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On November 03 2010 11:36 Vehementus wrote:
Primarily referring to fast Banshees, as I've already said before. But blahblah QQ every Zerg player immediately techs to Lair, more than 1 queen of a hatchery is a waste, learn to play Zerg, why would Zerg have more than 1 path. Blahfuckingblah. What is this bullshit mentality where you're locked into one style of play? You need to learn some variety.
"I should be able to play the game without teching to get key scouting units like Observers."
"It's out of my tech path, what the fuck is this. It's bullshit. QQ"
Are you aware that photon cannons detect? It requires no tech commitment, but you're still going to cry about it.
The problem with using Cannons is a cannon takes so long to come out if you don't already have the forge up (45+40) compared to missle turrets (35+25) or Spores (35+30). They also are no where near as good. They cannot move like spores and lack that sexy splash of Missile turrets while costing more than either of them (150 min vs 75 and 100). They're such a huge investment that its hard to get them out and not lose to the coming ground push. Don't get me wrong, I use them when I have too, but they pale in comparison to observers when it comes to detection, making observers a much more appealing choice.
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Furthermore, he went Gate->CC against BoxeR's 2 Barracks. Had he opened with 2gate he could've maintained defensive against his literally trickled forces.
Sentries are important, but I think that players may be a bit disillusioned if they think they should be able to remain safe by building an army of forcefields, basically.
How could he fend off the attack with nothing but zealots? a mere split of the force would kill all P forces and he still had to tech to get the stalkers and sentries for the "concusive i garantee no damage" upgrade against the moronic 2 gate opening.
Another thing... Are u saying that you think 2 gate should be standard? Cause there isnt a way to effectivly scout the 2 rax openning ( one usually is hidden ), so i would have to open 2 gate blind. Have you ever felt the horrible feeling of getting your zealots kited till death?
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On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. Protoss' only mobile form of detection, also the only race to have no detectior spell. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. But they will still all build a robo bay for late game.
the zealot nerf was needed, it almost made fast expanding zerg builds impossible and a zerg on one base against 4 warp gate toss is auto win for the toss.
there is no denying that sentries before nerf was to powerful. even with the nerf sentries are still damn good and effective and no where near being bad.
God, void rays needed a nerf so damn bad. they pretty much disintegrated anything and everything in small numbers and went to a level beyond god like in big numbers. even after all the nerfs to void rays they are still hella powerful.
mother ship... well i admit that they nerf that unit so much that its pretty useless now. they should have just stopped once they took out worm hole transit skill from it.
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs.
stalkers bad? learn how to use blink stalkers. and i am going to assume that i read wrong and that you DID NOT just say that observer is a bad unit. as far as scouting goes its the 2nd best in the game right after changelings. and as far as detection you get a cloaked detector where as everyone elses mobile detectors are vulnerable and costly compared to a observer. its probaly the cheapest mobile detection in the game.
so nothing is wrong with toss. ZvP is still a pretty even match up. PvT still needs work done and ZvT is starting to get pretty balanced.
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On November 03 2010 12:46 Vehementus wrote:
I'm just trying to get discussion rather than complaints.
I really do not see the 'common' immortal strategy very often. However, in this thread I do see a lot of complaint of being forced into robo tech because of observers. Is the immortal strictly 'common' because you're forced into the robo, or is it standard in the sense that you'd get it without the observer?
From another perspective, when engaging a stim-hoppin' bioball as Zerg, you're typically equally fucked without favorable positions, whereas Protoss in my experience like to attack head-on. Do you think there'd be a significant difference if you split your force and hit from two sides? My concern for attacking directly is that charge/zea-lots wind up charging headfirst into a stimmed marauder wall with concussive shells. That could be avoided with better positioning. Does it not change the outcome?
Marine Stim is being looked at, for what it's worth. Wasn't aware the Immortals worked so poorly with Stalkers.
You aren't helping the discussion by forcing people to rehash points already made in this topic or go over the basics of PvT when a discussion of this level should already be above that. Don't waste our time because you don't want to invest your own into informing yourself about the issues. There is a reason why people think you are trolling.
Your experiences are irrelevant to this discussion because everything you've brought up just seems like low-level play and your references to high-level play are totally lacking in proper analysis. Not seeing FFs enough in PvT? Not knowing about Immortals vT? Never personally seeing Protoss lose to cloaked Banshees so that means it doesn't happen? Actually needing to ask about positioning? Suggesting we get cannons to counter Banshees?
You're unintentionally trolling people with your lack of knowledge.
