EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 44
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FrostNixon
Bulgaria215 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
they will charge at the enemy, your slow sentry/temps are stuck behind, enemy kites back, zlots die before the rest of your army even engages instead of charge id much rather have a real speed upgrade like in bw did anyone ever try to disable charge autocast? would be nice if zlots got a speed boost with disabled autocast. or at least if the cooldown was lower and it would autocast on retreat also or something like that i hope the storm change makes storm more powerful but cost more energy. that would be the way to go, the ability to instantly morph in templars anywhere with pylon power AND being able to storm instantly is clearly OP, so thats why storm was nerfed in the first place | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
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toadstool
Australia421 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:14 ZeKk wrote: I stopped reading after "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?", that's ur first mistake. There should be "why is no protoss player doing good in the GSL?". Your phrase make it sound it's protoss it's wrong with, when infact as always it's the players who play the race that should be judged rather then the entire Protoss race. I get what you that you mean that though, but all dont get it. So to avoid flaming in the future which u must have been here I'd suggjest u to stay closer to fact. The fact is that 2 former Protoss players Clare and IntoTheRainbow are doing REALLY well, while Sangho and IrOn who are currently better Protoss players in sc:bw failed miserably. So the options are: *changing your race to Terran magically makes you a better player, and you make fewer mistakes and get further in tournaments. Magically. *there is imbalance in PvT in the higher levels | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:00 EriktheGuy wrote: Now I want an OBAMA NERF TERRAN shirt... Hes already NERFING AMERICA | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
On November 04 2010 03:20 FLuE wrote: Ok so if the issue is that HT are taking to long to be effective when needing then address that, and maybe look at the cost of that tech path, because I always think that balance is sometimes more about the timing then the strength of the units. The HT is very strong, very underused, and I also know that was the case in SC very early but as people got better with their storm play it was amazing to see how much could be held off with some photons and some HT. Perhaps it needs to be available earlier and cheaper to get there. ------Above is original quote, below was spliced together with it to appear as a full quote--- You also completely ignore photon cannons as a tool to harass which might be one of the best harass tool in the game now especially vs. zerg. No way a toss can harass? Give me a break, my ramp patrolling drone says otherwise. Darkstar_X United States. November 04 2010 04:54. Posts 106 PM Profile Quote # In SC2, average DPS is higher than in BW; however, Storm DPS was cut in half. Just because it was effective in one game does not make it good in another. Roaches destroy cannoned ramps with 4 range, a fact you would know if you actually knew what you were talking about. Currently pros have been using robo-centric play, probably because it is the most viable, not because they hadn't thought to use other options. As to the OP, I think it's a combination of current top Toss under performing a little and less harassment options. First off, please don't take what I wrote, which was 2 separate comments addressing 2 separate quotes and splice them together and then use the quote tags on them and make it seem like that is what I said. That is intentionally misquoting me and trying to prove your point and making it seem like I said something I did not. I have no idea why you put those 2 quotes together, one in which I was simply saying perhaps HT tech should be cheaper, and the other where a player was saying toss had no way to harass and never brought up cannons. Second, I never said that in SC2 you should use cannons and templars the same way they were used in SC1. I simply said at the start of SC1 templars were rarely used, and then as the game progressed it was amazing to see what could be held off with a few cannons and templars, merely noting the progression of the game. I then simply said I think they are still a strong unit but underused currently and perhaps the cost is what needs to be looked at, which your quote rather helps prove my point that if it was a bit cheaper to either attain that tech path, or make that unit it would make it a more viable unit to use earlier in games. If the unit is useful late in games, it means it would be useful earlier in games as well but currently not cost effective. Again, that is why I said maybe the cost of the unit needs to be looked at, not necessarily the strength. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
On November 04 2010 02:32 superstartran wrote: Um, it's really only a matter of time until P gets phased out. There has been nothing new or innovative by P players since 1 Gate FE because anything that is any decent that is non-robo (VR timing attack) gets nerf batted down. I saw some interesting warp prism drop play on scrap station once. It was on semi-pro level. On November 04 2010 02:32 superstartran wrote: Not to mention P is so inflexible until late game because all their harassment options cost way too much early on. Warp Prisms are all-innish/gimmicky, and Blink Stalker / Obs play is really easy to counter. Not to mention you have to get Robo/Citadel and Blink Upgrade to do it anyways. I also saw a blinking stalker, warp prism, observer play on delta quadrant. It was quite versatile and he harassed the hell out of me (Zerg). | ||
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Proximo
38 Posts
