EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 41
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:08 GoldenH wrote: It's more like, Chronoboost wins economically after your 3rd mule, but only when the Protoss takes his third base, which terran can get at the same time. Don't forget to count the probe count / mineral saturation in your calculations. Each time a protoss casts chronoboost on a gateway early on, it costs him as much as half a scan. You get 2 chrono boosts after your pylon. You get 1 chrono boost before your gateway finishes. Thats around when T starts his orbital. You probably get another one by the time he mules. Thats 4. Half a scan is half a mule. But half a mule mines a set amount of minerals. You still get the next mule. Having 1 probe can mine 1000+minerals in a long game. or I can mine 20 minerals. You can't compare like that. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
i'd just like to comment that, if you play a "macro game" and you expand roughly the time you start to get over 2 workers a patch on mins + 2 gas, the orbital command costs 150 minerals, and you get what is 3 scvs assuming you never scan. If you account for 1 chrono boost more of less giving 1 bonus probe (well, like 2 probes during 1 chrono = 20 s vs 1 17 s probe but its close) it means that protoss has equaled the terran's macro mechanic before the terran gets his second mule. Basically 4 chrono boosts spent per nexus on probes is enough to overtake the terran in econ. Not quite, but pretty close. The reason is that chrono boosting after having 16 probes provides a smaller gain in income before that. Because the mule operates independent of saturation, only probes prior to 16 that are chrono boosted let you overcome Terran's income. You rarely want both twilight council upgrades at the same time anyway. Blink is a harassment tool or its great for early game if you mass only stalkers. Charge is a rip your face off straight up for fighting upgrade and its a rare situation that both are needed. I disagree. Blink saves stalkers. Protoss can't afford to keep replenishing stalkers after confrontations because they'll fall behind on other gas intensive units. Blink lets you save the stalkers (and gas it takes to replace them). Blink is just as crucial for the stalker's survivability against conc shells. Blizzard does NOT assume all upgrades are chrono boosted. Example: Warpgate rushes were massively overpowered in all matchups including PvP when if was a fast upgrade. Chrono boost made it even more sick. Warpgate is still the only upgrade that is really deadly when its chrono boosted so thats probably the exception. Theres no real other upgrade that's like "oh shit if he gets blink out 20 seconds faster its a gamebreaker!" but if it suits your timings and you cut probes anyway, its nice to be able to chrono boost. Khydarin amulet, psi storm, charge, and thermal lances are all game changing upgrades and all have absurd research times. Getting khydarin amulet out 20 seconds faster could mean the difference between losing and destroying his army, which is dumb in its own right. It's pretty silly when your highest tech ground units are less than mediocre (arguably awful) right out of the cooker. Zerg or Terran units don't suffer from this at all. Ravens, thors, medivacs, vikings, ultralisks, broodlords are all fantastic as soon as theyre available without needing a necessary upgrade. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:10 junemermaid wrote: Not quite, but pretty close. The reason is that chrono boosting after having 16 probes provides a smaller gain in income before that. Because the mule operates independent of saturation, only probes prior to 16 that are chrono boosted let you overcome Terran's income. I disagree, blink saves stalkers. Protoss can't afford to keep replenishing stalkers after confrontations because they'll fall behind on other gas intensive units. Blink lets you save the stalkers (and gas it takes to replace them). Blink is just as crucial for the stalker's survivability. Khydarin amulet, psi storm, charge, and thermal lances are all game changing upgrades and all have absurd research times. Getting khydarin amulet out 20 seconds faster could mean the difference between losing and destroying his army, which is dumb in its own right. 1: I always mentioned that. I said assume a "macro game" in which you are both constantly expanding. And then I said T is more comfortable on even bases beacuse of mule. 2: Blink saves stalkers, but stalkers are generally the last line of defense. Having some blink stalkers at the end vs a bunch of marauders, and it will make a slight difference in the battle but it does allow you to retreat. At the same time if you lose all your zealots/sentries and run your stalkers its not very helpful. If you have stalker colossus you want the stalkers to protect the colossus. 