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Primarily referring to fast Banshees, as I've already said before. But blahblah QQ every Zerg player immediately techs to Lair, more than 1 queen of a hatchery is a waste, learn to play Zerg, why would Zerg have more than 1 path. Blahfuckingblah. What is this bullshit mentality where you're locked into one style of play? You need to learn some variety.
"I should be able to play the game without teching to get key scouting units like Observers."
"It's out of my tech path, what the fuck is this. It's bullshit. QQ"
Are you aware that photon cannons detect? It requires no tech commitment, but you're still going to cry about it.
Telling other to l2p while you don't even know how zerg works while raging like a mad bull. Having more than one queen per hatch is good, since you have to spread creeps anyway. Have you ever seen high level plays?
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On November 03 2010 12:01 Vehementus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. Hey! Thanks for replying to something other than Zerg shit in this thread! I think Zealots are fine, personally. I think there's a misunderstanding between early pressure and cheese. The timing nerf affected cheese, that is, the 2proxy gate play you'd see prior to it. However, I don't think the pressure works out so well with Zealots as they're frankly, really slow. If you spawn far positions, then you're probably going to be out of luck. Zerg will typically tech to Roach to prepare for Protoss, and they can kite, and Terrans will have their wall up. I'm not adamant on the timings of all of it, however, but if you have replays to share that'd be awesome. -THAT SAID- I think Protoss has crap for early pressure. I also think that's a bit by design. Forcefields are absolutely amazing. I've lost to Protoss where I had a massive lead because of forcefield micro. I'd be willing to call them imba but I'm seeing them used less and less, which frankly confuses me. Forcefield is the strongest spell I can really think of. Void rays are still fine. I think they grow a bit underused in the higher tiers; but, they're not bad units by any means. Protoss use warp prisms? They should, but I'm not seeing it. Can't speak for the mothership. I know HuK uses them pretty flamboyantly, and I've seen some good play out of him with them, but I've also seen him horrifically mismicro one and lose a game. [Don't worry, that's Halo.] High Templar are also pretty incredible. I think they'll continue to be as such. I -do- think they come out a bit late, however, if at all. I'm going to preface this with "I don't play Protoss, but.." I don't really see a whole lot of neat sentry play when it comes to TvP. I have a pretty small breadth of the subject, I've only seen a few of the bigger matches, but to me it seems like when P is faced against a bioball, they just keep throwing Stalkers and Zealots at it. Knowing full well that they're at a disadvantage doing so until Colossi/HTs come out, why the insistence on sticking with those 2 units? I know the whole "Forced robo tech" mumbojumbo about the observer, but since it's pretty easy to split a bioball with forcefields, why aren't immortals used more to counteract Marauders?
where do you play??
Dont tell me you never seen a "forcefield the ramp till that immortal comes so i dont lose flat" in PvT. This timming attack is so standard i bet you almost all protoss diamond players know this.
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To all the people saying that Protoss players are just not maximising their potential, and Protoss doesn't have 'legends' and super pros playing the race, how about IntoTheRainbow and Clare (aka boxer aka foxer)?
Did they magically change their race from Protoss in sc bw to Terran in sc2 and reach consecutive GSL ro4's or ro4 in their first GSL because they were legendary players or because they switched to Terran? I don't think they'd get this far as Protoss.
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Vehementus, you need to stop posting in this topic. This is no longer only an issue of you not playing protoss. It's not also apparently an issue of you not watching protoss and not reading enough about protoss. You don't understand what you are talking about.