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On November 03 2010 14:11 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 13:36 bokeevboke wrote:
There are two major problems with PvT.
1. Banshee - adds huge luck/random factor to the matchup. This unit singularly can decide the outcome of the game. I don't say its OP, its easily countered but it depends if lucky not on skill. Also this unit singularly dictates or rather restricts builds and strategies in early game against Z and P. But I find its stupid that one unit can win the game
2. HT - totally owns terran. Actually, Psionic Storm owns exactly one Terran unit: the marine. Although there are a couple of other fragile units it can be effective against, like the hellion and reaper, you won't ever see those massed enough to make it worthwhile. Other Terran units do quite well against Storm. Marauders, for instance, survive quite well as long as there are a couple of medivacs available. Storms don't stack, and so if you look at any high-level play you'll see that storms kill almost no marauders simply because the marauders have enough health to escape and heal up quickly, even if the Protoss player is spamming storms.
You forgot the warp prism+HT against SCVs. Its the most powerful harass tool in the game. You just suicide couple of HTs for bunch of scvs. Terran needs alot of time to rebuild them hence weak eco.
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On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. Protoss' only mobile form of detection, also the only race to have no detectior spell. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. But they will still all build a robo bay for late game. the zealot nerf was needed, it almost made fast expanding zerg builds impossible and a zerg on one base against 4 warp gate toss is auto win for the toss.
as it SHOULD. do you even realize that 2gate push and 4 gate are 2 entirely different strategies? where do you get the minerals for the cyber core and wg so quick if you're pushing with zealots?
wait - are you saying that a fast expand build should win vs an early army/aggression build?
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On November 03 2010 14:36 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 14:11 Jumbled wrote:On November 03 2010 13:36 bokeevboke wrote:
There are two major problems with PvT.
1. Banshee - adds huge luck/random factor to the matchup. This unit singularly can decide the outcome of the game. I don't say its OP, its easily countered but it depends if lucky not on skill. Also this unit singularly dictates or rather restricts builds and strategies in early game against Z and P. But I find its stupid that one unit can win the game
2. HT - totally owns terran. Actually, Psionic Storm owns exactly one Terran unit: the marine. Although there are a couple of other fragile units it can be effective against, like the hellion and reaper, you won't ever see those massed enough to make it worthwhile. Other Terran units do quite well against Storm. Marauders, for instance, survive quite well as long as there are a couple of medivacs available. Storms don't stack, and so if you look at any high-level play you'll see that storms kill almost no marauders simply because the marauders have enough health to escape and heal up quickly, even if the Protoss player is spamming storms. You forgot the warp prism+HT against SCVs. Its the most powerful harass tool in the game. You just suicide couple of HTs for bunch of scvs. Terran needs alot of time to rebuild them hence weak eco.
Well I dont think HT storm raids on a T mineral line slow them down that much (mule), they still enjoy their four digit eco anyways. Besides why would they waste energy on scans anyways? Current state is that you're only like 10% of the time going to encounter DT 
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Sometimes I find it very funny how ridiculously T>P early game.
Terran opens with two rax reactor/techlab. Researches stim and is able to pressure protoss in his base and expand at the same time.
Protoss on the other side has to wait for observer and build sentries to survive. These two gas heavy units are essential vs terran early game. Basically toss has to tech right away and forced to build robo. I think there is a huge design problem in this matchup. I have no idea how it can be fixed. Maybe HoTS will change smth.
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On November 03 2010 03:55 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 03:49 smoorn wrote:On November 03 2010 03:40 ensis wrote:
well, i want the protoss to have some harrass options available
maybe phoenix should become a scout, or the collossi should get a basedamage of 45 with reduced attackspeed. or the stalker should get a tweak.
i mean, the stalker is designed as a fast blinking hitnrun bitch. but its more like a get hit and run unit.
i mean, cmon 160hp for an harrassment unit? i say, double the damage, lower the shields by 50 and the health by 30. the oneonone abilities would stay the same, but they would finally be able to kill at least a probe with 2 shots, still needing 3 for drones and scvs. also the combination of zealot stalker would be like tank and dps and not like tank and tank. im sorry, this is the most stupid idea ever - double stalker damage LOL u want stalkers to become marauders? idk why but zealots feel like they're made of paper in sc2, they felt so much stronger in bw, id prefer if they were speedlots instead of chargelots.. and someone can tell me why only terran has upgrades which are 50/50? i mean the slowing granades for marauder have basically the same effect as charge for zealots but zealot upgrade is 200/200 and much more far away in tech tree and it also takes forever to get that upgrade first thanks for randomly insulting people who are propably even better. and stalkers are designed around speed (they are as fast as basic-lings) and mobility (blink!). they would make the perfect hit&run unit. and there is nothing bad about marauders in terms of harrassment. the only thing that is stupid about marauders is, that they are great at harrassing AND being massable unit for your army.
k wait lets think about this... Marauders without stim but o wait they have blink? im not a genius but lol this would make protoss gods ... like lemme just get an obs, blink into your natural or main and BOOM dead CC in second, or blink out if shit gets heavy... so i mean awsome idea... bad bad bad bad for game balance!