3: "Khydarin amulet, psi storm, charge, and thermal lances are all game changing upgrades and all have absurd research times. " They're game changing and therefore have long research times. Sounds reasonable. Some situations you need them ASAP, some it doesn't really matter at all because he's not going for a timing attack. Having chrono boost is a luxury that allows your builds more flexibility it isn't some handicap. Ravens need an upgrade to HSM, and 50 more energy to PDD. Templar have feedback which you can feedback a PDD for 50 energy and the most powerful spell in the game on upgrade. Thors are basically colossus without range. The reason you get colossus range is so they aren't sniped. Thors are never sniped, but the problem is gateway units aren't amazing on their own so the colossus is so uber powerful to account for that. Pheonix and vikings both need no upgrade and are similar units. Ultralisks need the +2 armour upgrade, and broodlords take a YEAR to morph greater spire+make corruptors+morph from corruptors AFTER you have a spire (takes 100 seconds to build) and hive. Sheesh. | ||
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IIDynamicII
14 Posts
On November 04 2010 00:55 Zrah wrote: Buffing would make it op for 4WG rush with stalkers. Better would be 100minerals 30gas or something like a price nerf cos right now it doesn't deserve it's cost. But this brings me to the Point of my view. thx you  Since the patch the Stalker is more then before weak for a T1 unit compared to other, that gives the Zerg room for powerdroning becuase they feel like " i dont need to have scarre of any inc from toss" i can hold it with a bit effort.The Result is that Zergs come really strong into the mid and lategame. (There are still a few falid strategies to make pressure but they are less effektiv actually and risky) Vs. a Terran you have to hide as a toss anyways till you get colossy out or hts( 2 bases needed) or a solid force with a very good gatewayunitmix+immos and prefect placed force fields. The Result is that terra has mapcontroll and can expand much earlyer then a toss. So a stronger Stalker woud equal the early gameplay in my eyes. Becuase it is possibel to hold a 4 gate for the both other race. And actually it looks like a Protoss have always make somthing more to survive or to win. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
The stalker's speed/range and high hp and anti air make it so well balanced which is why its so poor in a straight up fight. Marauders and roaches have/need UPGRADES for speed (zomg) roaches have low range and neither have anti air. The only other unit similar to the satlker is the hydralisk except it doesn't have the speed off creep and its basically considered terrible because of that. A large army of hydras, roaches or marauders can be taken out by a few units (air//colossus (vs offcreep hydra with micro LOL/storm0 but nothing takes out a large army of stalkers that isn't reasonably up to par on cost. If it wasn't for concussive shells, PvT would be a LOT different early game. (zealots in small numbers roflstomp bio) | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
Say a Warpgate starts only being able to warp in stuff within 30 radius of the gateway and then just grows as time goes up. Other solutions include giving Warpgates limited range and then a research to place anywhere in a Power Zone on Twilight Council, or just delaying Warpgate itself to Twilight Council Yes, I realize that this will be a major tweak and will need a lot of time to refine, but it is stupid to have crap Tier 1 unit before upgrades just because all retards do are 4 gate all-ins | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:30 david0925 wrote: Maybe adding a range that increases with time for Warpgate can alleviate the dilemma we have with Warpgate All-ins? Say a Warpgate starts only being able to warp in stuff within 30 radius of the gateway and then just grows as time goes up. Other solutions include giving Warpgates limited range and then a research to place anywhere in a Power Zone on Twilight Council, or just delaying Warpgate itself to Twilight Council Yes, I realize that this will be a major tweak and will need a lot of time to refine, but it is stupid to have crap Tier 1 unit before upgrades just because all retards do are 4 gate all-ins You have to take into account that 4 warpgate allin's are only really strong because Protoss's macro mechanic springs WAY ahead of T/Z in the early game before inject/mule which is the main reason P 4 warpgate is so strong. Warpgate tech just means that not only do you have a bigger army, but you also can warp them in so its like playing on a shared base 2v2 map in 1v1 as far as distances are concerned. Perhaps they could buff protoss but make chrono boost start collecting when you finish a gateway, that would weaken cannon rush and warpgate allin but at the same time allow the P midgame to be brought up to par. It feels like the powershift is like this: Start-->first pylon/depot/ol balanced. First pylon-->first mule/inject pops P WAY ahead Stim//2 hatch 2 queen zerg -->first colossus//stormer Z/T WAY ahead. First colossus//storm: Sides equal. 4th/5th/6th colossus//templar P WAY ahead Hive tech evens it for Z, but T's lategame can't beat that many colossus/HT easily, but generally relies on constant fights to reset the colossus count. (if you clump HT too much and don't feedback ghosts you can emp most of them, but you can't forget warp in more templar to storm) | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