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On November 03 2010 12:10 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 12:01 Vehementus wrote:On November 03 2010 11:36 GoldenH wrote:Personally, I don't feel as though the Protoss game is very developed. I only have experience playing against them, but I feel as though their strategies are incredibly limited and easy to prepare for. I think part of it has to do with the lack of pro Protoss pioneers who delve into new strategies and the like, but we'll have to wait and see awhile. Its more like every strategy is nerfed into the ground. Early Zealot Pressure - timing nerfed Sentry Forcefields everywhere - energy and damge nerfed Void Rays - speed and damage nerfed Warp Prism - energy field radius nerfed Mothership - nerf nerf nerf High Templar - storm radius nerf, more nerf next patch Basically leaving us with Phoenix (Very good unit but also quite limited to harassment), Colossus (Still alright after being nerfed to 15 from 23 damage, due to splash stacking allowing critical mass, probably could be nerfed down to 12 damage without making it useless), Carrier (This lackluster unit viable only because it can't be hit by marauders, zerglings and roaches), and Immortal, which is mostly superior to the stalker but has a litany of hard counters, but at least they don't melt as fast as stalkers. Other units are simply bad - DT, Archon, Stalker, Cannon (2 Stalkers on hold move) or the required Observer. People really want to put Observer on the nexus to completely negate any economic advantage granted by chronoboost?! That should tell you just how desperate Protoss are to get out of being locked into robo play. Hey! Thanks for replying to something other than Zerg shit in this thread! I think Zealots are fine, personally. I think there's a misunderstanding between early pressure and cheese. The timing nerf affected cheese, that is, the 2proxy gate play you'd see prior to it. However, I don't think the pressure works out so well with Zealots as they're frankly, really slow. If you spawn far positions, then you're probably going to be out of luck. Zerg will typically tech to Roach to prepare for Protoss, and they can kite, and Terrans will have their wall up. I'm not adamant on the timings of all of it, however, but if you have replays to share that'd be awesome. -THAT SAID- I think Protoss has crap for early pressure. I also think that's a bit by design. Forcefields are absolutely amazing. I've lost to Protoss where I had a massive lead because of forcefield micro. I'd be willing to call them imba but I'm seeing them used less and less, which frankly confuses me. Forcefield is the strongest spell I can really think of. Void rays are still fine. I think they grow a bit underused in the higher tiers; but, they're not bad units by any means. Protoss use warp prisms? They should, but I'm not seeing it. Can't speak for the mothership. I know HuK uses them pretty flamboyantly, and I've seen some good play out of him with them, but I've also seen him horrifically mismicro one and lose a game. [Don't worry, that's Halo.] High Templar are also pretty incredible. I think they'll continue to be as such. I -do- think they come out a bit late, however, if at all. I'm going to preface this with "I don't play Protoss, but.." I don't really see a whole lot of neat sentry play when it comes to TvP. I have a pretty small breadth of the subject, I've only seen a few of the bigger matches, but to me it seems like when P is faced against a bioball, they just keep throwing Stalkers and Zealots at it. Knowing full well that they're at a disadvantage doing so until Colossi/HTs come out, why the insistence on sticking with those 2 units? I know the whole "Forced robo tech" mumbojumbo about the observer, but since it's pretty easy to split a bioball with forcefields, why aren't immortals used more to counteract Marauders? where do you play?? Dont tell me you never seen a "forcefield the ramp till that immortal comes so i dont lose flat" in PvT. This timming attack is so standard i bet you almost all protoss diamond players know this.
I have not. But I meant in terms of offensive pushes. There was an earlier comment about High TvP devolving into just making marauders for the Terran. I always seem to see people throw Stalkers/Zealots, or late in the game - Colossi against it. It seems to me, at the very least, that immortals would be more effective vs. Marauders than Colossi, and you'd have them earlier, and more of them.
Basically, I don't see a whole lot of variety out of Protoss. PvZ or PvT (The matches I have seen, most of which were HuK v X). I just want to know if it's because of the units, or because no one's really pushed any other styles. I know on the ladder, I still only really get 4gated. Maybe a Forge FE occasionally, but that's it.
On November 03 2010 12:18 Brian333 wrote:
Vehementus, you need to stop posting in this topic. This is no longer only an issue of you not playing protoss. It's not also apparently an issue of you not watching protoss and not reading enough about protoss. You don't understand what you are talking about.
