|
On November 03 2010 23:27 ooni wrote:
The one with permenant cloak without research,
deals 45 a shot, most importantly
The one you can warp in multiple times simultaneously at any location with power field...
Honestly they are two different units get over it. People these days...
Damn, I didn't think about that, only 1 Banshee can be built at a time, regardless of how many starports you have.
Either way though, you're right. They are different units.
One has found valid uses in all match-ups, cloak is more of a bonus than a requirement.
The other has been relegated to being a back-seat unit due to its ridiculous tech requirements, high cost, and limited utility.
|
On November 03 2010 23:07 Bouja wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread but here's an idea.
I say remove cloak from banshees, they don't need it, they already do enough dmg as it is, and it forces toss to get obs.
If a toss player gets stargate and citadel but the terran teched cloacked banshees, it's often gg right there.
This idea is going to get snarled at but it makes me happy.
Then again, Stalkers getting quad damage would make me happy too.
Pah!
|
I will say this, I am against a nerf to banshees, they are a good, well-rounded unit. I just wish Protoss had similar options. Mutas for zerg are even BETTER than Banshees, as workhorse units that are useful all game.
Anyway, another point, this time about chrono boost:
Key to Protoss difficulties is chronoboost, which is supposed to be an advantageous mechanic. I disagree. In order to keep up with MULEs and spawn-larvae droning, Protoss must constantly be boosting probes for econ. Now while I'm not complaining about the difficulty of doing this, I suggest that BECAUSE of chronoboost, Protoss upgrades take a long time to research, because they ASSUME you will chronoboost them out. Frankly, without boosting them out Protoss is at a terrible disadvantage.
Charge: 140s
Stimpack: 140s (about the same, except stim is acquired so early due to it being a tech lab research)
Blink: 110s
Concussive: 60s
Thermal lance: 140s
Banshee cloak: 120s
Psionic storm: 110s
Siege mode: 80s
(Don't forget many of these terran abilities can be researched simultaneously due to having a bunch of tech labs. Twilight council upgrades must be researched sequentially.)
Therefore, while boost is supposed to help Protoss bring out tech earlier, it actually is required for them to bring tech out at a normal speed. The necessity of boosting probes to keep up with econ requires that it be used frequently, and for this it has a casting cost of only 25. Since this would give toss an enormous advantage if research took Terran/Zerg times to build, toss research times are accordingly higher, such that their boosted research time is equivalent to regular research times. Therefore, boosting is actually a disadvantageous mechanic, as it is assumed for balance reasons that at all times things are being boosted!
|
On November 03 2010 23:49 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:29 ~GhoSt wrote:
Tester however, is like the Nal_Ra of SC2 in my opinion Well you know what they say about opinions... Nal_rA actually managed to win something.
Haha, yea Nal_rA did, but I mean the impact he'll (Tester) bring/cause in a budding Protoss scene, I probably should've made that more clear. I have -faith- he's going to win something soon, or at least an emergance of "6 dragons" in SC2. I have seen more openings from Tester than any other protoss player, and I'm sure he's been in his lab along with July mastering their game. I hope/can't wait to see July in GSL3 along with Tester.
|
On November 03 2010 23:07 Bouja wrote:
I say remove cloak from banshees, they don't need it, they already do enough dmg as it is, and it forces toss to get obs.
If a toss player gets stargate and citadel but the terran teched cloacked banshees, it's often gg right there.
I just looked up the Banshee Cloaking Upgrade and realized it only takes 110 seconds.
There's your problem; it should be 140 at the very least. The price is plenty high (200/200) but the timing is too quick.
Although I'd personally enjoy controlling banshees more if they had a speed upgrade instead of stealth. I feel like Terran already has enough powerful-but-slow air units.
|
On November 04 2010 00:02 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:07 Bouja wrote:
I say remove cloak from banshees, they don't need it, they already do enough dmg as it is, and it forces toss to get obs.
If a toss player gets stargate and citadel but the terran teched cloacked banshees, it's often gg right there. I just looked up the Banshee Cloaking Upgrade and realized it only takes 110 seconds. There's your problem; it should be 140 at the very least. The price is plenty high (200/200) but the timing is too quick. Although I'd personally enjoy controlling banshees more if they had a speed upgrade instead of stealth. I feel like Terran already has enough powerful-but-slow air units.
