costly and time consuming upgrades, costly and time consuming structures. This is just to compete with Terran armies. The same picture occurs against zerg, as you have to be prepared before hand for a zerg tech switch otherwise protoss will not be able to recover. The big issue is if you want to make your stalkers / zealots useful against Terran bio or not die horribly to zerg units, you need blink & charge. However, protoss is funneled into robotics play in fear of banshees or making the wrong units against zerg. You NEED that observer or hallucination before you can make a tech path decision on where to proceed. This causes critical twilight upgrades to be ignored for just basic survivability, and the real kick in the groin is that you're battling against the clock. Protoss needs to buff their clumsy gateway units with twilight upgrades, however if gotten too early they are going to be low on units and will get put into a very uphill battle against an aggressive player. These upgrades cause protoss to play defensively early game. You don't want to be stepping out with slow zealots / non blinking stalkers against concussive shells or fast as sin zerg units. There is no avenue for retreat (except with forcefield, but making a ton of sentries also delays critical upgrades as gas is the limiting resource) Then, as the game progresses, protoss needs to answer to the larger armies with tier 3 units, but... they get funneled into grouping their units together so that the expensive tier 3 doesn't die horribly. Colossus and HT require baby-sitters. It's that simple. They're too expensive and so vulnerable to pretty much everything. Without your army baby-sitting them, corruptors, vikings, marauders, for colossus, or ghosts, blings, hellions, for templar get molested. All these things cause protoss play to become very streamlined and predictable with glaring timing windows where their units are very useless and cannot efficiently move out to poke or harass without committing. | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
And, yes, Toss units only come into usefulness after they get their upgrades(and these are usually very expensive). Stalkers only become dangerous once they have blink, zealots are no longer a joke once they get charge, and so on. This would not be so much an issue, as others have said, if Toss had better answers to problems than, "FF that." | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
On November 03 2010 23:15 junemermaid wrote: A lot of good discussion here and valid points. Wanted to add my thoughts here: Another problem with protoss is that abilities turn their units from unusable early/mid game to cost efficient, methodical killing machines mid/late game. Charge, blink, void ray speed, colossus range, khydarin amulet, and psi-storm are all momentum swinging abilities that make protoss units turn from awful to pretty good. What's the problem then? You need all these upgrades and they take an eternity to research (thanks in part to chrono boost). CB has the effect of making protoss upgrades have a huge research time. This in turn forces protoss players to dump their energy into these upgrades to get them out during appropriate timing windows. There are a lot of upgrades that protoss needs compared to the other race to make their unit mix viable. Take a look at your typical MMMG(R) composition. Terran needs: stim, conc shells, and combat shields. Maybe cloak late game. The medivac and raven do not need any upgrades. Now take a look at your protoss composition: Stalker, zealot, sentry, HT and or colossus. This requires charge, blink, psi storm, khydarin amulet, another tech tree, thermal lances. These are all costly and time consuming upgrades, costly and time consuming structures. This is just to compete with Terran armies. The same picture occurs against zerg, as you have to be prepared before hand for a zerg tech switch otherwise protoss will not be able to recover. The big issue is if you want to make your stalkers / zealots useful against Terran bio or not die horribly to zerg units, you need blink & charge. However, protoss is funneled into robotics play in fear of banshees or making the wrong units against zerg. You NEED that observer or hallucination before you can make a tech path decision on where to proceed. This causes critical twilight upgrades to be ignored for just basic survivability, and the real kick in the groin is that you're battling against the clock. Protoss needs to buff their clumsy gateway units with twilight upgrades, however if gotten too early they are going to be low on units and will get put into a very uphill battle against an aggressive player. These upgrades cause protoss to play defensively early game. You don't want to be stepping out with slow zealots / non blinking stalkers against concussive shells or fast as sin zerg units. There is no avenue for retreat (except with forcefield, but making a ton of sentries also delays critical upgrades as gas is the limiting resource) Then, as the game progresses, protoss needs to answer to the larger armies with tier 3 units, but... they get funneled into grouping their units together so that the expensive tier 3 doesn't die horribly. Colossus and HT require baby-sitters. It's that simple. They're too expensive and so vulnerable to pretty much everything. Without your army baby-sitting them, corruptors, vikings, marauders, for colossus, or ghosts, blings, hellions, for templar get molested. All these things cause protoss play to become very streamlined and predictable with glaring timing windows where their units are very useless and cannot efficiently move out to poke or harass without committing. Wow, BRAVO! Pretty much summed up everything that I was thinking and couldn't say due to my fail english. Blizzard really should read such kind of posts. I have to agree when protoss gets full tech, thermal lance+blink+storm there is literally nothing terran can do about it. | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote: Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? The one with permenant cloak without research, deals 45 a shot, most importantly The one you can warp in multiple times simultaneously at any location with power field... Honestly they are two different units get over it. People these days... Protoss is not doing well in GSL because they are not. You should not over think it. Zerg was not doing well in BW because they won't. Savior came in, Zerg were doing well because they were. then protoss sucked because they 'were'. PvZ was broken but Bisu changed the match up. No one knows what metagame will bring. I still do not think we can conclude from one tournament that this race is not up to scratch. Wait and see... | ||