So post and say what it is that's so horrible. I just want to know why so many feel that Protoss is limited to so few builds.
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I already made two lengthy posts in this topic regarding the viability of drop harass and Warp Prism play and the issue with HTs and storm.
You're the person that's talking about how you don't see enough FF play when good FFs are a STAPLE of all PvT offensive and defensive play at any reasonable level. Good FFs are MANDATORY in high level PvT if you want to win.
And people not making Immortals to counter Marauders just shows that you don't watch enough PvT to comment on it. It's a common strategy you start to see at gold level to hold you ramp against early MM pressure with FF while you get out a couple Immortals.
As for why they're not more common in PvT, they're expensive, slow to produce, slow on the field, occupy your robotics production queue so you aren't making Colossi, stim marines eat through Immortals, EMP totally negates their hardened shields, and they have bad synergy with stalkers because of range issues and dragoon-level-AI-pathing.
The thing is you're trying to comment on and understand issues with high-level balance when you don't even know the very basics of PvT. Go read up about the match-up, watch some matches, and then provide your opinion.
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@Vehementus
the immortal vs maradeurs fight is won by immmortal until it reaches a critical mass. Then with good target focus and because immortal takes longer to build and it is a slower unit, maradeurs ends up winning. Off course no1 masses 1 unit ( except T....) and protoss has sentries and zealots to deal with this. Please dont post about a matchup u dont understand alot.
When you say players just throw colossos,sentries and stalkers at them you still dont get the whole picture. Even if one is to commit to a stargate->void at that point T only needs to build some marines to counter it. And going HT sometimes isnt a viable option when you just got some naked colossos and handfull of gateway units while T is right there at your door.
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On November 03 2010 12:35 Brian333 wrote:
I already made two lengthy posts in this topic regarding the viability of drop harass and Warp Prism play and the issue with HTs and storm.
You're the person that's talking about how you don't see enough FF play when good FFs are a STAPLE of all PvT offensive and defensive play at any reasonable level. Good FFs are MANDATORY in high level PvT if you want to win.
And people not making Immortals to counter Marauders just shows that you don't watch enough PvT to comment on it. It's a common strategy you start to see at gold level to hold you ramp against early MM pressure with FF while you get out a couple Immortals.
As for why they're not more common in PvT, they're expensive, slow to produce, slow on the field, occupy your robotics production queue so you aren't making Colossi, stim marines eat through Immortals, EMP totally negates their hardened shields, and they have bad synergy with stalkers because of range issues and dragoon-level-AI-pathing.
The thing is you're trying to comment on and understand issues with high-level balance when you don't even know the very basics of PvT. Go read up about the match-up, watch some matches, and then provide your opinion.
I'm just trying to get discussion rather than complaints.
I really do not see the 'common' immortal strategy very often. However, in this thread I do see a lot of complaint of being forced into robo tech because of observers. Is the immortal strictly 'common' because you're forced into the robo, or is it standard in the sense that you'd get it without the observer?
From another perspective, when engaging a stim-hoppin' bioball as Zerg, you're typically equally fucked without favorable positions, whereas Protoss in my experience like to attack head-on. Do you think there'd be a significant difference if you split your force and hit from two sides? My concern for attacking directly is that charge/zea-lots wind up charging headfirst into a stimmed marauder wall with concussive shells. That could be avoided with better positioning. Does it not change the outcome?
Marine Stim is being looked at, for what it's worth. Wasn't aware the Immortals worked so poorly with Stalkers.
On November 03 2010 12:39 Hellye wrote:
@Vehementus
the immortal vs maradeurs fight is won by immmortal until it reaches a critical mass. Then with good target focus and because immortal takes longer to build and it is a slower unit, maradeurs ends up winning. Off course no1 masses 1 unit ( except T....) and protoss has sentries and zealots to deal with this. Please dont post about a matchup u dont understand alot.