Actually...that's not a bad idea, speed upgrade instead of cloak for banshee. It makes the user have to actually MICRO the banshee. For instance in the BoxeR vs. NaDa game1, boxer snuck in a cloaked banshee and let it run havok on NaDa's mineral line, so boxer was able to concentrate on the main engagement more so than his banshee. If Banshees maybe got an accelerate, and not so much a permanent speed boost, i think it would be more fair. Permanent speed boost like the ling would make banshees almost impossible to deal with, but an accelerate bonus like what void rays have would be fair
|
It feels to me like all of these problems (not to say that DTs, Carriers, the Mothership, cloaked banshee openings, are completely fine and should not be changed in some manner) ultimately go back to the general mediocrity of gateway units. The fact that a particular tech path requires a significant time and resource investment can be annoying, but it only starts to become a problem if you need the tech right now in order to not die. And this happens because your core units are simply not good enough. That's kind of how the Colossus works in PvT, for instance. This also produces the dreaded Robo reliance - but it's not that you need to build the Robo fairly early that's the limiting factor - it's that you have to commit to the tech path, because you die otherwise. You can't build a Robo, 2 observers, and then start templar or stargate tech.
So, a good solution would be to buff gateway units, and maybe nerf some of the tech, right? Nope. With the way Protoss mechanics are right now, any buff to Gateway units would immediately lead to them being way overpowered. The reason for this, is what I believe really holds Protoss back as a race, and has to do with the new stuff they've received in the BW -> SC2 transition. Namely, sentries and warpgate tech. I honestly believe that these two are simply too strong to warrant buffing Zealots or Stalkers in any way. And, strangely enough, their strength doesn't help with "staying alive" that much.
The reason warpgate tech holds protoss units back, is very simple, and everyone instantly understands it: it allows to reinforce attacks instantly, while not helping with defense at all (ignoring the build time reduction for the time being). It's supposed to compensate for poor Protoss mobility, and the tendency to work with huge, clumped up armies; early-game though, it just allows you to attack super-effectively. As long as you can get warpgate tech so early, gateway units need to be bad.
The second offender, in my opinion, is the Sentry. Forcefield is just too good for how easy it is to get a lot of sentries early. Zealots and Stalkers being good by themselves would make them overpowered in combination with a few sentries. I mean, for the time being, try to imagine SC2 is still in early development, and you, being a BW player, hear that Blizzard wants to give Protoss a fairly affordable T1.5 spellcaster with a very strong space-controlling spell baseline, for 50 energy, a good defensive aoe effect, also baseline, and which also deals pretty decent ranged damage. Practically uncounterable before t3, too. Sounds wildly overpowered, doesn't it? And again, it's surprisingly ineffective when it comes to defense. Sure, you can "FF your ramp" for a decently long time, but that's more of a gimmick than anything else. For one, it's not really defending, just buying time while the enemy force grows larger as reinforcements stream in. Secondly, it's impossible to guard expansions this way, at least on most of the current ladder maps.
Therefore, my way to "fix" Protoss would be to make sentries (or at least FF) and warpgates midgame tech, and not just instantly available the moment your Core finishes. Perhaps make Warpgate research require a T2 structure, and Sentries require a Twilight Council, or FF being researched on the TC? Then, you could redesign the Stalker by making it do good dps, but have less hp, for instance.
I really have no specific idea how to approach this problem, and am not naive enough to believe a change of this magnitude could happen before HotS. Still, this is my analysis of the current Protoss deficiencies.
tl;dr: Remove Warpgate Tech and Sentries/FF from Protoss early game, and buff Zealots/Stalkers.
|
On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 22:44 Severedevil wrote:
DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes.
I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP?
The one that has permanent cloak and is spammable?
|
On November 04 2010 00:24 quasit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 03 2010 22:44 Severedevil wrote:
DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes.
I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? The one that has permanent cloak and is spammable?
There's nothing spammable with a niche cloaked harasser that costs 125 / 125 and has a 45s cooldown that takes up a unit cycle (arguably two) on your main army producing structures. Absolutely nothing spammable about it.
|
Sigh... at this point it would take a truly gifted individual in the .0000001% category (closest to a god) to make protoss work cause at this point nothing works. When your underpowered you try to make up for it with all ins and hoping to roll the dice correctly and take a game. Works somewhat well in bo1 (but not really especially after they have been nerfed so hard it's now "joke tech") in single elimination + bo3 to bo7 in gsl protoss just can't hang out with the other race t t.
The following nerfs serve as a giant weight on toss that cause them to lose even when their skill is equal or better.
Zealot increased build time (who cares if everyone in 4v4 co-op was 2 gating your horrible ai)
Void Ray Nerfed by 40% (there goes the only unit that made terran think twice about 2 port banshee and marauder spam bullshit)
Observer cost increase from 75 gas to 100 gas: i love doing the 1 gate fe and chronoboosting that observer out like a good toss only to find out my terran opponent one based banshee with cloak, unfortunately, my peice of shit observer is at the terran base looking at the techlab starports while the cloaked banshee is raping my probe line.
Dark shrine cost increased to 250 gas build time increased: lol thanks for removing the only harass unit protoss has. it's now a cute all in that doesn't work at all. sad.
