EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 35
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NyuNyu
Canada146 Posts
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:05 emc wrote: no you're right, I was merely pointing out how amazing observers are. Yea I guess it sucks you have to go robo, but that's how it was in BW and in BW zerg had detectors for every overlord so things have changed but not for protoss (as far as techs go, it's pretty much the same). In my opinion, I think the observers abilities more than make up the fact that you have to go robo, that just seems like a poor excuse to complain. If one must go a certain tech path then how can we expect "creative play" or even expect any trouble from protoss players. If they need to go robo then all z and t have to do is counter the 1 thing protoss needs to do. It is so clear that something is wrong with protoss, when you see high level play consists of massing maradeurs. When zerg had no good early options you qq, with reason. Now we see protoss has the same problem all of you point to low skill players? | ||
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
On November 03 2010 07:26 robertdinh wrote: A name is only a name... julyzerg is recognizable, he hasn't done anything for the zerg race yet. You could have flash and jaedong go protoss in sc2, it wouldn't actually change whether protoss is underpowered or overpowered or balanced or not. They may play it better than other people play the game, but then that would be their skill, not the race itself. I'd have to disagree with this. FruitDealer's games as Zerg were a huge change in my mindset as a zerg player. Where before I moaned and groaned about ZvT, Fruit's control showed that the problem wasn't really in the balance, but instead the strategy of most Zerg players. His tactics and expansion timings demonstrated just how effective Zerg could be, even before the roach buff. I play zerg, and I think it was balanced with short range roaches. But I also play Protoss, actually more so than Zerg. I think the racial balance is more than fine--Protoss can still take games off Zerg and Terran as demonstrated at the GSL. The problem lies in the players. While it is possible for a Protoss to win, as demonstrated at Blizzcon, I think someone needs to come in and revolutionize the Protoss mindset. | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:19 Hikko wrote: I'd have to disagree with this. FruitDealer's games as Zerg were a huge change in my mindset as a zerg player. Where before I moaned and groaned about ZvT, Fruit's control showed that the problem wasn't really in the balance, but instead the strategy of most Zerg players. His tactics and expansion timings demonstrated just how effective Zerg could be, even before the roach buff. I play zerg, and I think it was balanced with short range roaches. But I also play Protoss, actually more so than Zerg. I think the racial balance is more than fine--Protoss can still take games off Zerg and Terran as demonstrated at the GSL. The problem lies in the players. While it is possible for a Protoss to win, as demonstrated at Blizzcon, I think someone needs to come in and revolutionize the Protoss mindset. Fruitdealer was playing on a level above any of his opponents in GSL1. He proved that through dominating through the imbalance and with all of his efficient micro/macro. He didn't magically make all the mediocre zergs strong, it was the patch changes that helped. No more early reaper harass, roach range to help vs hellion harass and to threaten easier busts on wall-ins. | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:28 raf3776 wrote: Also all the protoss in GSL were pretty predictable. I think all of them got collosi. Did any actually get templars? Idk but I think protoss will win when they just have to expand on builds and don't get consistently nerfed from here on out every patch In his 4 game match vs hope torture I believe Genius got Colossi in only 1 of the 4 games. We saw him open Stargate twice, twighlight council once, and robo once. I don't think this is a fair criticism at all. | ||
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Vehementus
10 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:02 Zealot Lord wrote: I don't think Protoss needs too much changes to the individual unit stats themselves, as that may break the balance of the game, but a lot of the tech/research needs a complete overhaul in my personal opinion. If they change storm, which they will for sure I think, I really hope its to do with the k.amulet and not the storm itself (nerfing that would make it essentially useless). But I'd be fine with that if they compensated it with changes like: -Charge research cost and time down to 150/150 instead of 200/200 (thats just WAY too expensive). -Warp Prism movement speed research moved to Cybernetics Core instead of Robo Bay. This could encourage much more warp prism usage, and thus creative plays as well. -Merging templar archives with dark shrine, that way you can tech up to storm tech tree while able to maintain some sort of harassment/defensive