When you say players just throw colossos,sentries and stalkers at them you still dont get the whole picture. Even if one is to commit to a stargate->void at that point T only needs to build some marines to counter it. And going HT sometimes isnt a viable option when you just got some naked colossos and handfull of gateway units while T is right there at your door.
Haha, I'm not suggesting a tech switch to Void rays vs. Marines. That's probably the worst idea I've ever heard. I'm just suggesting a heavier lean on robo units rather than pure Stalker/Zealot. When would the marauder critical mass be? Immortals are already significantly more expensive, but supply for supply, an Immortal should be able to beat 2 Marauders. Not suggesting you blindly go immortal only.
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So post and say what it is that's so horrible. I just want to know why so many feel that Protoss is limited to so few builds.
There should be enough legitimate reasons throughout this thread for you to figure out whats horrible. He doesn't need to regurgitate everything that has already been said.
Basically, I don't see a whole lot of variety out of Protoss. PvZ or PvT (The matches I have seen, most of which were HuK v X). I just want to know if it's because of the units, or because no one's really pushed any other styles. I know on the ladder, I still only really get 4gated. Maybe a Forge FE occasionally, but that's it.
You don't see a lot of variety from Protoss because, simply put, you have not watched enough games of different Protoss players.
On a side note, Protoss get punished severely for trying to be too fancy and veering away from gateway units -> ob -> robo units. Although that is just my observation after watching people in big tournaments veer off that path, so don't take that for absolute truth because I am fully aware that sometimes the experiments do work. They just don't occur as often as they should.
From another perspective, when engaging a stim-hoppin' bioball as Zerg, you're typically equally fucked without favorable positions, whereas Protoss in my experience like to attack head-on.
Zerg has banelings to deal with bioball, whereas Protoss try to deal with it with T3 units. Since marauders are not really efficient against zerg, these bioballs probably are marine balls in this case, making banelings an even more effective counter for bioballs (unless you have FoxeR's insane marine micro).
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P has the strongest late game that's why Blizzard is really scared of buffing them. Being able to warp in troops at will where you have power is a big reason why Blizzard basically crippled P's early game, because during the beta when P actually had quite a strong early game (fast immortals, retarded warpgate speed), they basically face rolled everyone into the ground.
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On November 03 2010 12:53 kalimari wrote:Show nested quote +
So post and say what it is that's so horrible. I just want to know why so many feel that Protoss is limited to so few builds.
There should be enough legitimate reasons throughout this thread for you to figure out whats horrible. He doesn't need to regurgitate everything that has already been said. Show nested quote +
Basically, I don't see a whole lot of variety out of Protoss. PvZ or PvT (The matches I have seen, most of which were HuK v X). I just want to know if it's because of the units, or because no one's really pushed any other styles. I know on the ladder, I still only really get 4gated. Maybe a Forge FE occasionally, but that's it.
You don't see a lot of variety from Protoss because, simply put, you have not watched enough games of different Protoss players. On a side note, Protoss get punished severely for trying to be too fancy and veering away from gateway units -> ob -> robo units. Although that is just my observation after watching people in big tournaments veer off that path, so don't take that for absolute truth because I am fully aware that sometimes the experiments do work. They just don't occur as often as they should. Show nested quote +
From another perspective, when engaging a stim-hoppin' bioball as Zerg, you're typically equally fucked without favorable positions, whereas Protoss in my experience like to attack head-on.
Zerg has banelings to deal with bioball, whereas Protoss try to deal with it with T3 units. Since marauders are not really efficient against zerg, these bioballs probably are marine balls in this case, making banelings an even more effective counter for bioballs (unless you have FoxeR's insane marine micro).
I'll read through the rest of the thread at a later point, as I am really interested in the matchup. I'd just rather read actual discussion than complaints.
That said, I think the lack of variety from Protoss is not a matter of not having watched enough. I believe it's a valid issue.