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Firereaver
India1701 Posts
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On November 03 2010 14:36 bokeevboke wrote: You forgot the warp prism+HT against SCVs. Its the most powerful harass tool in the game. You just suicide couple of HTs for bunch of scvs. Terran needs alot of time to rebuild them hence weak eco. warp prism + HT comes like 15 minutes into the game and it's extremely expensive. It's not even that effective if the terran micros his scvs out of the way in time. It takes about 1.5-2 seconds for storm to actually kill the SCVs. The AoE of storm only hits like 8-10 SCVs. Compared to a blue flame hellion drop which is almost guaranteed to kill 10 probes, comes earlier in the game and is much cheaper.... | ||
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~GhoSt
145 Posts
Additionally PvZ has usually been a hard match-up, even upon release the W/L ratio for PvZ has been greatly in zerg's favor in Korea. There's no denying Protoss can play a solid macro game, especially if it's drawn out that far, in fact i believe Protoss has the best units for late game out of the three races at the moment. I'm sure a Best style or Stork style of protoss play in SC2 is probably ideal, but of course some want to take risks, and play a more say, Bisu style approach to Protoss, and I think Tester does that VERY well. Additionally, I think some of these Korean players are taking risks, and trying new things, new ways to attack with protoss, since it's obvious that a head-to-head match up with a protoss army can lead to very destructive results, so opposing races tend to find ways to cripple protoss in prevention of having to face a large protoss force straight up. But it seems to me, after playing over 500 games with protoss, that to do any sort of "gimicky" non-voidray/pheonix related assaults/multipronged attacks, you're bending over backwards more with protoss than any other race. I do believe that the warp prism is a God send, and i would love to see more Collosus/immortal drops with HT warp ins, etc. etc. but protoss requires so much PRECISION. That warp prism can only carry as much as it came in with, so if you warped in units and you have to bail, you're going to lose money/supply. Period. And if people realize this notion that, ok he sent in x amount of units and all gateway units cost 2 food then he's behind y amount of supply at this point in his main army,because he used a production cycle to harass me. Thusly, no structural/income damage in a harass can be deterimental in a game. I have no doubt that once people perfect protoss play, we'll see tons of protoss winners in GSL, and maybe if they do Golden Mouse in SC2, we'll have a FIRST PROTOSS golden mouse winner (considering the only 3 winners were 2Zs and NaDa <3). But for now it's a growth process, so don't feel so disheartened, unless 5 years down the line protoss continues to falter, then there's probably something wrong there lol. | ||
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worosei
Australia198 Posts
- sentries came along, had a brief patch of attacking and decided they'd rather camp up their ramp and forcefield... and if they have to go out, they never leave home without their guardian shield...and then if they're feeling really lazy, they just hallucinate something to go out for them. - stalkers decided they were sick of being a bit of a meat shield and developed blink so they could run home to have their cup of tea quicker - collosus decided to research their thermal lances so they could stay as far away from the action as possible, not to mention being a bit of a coward and always running up cliffs instead - fight like a man..uh reaver and hold your ground and never move and blow up if u have to! - zealot's decided they didnt like being so fast anymore, and will only go fast and charge at the last moment...it was tiring running everywhere - immortals.. have their shield they like to sit back on, and move ridiculously slow - Dark Templars really hated being used and so decided they needed a new tech tree, - and High Templars were sick of having to move quickly and storming to do damage instantly - Void rays are too lazy to do all their damage first, and have take time to warm up before they actually get into things, - shuttles were sick of doing escalators and said 'u know what? i'm sick of this, Im going to stay here, and if u want units, you can warp them in yourselves!' - observers gave up completely on trying to move faster, and didnt want to expand their horizons at all. - Arbiters were sick of wandering around and trying to sneak into terran bases only to get targetted and blown up, so made themselves exclusive, made themselves huge and slower, and magicked people away than just put them in a prism - out of sight, out of mind. - Phoenixes cant be bothered to attack ground units, so what do they do? they just hold up the ground unit for someone else to do the dirty work! At least the scout tried with it's puny attack! - All the gateway units just hated doing their training, so they were forced to be warped in so yes... all the protoss units are just too lazy, and if they have that sort of attitude, they'll never be able to really dominate... | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote: Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? Not to mention that getting banshees also enables hellion, tank, marauder, reaper, medivac, viking, raven and with one more building thor and BC; oh yea, did I mention that it's completely hidden because it's impossible to scout a terran with a wall-in and a couple marines. Rushing DT only gets you DTs with a 600-750 gas option to go templar and you can see it coming a mile away. | ||
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Critical loss
France31 Posts
In Playxp.com so many protoss progamers are QQing now. | ||
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Daray
6006 Posts
On November 03 2010 23:29 ~GhoSt wrote: Tester however, is like the Nal_Ra of SC2 in my opinion Well you know what they say about opinions... Nal_rA actually managed to win something. | ||
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