ability. As of now, due to the cost/time investment, DT's are pretty much a gimmick all in more often than not. But damage should probably be lowered slightly to compensate for easier accessibility. -Hallucination energy cost down from 100 to 75. -Archons should not be affected by concussive shells? Not sure on this one. -Carrier build time cut at least by 25% -Void Ray needs to be completely reworked again. Finally, I don't know what would be fair, but Protoss needs one more detection method - no race is as prone to getting outright GG'ed by cloaked units. For a race thats supposed to be 'most advanced' kinda funny how they have so much less options than terrans when dealing with banshees/dt's etc. Charge is a VERY powerful ability, but it doesn't see much use. I think it has more to do with people opting not to take it than it does the cost. I like the idea of moving the Warp Prism upgrade to the CCore, as I'd like to see them used more. I think they stand give Protoss considerably more variety than we're seeing. No to the merging. That doesn't make any sense. DTs are EXCELLENT base defense. I rarely see people use them this way, but unless you're Terran and can drop a scan right then, Dark Templars can completely obliterate attacking units on a ramp, block them, and mess up their pathing. They can also often take out 3rds and on, with a good bit of ease. Zerg is equally prone to getting 'outright GG'd' by cloaked units. It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo. You make observers right? What kind of Protoss doesn't make observers? Sorry, I can't emphasize with this last argument of yours. Zerg is in much worse shape in this regard. | ||
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positron.
634 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:36 andrewwiggin wrote: Let me address the real problem: The REAL problem here is that Blizzard's balancing methods are just plain stupid. They don't balance based solely on top-tier play (ala GSL). They balance for everything - including, no ESPECIALLY for team games, because team games are such a large component of current 'play' (1v1 is 1 out of 5 other types of play). And that's why void rays got nerfed! because in team games, you could turtle until you massed a critical number of void rays, and then bye bye the other side. The problem is how such stupid balancing scales up into the top-tier play, which while not every player can actually execute, every SINGLE player from bronze to super high diamond watches. 1v1 Protoss is hurting so much from this form of balancing. Blizzard assumes that low level play and high level play can be balanced appropriately together, and does this so the thousands of noobs playing in 4v4 and turtling up to mass units can feel safe. But they CANNOT be balanced together, not in any meaningful way, because they will LWAYS have directly competing interests!! I'm a noob protoss player. But I don't have to understand all the mechanics to understand when balancing has gone horribly wrong. P.S Blizzard, I'm a noob protoss player, but if I lose because of my noobiness in 4v4s, thats okay with me! AS LONG AS I know that once I get better, playing my race gets better too. (the upside of scaling for top-tier level play only). You are very uninformed and as a result your entire argument is trash. David Kim said clearly in his interview that the voidray nerf came from replay and insights of Maka. He apparently provided everything possible to show the balancing team that voidray needed a nerf. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On November 03 2010 08:43 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: 59% actually accordingly my calculations. Yap, the chance that one race is not in it assuming that each race has a 1/3 chance for each spot is actually higher than that all three are in it. [/QUOTE] How soon we forget that the only reason there was even a toss in the RO8 was because it was forced (PvP in RO16) | ||
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gdub
United States38 Posts
Also all the protoss in GSL were pretty predictable. I think all of them got collosi. Did any actually get templars? Idk but I think protoss will win when they just have to expand on builds and don't get consistently nerfed from here on out every patch They were getting pressured and attacked way before they could devote so many resources into building them. I can only remember a couple of games where they had the chance to. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:52 Vehementus wrote: Charge is a VERY powerful ability, but it doesn't see much use. I think it has more to do with people opting not to take it than it does the cost. I like the idea of moving the Warp Prism upgrade to the CCore, as I'd like to see them used more. I think they stand give Protoss considerably more variety than we're seeing. No to the merging. That doesn't make any sense. DTs are EXCELLENT base defense. I rarely see people use them this way, but unless you're Terran and can drop a scan right then, Dark Templars can completely obliterate attacking units on a ramp, block them, and mess up their pathing. They can also often take out 3rds and on, with a good bit of ease. Zerg is equally prone to getting 'outright GG'd' by cloaked units. It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo. You make observers right? What kind of Protoss doesn't make observers? Sorry, I can't emphasize with this last argument of yours. Zerg is in much worse shape in this regard. Are you freaking kidding me? What kind of zerg doesnt have a lair by the time a protoss has dts? and a lair is no tech commitment like a robo facility, its something you get by default every single game. | ||