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Why are you guys even bothered to waste your time arguing to Vehementus? Everything he brings up has already been brought up in detail throughout this thread and the content he speaks on behalf of Protoss proves his utter ignorance of the Protoss race. I don't mean to be rude Vehementus but the things you bring up to refute such things about Protoss just devalues your opinion regarding the issues that Protoss has
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On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs.
Yeah, "L2P" is everything people can come up with it seems.
But hey, awsome, let's just sink 250 gas into a DT-shrine in the middle of the game that can ONLY be used to produce DTs and nothing else, no upgrades whatsoever, because I have nothing better to do with my gas.
Posts like this are a perfect example what's wrong with such threads...it inevitably turns in a "QQ" vs "L2P" - war.
I've never played BW competitively (meaning my BW-experience resembles the knowledge of a SC2 silver player), but even I know that DTs were much better in BW because the templar-techs were not split upt...Jesus...
EDIT: also SC2 stupidly removed the Dark Archon, that was an amazing unit vs Zerg thanks to maelstrom. Just another reason to get DTs, either for harass or for merging them into Dark Archons. Splitting the Templar techs up not only means a tech-choice for protoss (because both templar-buildings together need rofl-450 gas...hahaa yes), but ALSO means it is incredibly easy to scout for. Not being able to "surprise" your opponent with either DTs or HTs and make him prepare for both (in case of zerg: also against Dark Archons) is a HUGE setback, I'm surprised few have realized/mentioned this.
The funniest thing is: the better I get at playing SC2-protoss, the more I want to play BW because BW-protoss seems to provide so many more awsome strategies....lol....
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On November 03 2010 18:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs. Yeah, "L2P" is everything people can come up with it seems. But hey, awsome, let's just sink 250 gas into a DT-shrine in the middle of the game that can ONLY be used to produce DTs and nothing else, no upgrades whatsoever, because I have nothing better to do with my gas.
Its not that DT's are bad in themselves, as a unit they are fantastic for harass/scout/supplement
Its the route to go DT's as mentioned is a deadend otherwise. 250min/300gas + 80 secs or so JUST to be able to make a unit thats not really "powerful" say like ultra/thor/carrier(in theory carrier's should be better than it currently is)
At least fleet beacon opens up some upgrades and mothership(laugh)
I still dont see why they even separated DT's away from templar archives. That would make templar tech a bit easier to transition into since you dont have this huge dead zone from gateway units without colossus, to get twilight/templar archive/ upgrade.
Maybe Blizz did this since zergs detection is a bit weaker than in SC1(overlords used to detect). Terrans detection abilities are about the same, turrets/raven(vessel)/scan. Yes scan is costly while in SC1 it was free, but its still there.
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On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. Protoss' only mobile form of detection, also the only race to have no detectior spell. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. But they will still all build a robo bay for late game. the zealot nerf was needed, it almost made fast expanding zerg builds impossible and a zerg on one base against 4 warp gate toss is auto win for the toss. there is no denying that sentries before nerf was to powerful. even with the nerf sentries are still damn good and effective and no where near being bad. God, void rays needed a nerf so damn bad. they pretty much disintegrated anything and everything in small numbers and went to a level beyond god like in big numbers. even after all the nerfs to void rays they are still hella powerful. mother ship... well i admit that they nerf that unit so much that its pretty useless now. they should have just stopped once they took out worm hole transit skill from it. also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs. stalkers bad? learn how to use blink stalkers. and i am going to assume that i read wrong and that you DID NOT just say that observer is a bad unit. as far as scouting goes its the 2nd best in the game right after changelings. and as far as detection you get a cloaked detector where as everyone elses mobile detectors are vulnerable and costly compared to a observer. its probaly the cheapest mobile detection in the game. so nothing is wrong with toss. ZvP is still a pretty even match up. PvT still needs work done and ZvT is starting to get pretty balanced.