Blizzard mentioned that stimmed marines are actually overpowered at Blizzcon. And believe it or not I tested it on unit tester map: equal upgrades 20 stimmed marines vs 10 speedlots without micro (equal cost). Marines win, 6 stay alive. If microed 10 marines stay alive. Now, lets analyze. Marines shoot air and ranged, versatile unit. Zealots melee and specialize in GtG fight. In a perfect world zealots should win but they don't. Now list of P units countered by marines: Zealot Stalker Sentry DT Immortal Carrier Phoenix Void Ray. Mothership Pretty impressive, huh? Edit: Have to test it vs Archons, but who cares, HTs are much better. | ||
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IIDynamicII
14 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:27 Slayer91 wrote: Buffing stalker would be absurd. The reason its weak early game PvT is because marauders are the direct counter but have no counter early game. If marauders were'nt around they'd dominate early game just like BW. Hellions, banshees, marines, unsieged tanks, all dominated by stalkers. Zerg would lose every game to 4 warpgate on maps you can't mass spinecrawler. Already protoss are sending out 1-2 stalkers to harass early zerg before ling speed because they don't die. The stalker's speed/range and high hp and anti air make it so well balanced which is why its so poor in a straight up fight. Marauders and roaches have/need UPGRADES for speed (zomg) roaches have low range and neither have anti air. The only other unit similar to the satlker is the hydralisk except it doesn't have the speed off creep and its basically considered terrible because of that. A large army of hydras, roaches or marauders can be taken out by a few units (air//colossus/storm0 but nothing takes out a large army of stalkers that isn't reasonably up to par on cost. Really cant agree with you. most arguments you point out are on the paper right but ingame you get another impression of the gameplay and there implementation. I dont talk about making Stalker op...just make it more close to the potential of a marauder or a roach woud equal the game. why woud a less good stalker dominate a better marauder or a roach. I think actually the gap between eachother is to big."(Already protoss are sending out 1-2 stalkers to harass early zerg before ling speed because they don't die.)" same like helions till speedupgrade comes into play not a big deal. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:41 IIDynamicII wrote: Really cant agree with you. most arguments you point out are on the paper right but ingame you get another impression of the gameplay and there implementation. I dont talk about making Stalker op...just make it more close to the potential of a marauder or a roach woud equal the game. why woud a less good stalker dominate a better marauder or a roach. I think actually the gap between eachother is to big."(Already protoss are sending out 1-2 stalkers to harass early zerg before ling speed because they don't die.)" same like helions till speedupgrade comes into play not a big deal. You get another impression because you're the one who thinks stalkers need to be buffed. I just said that stalkers are never designed to be close to the potential of the roach/marauder because they're specialized anti ground that can only really fight in big battles. Protoss sending out stalkers allows them to force zerg to make lings early on, something you claimed protoss can't do. (spine crawler maps can deny it though, open maps are ones you need lings.) The stalker should not be compared to the marauder or roach. The immortal is the unit that is like the maruder/roach. Sick good in battles but don't have the versatility that the stalker does. You'll find the immortal is about the same vs light units as 2 stalkers (same cost/supply) but far better than the stalker, roach and marauder against armoured. Roaches are obviously better against light units. and yeah, stimmed marines are sick good but so are storm and colossus and banelings so it works out pretty ok. I don't like the way some units are underpowered and just balanced out by overpowered units though. Make everything overpowered! | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:10 Slayer91 wrote: You get 2 chrono boosts after your pylon. You get 1 chrono boost before your gateway finishes. Thats around when T starts his orbital. You probably get another one by the time he mules. Thats 4. Half a scan is half a mule. But half a mule mines a set amount of minerals. You still get the next mule. Having 1 probe can mine 1000+minerals in a long game. or I can mine 20 minerals. You can't compare like that. Sure I can. You can look at the rate of mule mining. 50 energy = 1 mule that mines at the rate of 3 probes. You'll generally have 1.5 mule out at a time. So that's 5 probes. Then ask, "How many times does the chronoboost have to be used to get those probes?" About 10 times. So, once the chronoboost has been used 10 times, the Protoss' income is now the same as a mule. We can compare the 150 mineral OC cost to the 250 mineral probe cost, and determine when one starts to make its profit, then how long until the protoss catches up & surpasses the total amount of minerals gained, etc. Its very easy to find the earliest point at which Chronoboost > Mules. The question of how much better Chronoboost is late game than Mules is an open one. Personally I feel they are about equal. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 03 2010 20:31 AFCArt wrote: yeah that cannon comparison made no sense at all. forgot drone cost and loss, forgot that cannon can attack ground and makes up that turret has splash. I do think turrets are quite cheap though. about the DT. It does 45! damage. that's more than the biggest zerg unit, the ultralisk which is I think 15(+15). You don't have to use them just for harass. They can be awesome in your main army too. I can imagine vs Terran u can harass a lot to if u don't send them in all at once but rather 1 each minute. Waste all their scans or force them to make a raven. Try to look at units from a more wholistic perspective rather than looking at individual traits. DT's Powerful unit? Check High Damage? Check Cloak? Check Map Control? Check (and this is actually really important, I think protoss need to take a look at the unit as one of the best map control devices we have, especially vs. terran.) Sounds pretty awesome right? Now consider what happens when you build even one... They either, have detection already or make a lateral move to get detection very quickly, maybe suffering some damage in the process. They have to respond to DTs because if they dont, they will lose very quickly. The same is the idea of the phoenix harass in PvZ. Phoenix harass or stargate openers are a way of "forcing" your opponent into playing a certain way or building a response. A major problem with the DT variant though, is that there is nowhere to go from there. You spend all these resources on a tech with very simple responses from all other races and you have nowhere to go. Matchups: PvT: Dark Templars are useful unless/until they have a turret, probably the most useful matchup because it can slow down Muling, but your attacks have to come very early and have to be well thought out (e.g. sending them in separate, spreading them out properly, sniping scvs building turrets if they try to build them on the spot) because midgame they will have a billion responses readily available and the unit loses one of its two dimensions, harassment. PvZ: If a zerg player doesn't have some overseers by the time you can get DTs they deserve to lose, period. I played against a zerg that tried to get away with a 600 resource army 10 minutes into the game then got mad when I walked in and crushed him. He literally built a handful of lings and all drones and then was surprised he lost and claimed i was OP because I can seal off a ramp. How about spending some resources and keeping your army forward rather than trying to make the late game happen earlier than its supposed to? PvP: hard to justify because robo is so popular, good if you know they opened stargate, which is rare... but then again phoenix are such good scouts id be surprised if you got the DTs out fast enough to stop the 1 photon cannon that will instantly put you behind even with all these resources put into tech. I do agree with the above quoted poster that against zerg opponents you can mix them in with your army, but its not ideal or even good. It really depends on user error on their part. Its pretty common to see them run around with no overseer(s)... we call this bad play. I think if its late game you need to be using a couple overseers above your army... that way even if the toss tries to snipe it, hes sacrificing damage that could be going against your units. Additionally, overseer detection range is huge, you can position them completely safe, making it stupid to pick them off. With the exception of PvT: The DT unit really relies on your opponents mistakes rather than any amount of cleverness on your part. Its a powerful unit, but its a fairly dead end tech, risky, expensive, and cheesey at best. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:53 GoldenH wrote: Sure I can. You can look at the rate of mule mining. 50 energy = 1 mule that mines at the rate of 3 probes. You'll generally have 1.5 mule out at a time. So that's 5 probes. Then ask, "How many times does the chronoboost have to be used to get those probes?" About 10 times. So, once the chronoboost has been used 10 times, the Protoss' income is now the same as a mule. We can compare the 150 mineral OC cost to the 250 mineral probe cost, and determine when one starts to make its profit, then how long until the protoss catches up & surpasses the total amount of minerals gained, etc. Its very easy to find the earliest point at which Chronoboost > Mules. I don't understand your math at all.. You get 1 mule up constantly (like +/- 1 second or somethin) if you macro is prefect. That's 3 probes. That's 3 chrono's. It still doesn't compare to scan. Scanning as a terran is similar to pulling off 3 probes, then run around the map and then come back in like 30-45 seconds. It doesn't cost you any probes it just loses a static amount of minerals. Chrono boost gives your minerals based on how long the game is running. Comparing DTs to banshees is depressing. Banshees win in like every respect. Why do they even need cloak. Fair enough wraiths needed it because they were terrible units without cloak, banshees are amazing units and cloak is just another thing people have to worry about in TvT/TvP/TvZ. I don't think being forced into ebay/robo/lair against a terran than techs to factory is all that important to gameplay. | ||