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Vehementus
10 Posts
On November 03 2010 11:24 leveller wrote: Are you freaking kidding me? What kind of zerg doesnt have a lair by the time a protoss has dts? and a lair is no tech commitment like a robo facility, its something you get by default every single game. Referring to a fast banshee rush. Though I could say the same of Protoss. It'd be laughable not to have a robo by the time they have DTs in your base. Do you not scout? An observer should be a requirement for Protoss. Not getting one is a lot like throwing yourself under a bus. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On November 03 2010 10:52 Vehementus wrote: Charge is a VERY powerful ability, but it doesn't see much use. I think it has more to do with people opting not to take it than it does the cost. I like the idea of moving the Warp Prism upgrade to the CCore, as I'd like to see them used more. I think they stand give Protoss considerably more variety than we're seeing. No to the merging. That doesn't make any sense. DTs are EXCELLENT base defense. I rarely see people use them this way, but unless you're Terran and can drop a scan right then, Dark Templars can completely obliterate attacking units on a ramp, block them, and mess up their pathing. They can also often take out 3rds and on, with a good bit of ease. Zerg is equally prone to getting 'outright GG'd' by cloaked units. It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo. You make observers right? What kind of Protoss doesn't make observers? Sorry, I can't emphasize with this last argument of yours. Zerg is in much worse shape in this regard. I've never seen a zerg downright lose because of cloaked banshees. You can suicide a 100 mineral overlord to see what their doing...where as we can't even scout yet with the exception of putting a probe up the ramp and getting instantly killed by marines/marauders and seeing 1 barracks. | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
On November 03 2010 11:27 Vehementus wrote: Referring to a fast banshee rush. Though I could say the same of Protoss. It'd be laughable not to have a robo bay by the time they have DTs in your base. Do you not scout? An observer should be a requirement for Protoss. Not getting one is a lot like throwing yourself under a bus. "It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo." Please read what you said again, that statement is absurd. There has not been a single diamond game where a zerg does not have a lair by the time he gets dt rushed. Dont you understand the concept that for a protoss to get detection you have to commit to tech while zerg gets it along the way to everything else? Its not like you need a hydra den to get detection. Maybe there is nothing wrong with that design though, but thats the way it is. | ||
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Vehementus
10 Posts
On November 03 2010 11:27 Silidons wrote: I've never seen a zerg downright lose because of cloaked banshees. You can suicide a 100 mineral overlord to see what their doing...where as we can't even scout yet with the exception of putting a probe up the ramp and getting instantly killed by marines/marauders and seeing 1 barracks. I've never seen a Protoss downright lose because of cloaked banshees. So it doesn't happen. If we stay on base tech, as you are, then that overlord is the slowest piece of shit in the game and it's not going to see much of anything, if they know how to place their buildings/marines. That's before taking into account how long that overlord takes to travel from your hatchery. So we lose supply and 100 minerals. If we assume that we can get overlord speed, then you should already have an observer out. edit: Jesus.. On November 03 2010 11:33 leveller wrote: "It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo." Please read what you said again, that statement is absurd. There has not been a single diamond game where a zerg does not have a lair by the time he gets dt rushed. Dont you understand the concept that for a protoss to get detection you have to commit to tech while zerg gets it along the way to everything else? Its not like you need a hydra den to get detection. Maybe there is nothing wrong with that design though, but thats the way it is. Primarily referring to fast Banshees, as I've already said before. But blahblah QQ every Zerg player immediately techs to Lair, more than 1 queen of a hatchery is a waste, learn to play Zerg, why would Zerg have more than 1 path. Blahfuckingblah. What is this bullshit mentality where you're locked into one style of play? You need to learn some variety. "I should be able to play the game without teching to get key scouting units like Observers." "It's out of my tech path, what the fuck is this. It's bullshit. QQ" Are you aware that photon cannons detect? It requires no tech commitment, but you're still going to cry about it. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. Protoss' only mobile form of detection, also the only race to have no detectior spell. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. But they will still all build a robo bay for late game. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