While not a perfect source, I think these illustrate the point:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy
Here's the thing: You get punished from veering away from what you know. That's how it works. New builds and strategies don't suddenly appear, you have to try something new and stick with it until you make something salvageable out of it.
Banelings are strong vs Bio, but they don't have to rely on them against a bio ball. That's why I mentioned the positioning as a factor of that. If a bioball runs in with the marauders in the front to absorb the damage, why not flank from behind?
Also, huge goof from BabyByeBye vs. BoxeR in Match 1, no way did he deserve to win that.
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There are two major problems with PvT.
1. Banshee - adds huge luck/random factor to the matchup. This unit singularly can decide the outcome of the game. I don't say its OP, its easily countered but it depends if lucky not on skill. Also this unit singularly dictates or rather restricts builds and strategies in early game against Z and P. But I find its stupid that one unit can win the game
2. HT - totally owns terran.
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On November 03 2010 11:36 Vehementus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:27 Silidons wrote:On November 03 2010 10:52 Vehementus wrote:On November 03 2010 10:02 Zealot Lord wrote:
I don't think Protoss needs too much changes to the individual unit stats themselves, as that may break the balance of the game, but a lot of the tech/research needs a complete overhaul in my personal opinion.
If they change storm, which they will for sure I think, I really hope its to do with the k.amulet and not the storm itself (nerfing that would make it essentially useless).
But I'd be fine with that if they compensated it with changes like:
-Charge research cost and time down to 150/150 instead of 200/200 (thats just WAY too expensive).
-Warp Prism movement speed research moved to Cybernetics Core instead of Robo Bay. This could encourage much more warp prism usage, and thus creative plays as well.
-Merging templar archives with dark shrine, that way you can tech up to storm tech tree while able to maintain some sort of harassment/defensive ability. As of now, due to the cost/time investment, DT's are pretty much a gimmick all in more often than not. But damage should probably be lowered slightly to compensate for easier accessibility.
-Hallucination energy cost down from 100 to 75.
-Archons should not be affected by concussive shells? Not sure on this one.
-Carrier build time cut at least by 25%
-Void Ray needs to be completely reworked again.
Finally, I don't know what would be fair, but Protoss needs one more detection method - no race is as prone to getting outright GG'ed by cloaked units. For a race thats supposed to be 'most advanced' kinda funny how they have so much less options than terrans when dealing with banshees/dt's etc. Charge is a VERY powerful ability, but it doesn't see much use. I think it has more to do with people opting not to take it than it does the cost. I like the idea of moving the Warp Prism upgrade to the CCore, as I'd like to see them used more. I think they stand give Protoss considerably more variety than we're seeing. No to the merging. That doesn't make any sense. DTs are EXCELLENT base defense. I rarely see people use them this way, but unless you're Terran and can drop a scan right then, Dark Templars can completely obliterate attacking units on a ramp, block them, and mess up their pathing. They can also often take out 3rds and on, with a good bit of ease. Zerg is equally prone to getting 'outright GG'd' by cloaked units. It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo. You make observers right? What kind of Protoss doesn't make observers? Sorry, I can't emphasize with this last argument of yours. Zerg is in much worse shape in this regard. I've never seen a zerg downright lose because of cloaked banshees. You can suicide a 100 mineral overlord to see what their doing...where as we can't even scout yet with the exception of putting a probe up the ramp and getting instantly killed by marines/marauders and seeing 1 barracks. I've never seen a Protoss downright lose because of cloaked banshees. So it doesn't happen. If we stay on base tech, as you are, then that overlord is the slowest piece of shit in the game and it's not going to see much of anything, if they know how to place their buildings/marines. That's before taking into account how long that overlord takes to travel from your hatchery. So we lose supply and 100 minerals. If we assume that we can get overlord speed, then you should already have an observer out. edit: Jesus...
Lol many a time toss loses because of banshee harass killing a shit ton of probes, putting them hella behind and then in 5-10 minutes they just lose because T army is much larger. I've never seen this happen to zerg.