The difference with DTs compered to BW, that this time you HAVE TO build one more building, what takes 250 gas on an already gas expensive tech, takes 100 to be finished, and if the enemy scouts it, you fucked.
Ye, l2p issue
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On November 03 2010 19:05 s4m222 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 18:46 sleepingdog wrote:On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs. Yeah, "L2P" is everything people can come up with it seems. But hey, awsome, let's just sink 250 gas into a DT-shrine in the middle of the game that can ONLY be used to produce DTs and nothing else, no upgrades whatsoever, because I have nothing better to do with my gas. Its not that DT's are bad in themselves, as a unit they are fantastic for harass/scout/supplement Its the route to go DT's as mentioned is a deadend otherwise. 250min/300gas + 80 secs or so JUST to be able to make a unit thats not really "powerful" say like ultra/thor/carrier(in theory carrier's should be better than it currently is) At least fleet beacon opens up some upgrades and mothership(laugh) I still dont see why they even separated DT's away from templar archives. That would make templar tech a bit easier to transition into since you dont have this huge dead zone from gateway units without colossus, to get twilight/templar archive/ upgrade. Maybe Blizz did this since zergs detection is a bit weaker than in SC1(overlords used to detect). Terrans detection abilities are about the same, turrets/raven(vessel)/scan. Yes scan is costly while in SC1 it was free, but its still there.
DT tech is expensive because once u get the shrine you can build tons of dts instantly.
Which is wrong metagamewise. Assuming that DTs are specific, expensive and not massable they are not supposed to be built via warping.
Imo, they should be build one by one at darkshrine or nexus. Similar to banshee. Then we can talk about making tech cheaper and require less time.
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To all the people saying "just be more creative and try new strategies", that this hasn't happened yet is a sign that something is wrong with Protoss. You just get punished so hard for not going robo tech that it's not viable to do other things.
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On November 03 2010 19:14 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 19:05 s4m222 wrote:On November 03 2010 18:46 sleepingdog wrote:On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs. Yeah, "L2P" is everything people can come up with it seems. But hey, awsome, let's just sink 250 gas into a DT-shrine in the middle of the game that can ONLY be used to produce DTs and nothing else, no upgrades whatsoever, because I have nothing better to do with my gas. Its not that DT's are bad in themselves, as a unit they are fantastic for harass/scout/supplement Its the route to go DT's as mentioned is a deadend otherwise. 250min/300gas + 80 secs or so JUST to be able to make a unit thats not really "powerful" say like ultra/thor/carrier(in theory carrier's should be better than it currently is) At least fleet beacon opens up some upgrades and mothership(laugh) I still dont see why they even separated DT's away from templar archives. That would make templar tech a bit easier to transition into since you dont have this huge dead zone from gateway units without colossus, to get twilight/templar archive/ upgrade. Maybe Blizz did this since zergs detection is a bit weaker than in SC1(overlords used to detect). Terrans detection abilities are about the same, turrets/raven(vessel)/scan. Yes scan is costly while in SC1 it was free, but its still there. DT tech is expensive because once u get the shrine you can build tons of dts instantly. Which is wrong metagamewise. Assuming that DTs are specific, expensive and not massable they are not supposed to be built via warping. Imo, they should be build one by one at darkshrine or nexus. Similar to banshee. Then we can talk about making tech cheaper and require less time.
The fact that the banshee is FLYING? I mean that's basically a flying dt with less damage and invis depends on energy but heck I'll take the banshee over the dt anyday. You can harass his main mineral line and 5 seconds later be ripping up his natural mineral line and escape easily. Not so with the DTs.
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On November 03 2010 14:37 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. Protoss' only mobile form of detection, also the only race to have no detectior spell. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. But they will still all build a robo bay for late game. the zealot nerf was needed, it almost made fast expanding zerg builds impossible and a zerg on one base against 4 warp gate toss is auto win for the toss. as it SHOULD. do you even realize that 2gate push and 4 gate are 2 entirely different strategies? where do you get the minerals for the cyber core and wg so quick if you're pushing with zealots? wait - are you saying that a fast expand build should win vs an early army/aggression build?
Did you even read what he wrote? He said that a fast expand were impossible and without it a 4 gate was an auto win. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, but that is not how it SHOULD be as you put it.