First off, as many have said time and time again, the need for detection is too large a limiting factor in PvT. You either go robo or you're stuck praying T doesn't go quick Banshees or get cloak on Ghosts (neither of which are a fair-cost-for-cost trade vs. robo+obs for P). Banshees will obviously just kill stuff, give the T map control, and info. Ghosts roaming the field will just take out your sentries and HT, get into ideal EMP position unimpeded, give the T map control, and info. The problem is T has so many ways of cost-effectively forcing P to get detection. P doesn't have the same ability to bottle-neck T strategic options. If you open Robo and try to transition into Templar tech quickly, it just leaves you totally vulnerable to a strong timing push anytime before Storm finishes because you have to invest so much in storm research (150/100 for Council, 150/200 for Archives, 200/200 for Storm, 150/150 for Amulet). You need to expand to properly to support tech of that level and your primarily gate-way army is just simply not going to be strong or big enough to do what you need to do (pressure the T to atleast slow expansion, defend) since all our big damage dealers and equalizers are tier 3. So really, the way I see HT play currently is it's a transition out of late-game robo. Once you have Colossi out, the T will most likely respond with Vikings and the game will slow down as it becomes a positional war / micro war. At this point, you have the time, resources, and map control to either contend air-control, go Stargates for phoenixes, and stay with Colossi play or just abandon air control and transition into HT. I just think it's way too risky otherwise. | ||
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sysrpl
United States222 Posts
I'd also like to see dark shrine wiped out and DT requires moved back to templar archives. The problem with this is it makes SCII less evolutionary by reverting back to a SCI tech tree. | ||
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Vehementus
10 Posts
On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote: Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. Hey! Thanks for replying to something other than Zerg shit in this thread! I think Zealots are fine, personally. I think there's a misunderstanding between early pressure and cheese. The timing nerf affected cheese, that is, the 2proxy gate play you'd see prior to it. However, I don't think the pressure works out so well with Zealots as they're frankly, really slow. If you spawn far positions, then you're probably going to be out of luck. Zerg will typically tech to Roach to prepare for Protoss, and they can kite, and Terrans will have their wall up. I'm not adamant on the timings of all of it, however, but if you have replays to share that'd be awesome. -THAT SAID- I think Protoss has crap for early pressure. I also think that's a bit by design. Forcefields are absolutely amazing. I've lost to Protoss where I had a massive lead because of forcefield micro. I'd be willing to call them imba but I'm seeing them used less and less, which frankly confuses me. Forcefield is the strongest spell I can really think of. Void rays are still fine. I think they grow a bit underused in the higher tiers; but, they're not bad units by any means. Protoss use warp prisms? They should, but I'm not seeing it. Can't speak for the mothership. I know HuK uses them pretty flamboyantly, and I've seen some good play out of him with them, but I've also seen him horrifically mismicro one and lose a game. [Don't worry, that's Halo.] High Templar are also pretty incredible. I think they'll continue to be as such. I -do- think they come out a bit late, however, if at all. I'm going to preface this with "I don't play Protoss, but.." I don't really see a whole lot of neat sentry play when it comes to TvP. I have a pretty small breadth of the subject, I've only seen a few of the bigger matches, but to me it seems like when P is faced against a bioball, they just keep throwing Stalkers and Zealots at it. Knowing full well that they're at a disadvantage doing so until Colossi/HTs come out, why the insistence on sticking with those 2 units? I know the whole "Forced robo tech" mumbojumbo about the observer, but since it's pretty easy to split a bioball with forcefields, why aren't immortals used more to counteract Marauders? | ||
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