Do you watch any GSL games? 9/10 times when a zerg is playing, and I will try to say something similar to Artosis "He knows EXACTLY what he's doing now! Great overlord placement!"
GG
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On November 03 2010 11:36 Vehementus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 11:27 Silidons wrote:On November 03 2010 10:52 Vehementus wrote:On November 03 2010 10:02 Zealot Lord wrote:
I don't think Protoss needs too much changes to the individual unit stats themselves, as that may break the balance of the game, but a lot of the tech/research needs a complete overhaul in my personal opinion.
If they change storm, which they will for sure I think, I really hope its to do with the k.amulet and not the storm itself (nerfing that would make it essentially useless).
But I'd be fine with that if they compensated it with changes like:
-Charge research cost and time down to 150/150 instead of 200/200 (thats just WAY too expensive).
-Warp Prism movement speed research moved to Cybernetics Core instead of Robo Bay. This could encourage much more warp prism usage, and thus creative plays as well.
-Merging templar archives with dark shrine, that way you can tech up to storm tech tree while able to maintain some sort of harassment/defensive ability. As of now, due to the cost/time investment, DT's are pretty much a gimmick all in more often than not. But damage should probably be lowered slightly to compensate for easier accessibility.
-Hallucination energy cost down from 100 to 75.
-Archons should not be affected by concussive shells? Not sure on this one.
-Carrier build time cut at least by 25%
-Void Ray needs to be completely reworked again.
Finally, I don't know what would be fair, but Protoss needs one more detection method - no race is as prone to getting outright GG'ed by cloaked units. For a race thats supposed to be 'most advanced' kinda funny how they have so much less options than terrans when dealing with banshees/dt's etc. Charge is a VERY powerful ability, but it doesn't see much use. I think it has more to do with people opting not to take it than it does the cost. I like the idea of moving the Warp Prism upgrade to the CCore, as I'd like to see them used more. I think they stand give Protoss considerably more variety than we're seeing. No to the merging. That doesn't make any sense. DTs are EXCELLENT base defense. I rarely see people use them this way, but unless you're Terran and can drop a scan right then, Dark Templars can completely obliterate attacking units on a ramp, block them, and mess up their pathing. They can also often take out 3rds and on, with a good bit of ease. Zerg is equally prone to getting 'outright GG'd' by cloaked units. It's much more likely that a Zerg hasn't gotten/finished his lair by the time they're hit by a cloaked push, banshees or DT's, than it is for a Protoss to be caught without a robo. You make observers right? What kind of Protoss doesn't make observers? Sorry, I can't emphasize with this last argument of yours. Zerg is in much worse shape in this regard. I've never seen a zerg downright lose because of cloaked banshees. You can suicide a 100 mineral overlord to see what their doing...where as we can't even scout yet with the exception of putting a probe up the ramp and getting instantly killed by marines/marauders and seeing 1 barracks. I've never seen a Protoss downright lose because of cloaked banshees. So it doesn't happen.
Maybe you should start actually watching PvTs. Nexgenius vs. Hopetorture Game 2 is perfect evidence as to why the only option is to go Robo. Game 3 is perfect evidence that even if you invest in scouting, there's still ridiculously hard pushes to hold off unless you blind counter. And Game 4 shows that Terran is far from underpowered in the late game.
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are you trolling? Really?
Also, huge goof from BabyByeBye vs. BoxeR in Match 1, no way did he deserve to win that.
This is the perfect example of how protoss strugles early game. The only thing which stands between complete game loss and actually getting to play the rest of the game is that FF the ramp trick. One mistake and you lose. zerg qq about how their macro is so much more difficult and how their units sucked, blizzard buffed the hell out of them ( with a good reason ). Now check what happens in every protoss early game and tell me if this isnt just bad game design. Protoss cant even leave the base or get crushed with equal or slighly higher food count.