Sentry damage reduced: for the gas cost of a factory what a real joke, Blizzard i didn't mass sentry because sentry was OP, i massed sentry because the gateway units you gave me are absolute trash which becomes slightly even if i can split their army up and prevent them from just 1a move back 1a and destroying everything.
Roach Range Increase to Protoss - Sorry toss i know you were disadvantaged going into the patch with your inability to damage zerg economy, but now we're going to prevent you from any of your innovative build orders so zerg can own you more (29.6% vs zerg now how fair)
Blizzards message? We think Protoss late game is overpowered. LOL okay, if only i could even get to late game or even afford all that pricey tech you seem to be purchasing in your unit tester
I know this sounds like a major QQ thread but how would you feel if Zerg got nerfed instead of buffed in this patch? Cause protoss was already UP before, and now it''s borderline unplayable now that other race have learned how to play.
|
|
|
On November 04 2010 00:24 quasit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 03 2010 22:44 Severedevil wrote:
DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes.
I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? The one that has permanent cloak and is spammable?
It doesn't matter if it's not permanent, since it kills probes pretty fast, and has good enough range that it can evade cannons. How many probes can you kill in 20 seconds with a cloaked banshee?
|
The entire race is based on gimmick unit... Sentry, HT, mothership, DT.
A good placed force field can win the game... a bad placed cost you the game.
|
On November 04 2010 00:24 quasit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 03 2010 22:44 Severedevil wrote:
DTs at the Citadel would be pretty sick; you'd be able to get them in the opposing base at ~6 minutes.
I'm pretty sure the better suggestion is to put DTs in the Templar Archives. If that's too fast, you could also delay the Templar Archives to take 100 game-seconds to build. That wouldn't change the timing of DTs, but it would allow you to follow up DTs with Templar. (Or to threaten DTs while teching Templar.) Just for the record, Banshees with cloak take 280 seconds to make from the time you put down your Barracks. Dark Templar take 265 seconds from the first gateway assuming you managed to finish Warp Gate by the time your Shrine finishes. One of these flies. One of these has 6 range. One of these has 20 more health than the other. One of these is useful even without stealth. Which unit do you think is OP? The one that has permanent cloak and is spammable?
I would kill for something like banshee as protoss :/ Dts are in a dead end tree cost shit loads only good in PvP when other player is not going robo. Countered by Scans,Turets, Overseer ( which comes same time as rushed DT tech). If you don't do massive dmg with dt's your done and other players army is usually big enough to just go and kill you right there.
We need to have Warpgate tech removed completly and have our core buffed. As toss player i would have no problem with going back to queueing like in BW in order to get non pathetic gw units.
Other would be to reduce zel leg price to 50/50 conc shell price and blink to 100/100 stim price.
Crazy idea would be to allow Collosus kneel and not be targeted by air units for the price of movement :o pretty much like siege tanks.
Reduce Carrier build time by 30% then you could actually get them before dieing.
Still the only way to buff protoss for good players and not 4gate proes is remove warpgate tech, it was terrible idea and it has to go because it makes toss good for bad players and terrible for proes.
|
I get sick of the kids stuck in silver that say all you need is a warp prism, but haven't read the reasons why it it isn't favorable.
|
Blizzard buff the Stalker a bit , make it nearly same strong to a marauder or a roache.(Maybe the colossy will have to be nerfed a bit then) Second make the air units stronger that they are a falid choice of tech tree or reduce the cost. At least put the observer into the Gatways and all problems are dissolved. We woud have a toss , that have a few more falid strategies and isnt that crappy in early game.
And i woud wish that toss get a harras unit, dts are making you to much vulnerable becuase you have to make somthing like a "Allin". The tech is to expensive and making you committed into this tech.
PS: upgrade the health and shilds of warp prisme
|
On November 04 2010 00:46 IIDynamicII wrote:
Blizzard buff the Stalker a bit , make it nearly same strong to a marauder or a roache.(Maybe the colossy will have to be nerfed a bit then) Second make the air units stronger that they are a falid choice of tech tree or reduce the cost. At least put the observer into the Gatways and all problems are dissolved. We woud have a toss , that have a few more falid strategies and isnt that crappy in early game.
And i woud wish that toss get a harras unit, dts are making you to much vulnerable becuase you have to make somthing like a "Allin". The tech is to expensive and making you committed into this tech.
PS: upgrade the health and shilds of warp prisme
Buffing would make it op for 4WG rush with stalkers. Better would be 100minerals 30gas or something like a price nerf cos right now it doesn't deserve it's cost.
|
On November 04 2010 00:46 IIDynamicII wrote:
Blizzard buff the Stalker a bit , make it nearly same strong to a marauder or a roache.(Maybe the colossy will have to be nerfed a bit then) Second make the air units stronger that they are a falid choice of tech tree or reduce the cost. At least put the observer into the Gatways and all problems are dissolved. We woud have a toss , that have a few more falid strategies and isnt that crappy in early game.