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IIDynamicII
14 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:45 Slayer91 wrote: You get another impression because you're the one who thinks stalkers need to be buffed. I just said that stalkers are never designed to be close to the potential of the roach/marauder because they're specialized anti ground that can only really fight in big battles. Protoss sending out stalkers allows them to force zerg to make lings early on, something you claimed protoss can't do. (spine crawler maps can deny it though, open maps are ones you need lings.) The stalker should not be compared to the marauder or roach. The immortal is the unit that is like the maruder/roach. Sick good in battles but don't have the versatility that the stalker does. You'll find the immortal is about the same vs light units as 2 stalkers (same cost/supply) but far better than the stalker, roach and marauder against armoured. Roaches are obviously better against light units. and yeah, stimmed marines are sick good but so are storm and colossus and banelings so it works out pretty ok. I don't like the way some units are underpowered and just balanced out by overpowered units though. Make everything overpowered! But the immortal tech force the protoss to 1 dimensional play. And make the immortal to a must have. That makes them vulnerable to tech switches of the enemys (Zerg and Terra can switch much easier Tech). And if a stalker isnt designed fo it it shoud be changed becuase in real it´s used as a backbone of the Protoss armee. | ||
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Strainless
3 Posts
A simple nerf without changing damage ratios or anything game altering like that, would to just increase the cost for Terran's T1 units (especially Marines). Terran can simply outlive Protoss by remaking an entire army, where Protoss would struggle, even in a macro game. That would put Terran and Protoss on the same playing field, you could wipe their army walk up to their base, and they would only JUST start getting new units, rather than the newly formed army waiting for you, fresh out of the barracks. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 04 2010 01:55 Slayer91 wrote: I don't understand your math at all.. You get 1 mule up constantly (like +/- 1 second or somethin) if you macro is prefect. That's 3 probes. That's 3 chrono's. It still doesn't compare to scan. Scanning as a terran is similar to pulling off 3 probes, then run around the map and then come back in like 30-45 seconds. It doesn't cost you any probes it just loses a static amount of minerals. Chrono boost gives your minerals based on how long the game is running. Sorry I've had trouble on the energy regen aspect. I used to think it was 1 second per energy, which isn't right, its like .58 game seconds or something per energy.. So yeah, only one mule at a time. But 3 chronos will only reduce probe time by 30 seconds, each probe takes 17 seconds to build, so, you need 5 chronos for 3 probes. Chrono boost opportunity cost is still possible to calculate, because your total resources will go down as compared to constantly chrono boosting your nexus. The total lower resources will not dissapear over time. | ||
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Polatrite
United States135 Posts
On November 03 2010 13:58 Vehementus wrote: I agree, but Chargelots are nothing to scoff at. They close distance incredibly quickly. 200/200 is a bit hefty of an investment, however, compared to the 50/50 concussive shell. Chargelots charge once, get a volley of concussive shells thrown at them by stim marauders, the opponent then executes one move command to kite backwards with stim speed, then start firing at 4 range. Charge is on cooldown and the Zealots move at 50% speed until Charge is back off cooldown in 10 seconds. The stim marines in the group finish them off long before them. This is a 200/200 upgrade at tier 3 with a build time of 140 seconds, versus 150/150 worth of upgrades available in tier 1.5 with a build time of 200 seconds. In addition, 100/100 of those upgrades result in an outright DPS increase of 50% on all your core units with a survivability decrease of roughly 15% that can be mitigated by Medivacs. Meanwhile, Charge allows you to hit the opponent once before you are kited for 10 seconds by anyone with platinum level micro, with exactly one type of unit. Chargelots are good, but there's a reason the upgrade is often passed straight by. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
You can't just look at the two GSLs we have had and say toss is broken, and completely ignore the successes they are having elsewhere. | ||
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