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On November 03 2010 19:14 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 19:05 s4m222 wrote:On November 03 2010 18:46 sleepingdog wrote:On November 03 2010 14:23 Ballistixz wrote:
also DTs are bad. they are just as good as they were in broodwar. have no idea on where u got the impression on where they are bad. a tech switch to DTs in the middle of any game when your opponent is not expecting it can be game changing. learn how to use DTs. Yeah, "L2P" is everything people can come up with it seems. But hey, awsome, let's just sink 250 gas into a DT-shrine in the middle of the game that can ONLY be used to produce DTs and nothing else, no upgrades whatsoever, because I have nothing better to do with my gas. Its not that DT's are bad in themselves, as a unit they are fantastic for harass/scout/supplement Its the route to go DT's as mentioned is a deadend otherwise. 250min/300gas + 80 secs or so JUST to be able to make a unit thats not really "powerful" say like ultra/thor/carrier(in theory carrier's should be better than it currently is) At least fleet beacon opens up some upgrades and mothership(laugh) I still dont see why they even separated DT's away from templar archives. That would make templar tech a bit easier to transition into since you dont have this huge dead zone from gateway units without colossus, to get twilight/templar archive/ upgrade. Maybe Blizz did this since zergs detection is a bit weaker than in SC1(overlords used to detect). Terrans detection abilities are about the same, turrets/raven(vessel)/scan. Yes scan is costly while in SC1 it was free, but its still there. DT tech is expensive because once u get the shrine you can build tons of dts instantly. Which is wrong metagamewise. Assuming that DTs are specific, expensive and not massable they are not supposed to be built via warping. Imo, they should be build one by one at darkshrine or nexus. Similar to banshee. Then we can talk about making tech cheaper and require less time.
You are wrong, but this is also due to a logical mistake that I think can be cleared up quite quickly:
1st I'm sure you are aware of that DTs still have the pretty long cooldown that also applies to warpgates, just that the warpgates have to "cool off" after the warp in.
2nd Now it might seem problematic that you have DTs "instantly" from warp-in. Nevertheless this issue can be (and is) PERFECTLY solved by the insanely long build-time of the tech-building. The dark shrine needs 100 seconds to build, which is to make up for the instant warp in. You see, a shorter build-time of dark shrine and "no warp-in" would be exactly the same.
The long buildtime of the tech-building is 100% ok, you are right that a shorte build-time would lead to imbalances due to the instant warp-in.
Nevertheless this does NOT justify the 250 gas that you have to sink in a building that is completely useless beside building DTs. You can't get DT-upgrades (spells etc.) and can't get dark archons which means dark archon-spell-upgrades aren't logically possible either.
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On November 03 2010 14:16 Jacobs Ladder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:36 Vehementus wrote:
Primarily referring to fast Banshees, as I've already said before. But blahblah QQ every Zerg player immediately techs to Lair, more than 1 queen of a hatchery is a waste, learn to play Zerg, why would Zerg have more than 1 path. Blahfuckingblah. What is this bullshit mentality where you're locked into one style of play? You need to learn some variety.
"I should be able to play the game without teching to get key scouting units like Observers."
"It's out of my tech path, what the fuck is this. It's bullshit. QQ"
Are you aware that photon cannons detect? It requires no tech commitment, but you're still going to cry about it. The problem with using Cannons is a cannon takes so long to come out if you don't already have the forge up (45+40) compared to missle turrets (35+25) or Spores (35+30). They also are no where near as good. They cannot move like spores and lack that sexy splash of Missile turrets while costing more than either of them (150 min vs 75 and 100). They're such a huge investment that its hard to get them out and not lose to the coming ground push. Don't get me wrong, I use them when I have too, but they pale in comparison to observers when it comes to detection, making observers a much more appealing choice.
what are you talking about. spores are the by far weakest "tower" with the pathetic dmg and 50! buildtime, turrets dont have splash. your costs are off also.
also when you go for nonrobo build whats the problem with having 3 zeals less? this will pretty much never make a big difference.
dont say evrything is fine and dandy but really you make it sound like cannons are soo bad(when they are just amazing) and quite some of your facts are plain wrong.
missile turrets are stupidly strong,cheap and fast to build. but cannons are not far behind considering their power.
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yeah that cannon comparison made no sense at all. forgot drone cost and loss, forgot that cannon can attack ground and makes up that turret has splash. I do think turrets are quite cheap though.
about the DT. It does 45! damage. that's more than the biggest zerg unit, the ultralisk which is I think 15(+15). You don't have to use them just for harass. They can be awesome in your main army too. I can imagine vs Terran u can harass a lot to if u don't send them in all at once but rather 1 each minute. Waste all their scans or force them to make a raven.
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EPT
