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Thinking now, I think Protoss would benefit greatly by making the robo bay cheaper (so they can either have two or a robo and a twilight council), and by making immortals cheaper.
Immos counter marauders and roaches very well, it's just that you need to build a observer first and the timing (while getting a support bay for colossi) is just not right that you get out one immo before switching to colossus production. Immortals get clobbered by MMM and ghosts later game, but it would be nice to be able to counter-push with a good stalker/immo army before ghosts come out (by then you should have transitioned to colossi).
And some people said psi-storm is the most powerful spell in the game... i think we all have to agree that that distinction has gone to fungal growth now.
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On November 04 2010 03:49 lowercase wrote:
Thinking now, I think Protoss would benefit greatly by making the robo bay cheaper (so they can either have two or a robo and a twilight council), and by making immortals cheaper.
Immos counter marauders and roaches very well, it's just that you need to build a observer first and the timing (while getting a support bay for colossi) is just not right that you get out one immo before switching to colossus production. Immortals get clobbered by MMM and ghosts later game, but it would be nice to be able to counter-push with a good stalker/immo army before ghosts come out (by then you should have transitioned to colossi).
And some people said psi-storm is the most powerful spell in the game... i think we all have to agree that that distinction has gone to fungal growth now.
I totally agree about psi storm - I play random, and fungal growth is far more powerful than storm, and faster/easier to get as well. It both ensnares and damages targeted units and has great synergy with the infestor's other primary spell, the infested terran (which you can also cast when burrowed). If multiple storms stacked, which they do not, psi storm would probably be better (though this would probably be imbalanced vs hydras and MM). Another alternative might be if storm slowed the units in the AOE as well.
Really though, I think the main issue is how long psi storm takes to research. I'd even suggest that making it a default (no research required) ability but raising its energy cost a little might make it more useful.
The heavy gas requirements for high templar themselves as well as the required research make it difficult to get both an adequate sentry count and enough high templar to form an effective army, especially if some sentries are picked off in the early-mid game.
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So I skimmed this thread and found a whole bunch of balance talk. What Protoss in the GSL can you even say has done almost all the right things and still lost? IMO the best Protoss player didn't even make it to the RO64 because of a tough qualifying bracket (Tester). This is a bunch of kneejerk "I know what the problem is" when really it's more likely that with all the changes in the recent patch there are some new timings that need to be figured out. Also you can't fricking take a fast expo against zerg now which we saw multiple times. There is no Protoss player who I've seen this season who really makes me think "this guy has what it takes to go the distance if only this game were balanced".
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On November 04 2010 04:03 LuciD` wrote:
So I skimmed this thread and found a whole bunch of balance talk. What Protoss in the GSL can you even say has done almost all the right things and still lost? IMO the best Protoss player didn't even make it to the RO64 because of a tough qualifying bracket (Tester). This is a bunch of kneejerk "I know what the problem is" when really it's more likely that with all the changes in the recent patch there are some new timings that need to be figured out. Also you can't fricking take a fast expo against zerg now which we saw multiple times. There is no Protoss player who I've seen this season who really makes me think "this guy has what it takes to go the distance if only this game were balanced".
I agree with this. My comments were based on my general thoughts from watching way too many pro games and a little bit from my own experience playing all races.
Right now I agree that the best pros, generally speaking, are represented by Terran followed by Zerg followed by Protoss.
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On November 04 2010 04:03 LuciD` wrote:
So I skimmed this thread and found a whole bunch of balance talk. What Protoss in the GSL can you even say has done almost all the right things and still lost? IMO the best Protoss player didn't even make it to the RO64 because of a tough qualifying bracket (Tester). This is a bunch of kneejerk "I know what the problem is" when really it's more likely that with all the changes in the recent patch there are some new timings that need to be figured out. Also you can't fricking take a fast expo against zerg now which we saw multiple times. There is no Protoss player who I've seen this season who really makes me think "this guy has what it takes to go the distance if only this game were balanced".
Nexgenius!!!! He is a very very good player ( blizzcon champion?? ). He only loses when opponnents use the protoss issues. He lost to a banshee rush and a thor rush in GSL Both builds cannot be scouted and are total flip coins. This is the real problem with protoss. Not that our tier 1 is the worse. We have a fixed build! If one doesnt open robo blind he will lose or its almost an all in.
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On November 04 2010 04:11 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:03 LuciD` wrote:
So I skimmed this thread and found a whole bunch of balance talk. What Protoss in the GSL can you even say has done almost all the right things and still lost? IMO the best Protoss player didn't even make it to the RO64 because of a tough qualifying bracket (Tester). This is a bunch of kneejerk "I know what the problem is" when really it's more likely that with all the changes in the recent patch there are some new timings that need to be figured out. Also you can't fricking take a fast expo against zerg now which we saw multiple times. There is no Protoss player who I've seen this season who really makes me think "this guy has what it takes to go the distance if only this game were balanced". I agree with this. My comments were based on my general thoughts from watching way too many pro games and a little bit from my own experience playing all races. Right now I agree that the best pros, generally speaking, are represented by Terran followed by Zerg followed by Protoss.
Theres no doubt that former SC1 pros are doing the best in the GSL for the first two seasons. But that just begs the question why are none of them protoss? If its because protoss was weak in SC1 and are not good enough in SC2 to warrant a switch, theres still a problem. Without a buff to toss and their growing record of fail in these tournaments why would a player good enough to win risk playing Protoss?