And i woud wish that toss get a harras unit, dts are making you to much vulnerable becuase you have to make somthing like a "Allin". The tech is to expensive and making you committed into this tech.
PS: upgrade the health and shilds of warp prisme
Why not put every P unit into the Gateway? Almost half of P units are already there anyway.
For a unit that costs 200/0?
|
On November 03 2010 23:55 lowercase wrote:
I will say this, I am against a nerf to banshees, they are a good, well-rounded unit. I just wish Protoss had similar options. Mutas for zerg are even BETTER than Banshees, as workhorse units that are useful all game.
Anyway, another point, this time about chrono boost:
Key to Protoss difficulties is chronoboost, which is supposed to be an advantageous mechanic. I disagree. In order to keep up with MULEs and spawn-larvae droning, Protoss must constantly be boosting probes for econ. Now while I'm not complaining about the difficulty of doing this, I suggest that BECAUSE of chronoboost, Protoss upgrades take a long time to research, because they ASSUME you will chronoboost them out. Frankly, without boosting them out Protoss is at a terrible disadvantage.
Charge: 140s
Stimpack: 140s (about the same, except stim is acquired so early due to it being a tech lab research)
Blink: 110s
Concussive: 60s
Thermal lance: 140s
Banshee cloak: 120s
Psionic storm: 110s
Siege mode: 80s
(Don't forget many of these terran abilities can be researched simultaneously due to having a bunch of tech labs. Twilight council upgrades must be researched sequentially.)
Therefore, while boost is supposed to help Protoss bring out tech earlier, it actually is required for them to bring tech out at a normal speed. The necessity of boosting probes to keep up with econ requires that it be used frequently, and for this it has a casting cost of only 25. Since this would give toss an enormous advantage if research took Terran/Zerg times to build, toss research times are accordingly higher, such that their boosted research time is equivalent to regular research times. Therefore, boosting is actually a disadvantageous mechanic, as it is assumed for balance reasons that at all times things are being boosted!
i'd just like to comment that, if you play a "macro game" and you expand roughly the time you start to get over 2 workers a patch on mins + 2 gas, the orbital command costs 150 minerals, and you get what is 3 scvs assuming you never scan. If you account for 1 chrono boost more of less giving 1 bonus probe (well, like 2 probes during 1 chrono = 20 s vs 1 17 s probe but its close) it means that protoss has equaled the terran's macro mechanic before the terran gets his second mule. Basically 4 chrono boosts spent per nexus on probes is enough to overtake the terran in econ. The true power of mules is mining on oversaturated patches making them more comfortable on equal bases. Also, you seem to forget about combat shields which takes ages to upgrade, or all the zerg upgrades like NP = 110, ling speed roach speed 110 second tunneling = 110 burrow = 100. The only exceptions for P are charge and thermal lance 2 of the most powerful upgrades in the game along with stim and ling/roach speed. (mostly speed upgrades, but thermal is quite sick, 150/150 for grooved spines, +1 range, 200/200 for +3 range)
You rarely want both twilight council upgrades at the same time anyway. Blink is a harassment tool or its great for early game if you mass only stalkers. Charge is a rip your face off straight up for fighting upgrade and its a rare situation that both are needed.
Zerg macro mechanic is kinda sick though, but its only based on the fact that z production cannot otherwise keep up.with warpgates. The only difference from BW is the ability to stockpile larva, and I wouldn't mind having a cap of 7 but it would be another thing that punishes zergs if you don;'t do it optimally, i.e larva inject is already unforgiving, same with creep tumours//ovi spreading+creeping where you're crippling yourself if you don't. Should I then say all zergs should get a creep movement bonus all the time? Hell no. It makes a skill gap and it makes the cool element of play that is zerg trying to spread their territory and fighting on it and T/P trying to repell the infestation.
Blizzard does NOT assume all upgrades are chrono boosted. Example: Warpgate rushes were massively overpowered in all matchups including PvP when if was a fast upgrade. Chrono boost made it even more sick. Warpgate is still the only upgrade that is really deadly when its chrono boosted so thats probably the exception. Theres no real other upgrade that's like "oh shit if he gets blink out 20 seconds faster its a gamebreaker!" but if it suits your timings and you cut probes anyway, its nice to be able to chrono boost.
|
On November 04 2010 00:40 MegaBUD wrote:
The entire race is based on gimmick unit... Sentry, HT, mothership, DT.
A good placed force field can win the game... a bad placed cost you the game.
Do you even know what a gimmick is? Oh also, you dont actually need to use any of those units in any of the MUs (ok sentrys are pretty near vital, but not completely.) so how are those examples of how the race is gimmicky when most of those units are seldom used.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