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On November 03 2010 12:46 Vehementus wrote:
I really do not see the 'common' immortal strategy very often. However, in this thread I do see a lot of complaint of being forced into robo tech because of observers. Is the immortal strictly 'common' because you're forced into the robo, or is it standard in the sense that you'd get it without the observer?
From another perspective, when engaging a stim-hoppin' bioball as Zerg, you're typically equally fucked without favorable positions, whereas Protoss in my experience like to attack head-on. Do you think there'd be a significant difference if you split your force and hit from two sides? My concern for attacking directly is that charge/zea-lots wind up charging headfirst into a stimmed marauder wall with concussive shells. That could be avoided with better positioning. Does it not change the outcome?
Marine Stim is being looked at, for what it's worth. Wasn't aware the Immortals worked so poorly with Stalkers.
Early on, defending at somewhere that isn't your main/nat choke is begging to be kited to death by conc shells, later on, sure, surrounds are kind of viable, but the smaller groups are asking to get picked off with a quick stim, It works better for zerg because speedlings are soo fast
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On November 03 2010 13:47 Hellye wrote:are you trolling? Really? Show nested quote +Also, huge goof from BabyByeBye vs. BoxeR in Match 1, no way did he deserve to win that. This is the perfect example of how protoss strugles early game. The only thing which stands between complete game loss and actually getting to play the rest of the game is that FF the ramp trick. One mistake and you lose. zerg qq about how their macro is so much more difficult and how their units sucked, blizzard buffed the hell out of them ( with a good reason ). Now check what happens in every protoss early game and tell me if this isnt just bad game design. Protoss cant even leave the base or get crushed with equal or slighly higher food count.
No, I'm not.
Aside from the mismicro, I think part of the problem is the over-reliance on Forcefields to save you through the early game. There's no way you're going to defend an early push with just sentries. Even then, there are simple mistakes. When BoxeR's units were at the bottom of the ramp, during the first forcefield, Baby didn't attack him. He could have, they wouldn't have been able to fire back as the sentries had a height advantage. Those marines couldn't see up the cliff. There's a bloody challenge practically devoted to ramp forcefielding. Furthermore, he went Gate->CC against BoxeR's 2 Barracks. Had he opened with 2gate he could've maintained defensive against his literally trickled forces.
Sentries are important, but I think that players may be a bit disillusioned if they think they should be able to remain safe by building an army of forcefields, basically.
On November 03 2010 13:53 -{Cake}- wrote:
It works better for zerg because speedlings are soo fast
I agree, but Chargelots are nothing to scoff at. They close distance incredibly quickly. 200/200 is a bit hefty of an investment, however, compared to the 50/50 concussive shell.
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Someone sponsor mothership-Huk to get into GSL so we can see some Pro toss (pun intended) in the mix-up..
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Its just how it is. It depends on the skill level of the player. Its not imbalance or any sort of thing. They are doing well in other tournaments. And at the moment I would say the game is really balance. You got each race winning equal # of tournaments.
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On November 03 2010 13:36 bokeevboke wrote:
There are two major problems with PvT.
1. Banshee - adds huge luck/random factor to the matchup. This unit singularly can decide the outcome of the game. I don't say its OP, its easily countered but it depends if lucky not on skill. Also this unit singularly dictates or rather restricts builds and strategies in early game against Z and P. But I find its stupid that one unit can win the game
2. HT - totally owns terran.
Actually, Psionic Storm owns exactly one Terran unit: the marine. Although there are a couple of other fragile units it can be effective against, like the hellion and reaper, you won't ever see those massed enough to make it worthwhile.
Other Terran units do quite well against Storm. Marauders, for instance, survive quite well as long as there are a couple of medivacs available. Storms don't stack, and so if you look at any high-level play you'll see that storms kill almost no marauders simply because the marauders have enough health to escape and heal up quickly, even if the Protoss player is spamming storms.
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EPT