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On November 04 2010 04:30 Moragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:11 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote:On November 04 2010 04:03 LuciD` wrote:
So I skimmed this thread and found a whole bunch of balance talk. What Protoss in the GSL can you even say has done almost all the right things and still lost? IMO the best Protoss player didn't even make it to the RO64 because of a tough qualifying bracket (Tester). This is a bunch of kneejerk "I know what the problem is" when really it's more likely that with all the changes in the recent patch there are some new timings that need to be figured out. Also you can't fricking take a fast expo against zerg now which we saw multiple times. There is no Protoss player who I've seen this season who really makes me think "this guy has what it takes to go the distance if only this game were balanced". I agree with this. My comments were based on my general thoughts from watching way too many pro games and a little bit from my own experience playing all races. Right now I agree that the best pros, generally speaking, are represented by Terran followed by Zerg followed by Protoss. Theres no doubt that former SC1 pros are doing the best in the GSL for the first two seasons. But that just begs the question why are none of them protoss? If its because protoss was weak in SC1 and are not good enough in SC2 to warrant a switch, theres still a problem. Without a buff to toss and their growing record of fail in these tournaments why would a player good enough to win risk playing Protoss?
Very true, and I admit I used to play Protoss before switching to random since honestly, there are too many ways to screw up (misplaced or mistimed forcefields, even a slightly wrong tech choice, etc.) that are pretty much insta-gg's as Protoss compared to the other races.
Right now, if a new pro-hopeful player had to pick a solid race to build a career on, focusing on general, flexible builds to start with, I feel like Zerg and Terran would be the top two choices of nearly everyone.
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Not really significant.
Given complete balance, the chance of no toss in the final 4 is about 20%. The chance of any one race missing from final 4 is around 60%. Most of the time, one race will be gone in the final 4.
The chance of 1 or fewer toss in the final 8 is quite high at 20%, and the chance of any one race being down to only 1 or fewer in the top 8 is probably at least 50%. Again, it will be a common occurrence in future GSLs for a race to be down to 1 player by Ro8.
And given that only 1 toss was present in the final 8, we can certainly see a 50% chance (given balance) that he would be eliminated in Ro4.
So the observation, as a whole, is meaningless. The GSL results do not suggest that any imbalance, skill differential, or lack of representation of protoss players is occurring.
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blizzard stated that they were reviewing pvt atm. they stated that terran is too strong early game and protoss is too powerful late game. hopefully, they can make adjustments so that protoss doesnt have to be entirely robo dependent by having a more stable early game.
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On November 04 2010 04:39 XequR wrote:![[image loading]](http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6463/6644538624.jpg)
hahah that is genius.. not NEXgenius.. but genius overall.
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On November 04 2010 03:20 FLuE wrote:
Ok so if the issue is that HT are taking to long to be effective when needing then address that, and maybe look at the cost of that tech path, because I always think that balance is sometimes more about the timing then the strength of the units. The HT is very strong, very underused, and I also know that was the case in SC very early but as people got better with their storm play it was amazing to see how much could be held off with some photons and some HT. Perhaps it needs to be available earlier and cheaper to get there.
You also completely ignore photon cannons as a tool to harass which might be one of the best harass tool in the game now especially vs. zerg. No way a toss can harass? Give me a break, my ramp patrolling drone says otherwise.
In SC2, average DPS is higher than in BW; however, Storm DPS was cut in half. Just because it was effective in one game does not make it good in another. Roaches destroy cannoned ramps with 4 range, a fact you would know if you actually knew what you were talking about. Currently pros have been using robo-centric play, probably because it is the most viable, not because they hadn't thought to use other options. As to the OP, I think it's a combination of current top Toss under performing a little and less harassment options.
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On November 04 2010 04:39 da_head wrote:
blizzard stated that they were reviewing pvt atm. they stated that terran is too strong early game and protoss is too powerful late game. hopefully, they can make adjustments so that protoss doesnt have to be entirely robo dependent by having a more stable early game.
So that means we can expect nerfed Marines and nerfed HT/Colossi?
BTT: But imho it's just a matter of time till the game gets more stable beacuse they had to adjust to the Roach buff on the fly and it. Maybe it is also a problem with the current map pool that we don't see more Toss in the Ro4 in GSL.
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Now I want an OBAMA NERF TERRAN shirt...
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I stopped reading after "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?", that's ur first mistake. There should be "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?".
Your phrase make it sound it's protoss it's wrong with, when infact as always it's the players who play the race that should be judged rather then the entire Protoss race. I get what you that you mean that though, but all dont get it.
So to avoid flaming in the future which u must have been here I'd suggjest u to stay closer to fact.
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I stopped reading after "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?", that's ur first mistake. There should be "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?"
I stopped reading at "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?" because that is the worst grammar ever.
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lol zekk "it's the players who play the race". Can you tell me exactly in what way is Cool better than Huk or Boxer better than Idra or Foxer than Tester???? The fact that we have no exact measure of skill to begin with and the game is still in its 1.xx stage makes it very difficult to determine whether a race is UP or OP solely based on the players playing the race. That is why we need to look at results in big events.
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On November 04 2010 05:44 Torture wrote:Show nested quote +I stopped reading after "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?", that's ur first mistake. There should be "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?" I stopped reading at "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?" because that is the worst grammar ever.
To be fair, they're both equally poor grammar.
"Doing so bad" and "doing good" are both technically incorrect. "Doing so poorly" and "doing well" would obviously be the correct phrases.
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On November 04 2010 04:00 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote:
Really though, I think the main issue is how long psi storm takes to research. I'd even suggest that making it a default (no research required) ability but raising its energy cost a little might make it more useful.
How about having it as default but the templar warps in without enough energy for storm unless the amulet is researched?
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They already warp in without enough energy unless the amulet is researched so yes that would be a buff but blizzard has talked about nerfing storm in the next patch, not buffing it.
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EPT