In all honesty Toss units generally suck for versatility, are not cost efficient, have terrrrrrible AA options, negligible air (stargate lol), are too specialized, get roflpwned and hard countered by any decent Zerg of Terran player. Moreover, toss really have only one viable tech option and are forced into a robo - gateway tech every game which makes it simple to counter. Given that tech switches are nearly impossible as Toss it's gg if the opponent scouts well, which every good opponent will, and forces lots of Toss into "cute" strategies simply to try and get some momentum instead of reacting every game. Momentum is a big part of any RTS and especially SC2. In the current state of the game Toss rarely if ever have the momentum due to limited harass options (read: none) and pigeon-holed tech options, which forces Toss to play a reactionary game making it extremely difficult to win consistently at the higher levels. The problem however, going back to my first point, is that by balancing Toss at the upper levels you would maybe unbalance the lower leagues where Toss are doing okay ( changing though as players are improving). The only solution that would address low and high level balance would be to have unit abilities and tech unlocked by league. So for example, looking at the old void rays, you wouldn't be able to get your 3rd level of charge unlocked until you're in Diamond that way guys in Bronze who QQ'd about voids wouldn't get cheesed . Another example, you could keep the Khaydarin Amulet and Psi Storm tech the same in Bronze and Silver but speed it up in gold or plat. Basically, with way the game is currently built it's impossible to balance Toss both in low levels and higher level IMO. However, as the game progresses and players get better I predict Toss will begin to have a lot of trouble in the lower leagues as well due to all the recent nerfs and Zerg Terran players getting better. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I imagine it's the same for queen/roach or marauder+medivac | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
On November 04 2010 07:02 toadstool wrote: The fact is that 2 former Protoss players Clare and IntoTheRainbow are doing REALLY well, while Sangho and IrOn who are currently better Protoss players in sc:bw failed miserably. So the options are: *changing your race to Terran magically makes you a better player, and you make fewer mistakes and get further in tournaments. Magically. *there is imbalance in PvT in the higher levels And MVP doesn't exist? This is such a stupid argument anyway, Zergbong's in the semis and he never did anything in BW. You're making a whole bunch of assumptions with no real basis. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
If they dropped the cost of TC to 100/50, Dark Shrine to 50/100 and the cost of a DT to 100/100 with a 42seconds build time (Same as sentry) then DT's would operate the same way Banshees do. Don't get my wrong, DT's are "viable", but in the same vain, Banshees were "viable" when Cloak tech use to be a fusion core upgrade, and Ultralisks were "viable" when they were considered sub par. DT's and Banshees play such a similar role but one does its role significantly better than the other, going DT's, if you are attacked during anytime then you straight up lose, there is no bunker you can put down nor any SVC's to repair your wall, you just lose, but that doesn't happen to Terran if they go Banshees, the unit fits so well with the army, I just can't fathome why they can't make DT's as viable as Banshees, they have so much potential, but are left to rot due to excessive tech costs | ||
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Boonesbane
United States170 Posts
On November 02 2010 03:12 Pfhor wrote: Players aren't good enough. But even that's too broad and general. Watch the matches and find each individual reason that every Protoss has been knocked out. Those are your answers, and there's no reason to simplify it. This is pretty much the best answer you're gonna get. At the end of the day the players skill and performance in specific matches is orders of magnitude more important than race. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:07 Boonesbane wrote: This is pretty much the best answer you're gonna get. At the end of the day the players skill and performance in specific matches is orders of magnitude more important than race. You could say the same thing about Zerg in the previous season. The entire "Zerg aren't using Nydus worm", "There just aren't any good zergs", but regardless of the favored win % in Blizzard statistics and a zerg player winning the GSL, they were buffed becuse the race it self had problems. Protoss players preforming poorly is obviously going to be the over bearing factor, but that doesn't mean there are problems with the race that are working against them. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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robertdinh
803 Posts
When zergs were considered underpowered to zealot pushes and reaper harass, people were saying "zerg players just need to learn how to play" and zerg players were saying "NO we REALLY are underpowered". Now zerg got their buffs + indirect buffs through nerfs to other races and things are peachy. Now protoss, which has clearly done awful at the GSLs and has been in decline since the zealot nerf in general, are saying that they need help, and zerg and terrans are saying "protoss players just need to learn how to play". Sangho and Tester have both proven they are pretty good players, but 1 missed force field or the fact that toss can not tech swap easily and has to play like a psychic because scouting before robo is difficult + being forced into robo even if you just want it for scouting purposes, has prevented them from really using their abilities to their full potential. Think about all the viable army compositions for each race, then think about the fact that toss is glued to gateway units as the main portion of their army, now think about the cost of gateway units relative to their effectiveness. Yes a 200/200 fully upgraded toss army is pretty scary, but realistically the game won't get there if a toss is playing vs a solid terran or zerg. Whereas every game has an early game and an early mid-game. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
This is just the protoss thread. | ||
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IIDynamicII
14 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:07 Boonesbane wrote: This is pretty much the best answer you're gonna get. At the end of the day the players skill and performance in specific matches is orders of magnitude more important than race. Thats an astonishing logic lol  When i give you a "frying pan" and i take a real "tennis racket" and we are both near same skill lvl who has the bigger chance to win a game ? ( dont get me wrong i dont saying Protoss is a frying pan) If Terrans for exampel have bigger potential, you will have more success even when you make faults compared to another race that dont forgive. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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velo
Australia48 Posts
Personally I feel like Protoss is kind of under-explored in terms of strategy (pretty sure someone was saying this in a cast recently). + Show Spoiler + I was really disapointed to see NeXGenius out of GSL2 he was actually my pick to win it. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
protoss has suppy effective units , the other races has the cost effective units. This is just a random statement without proof. Please provide some information about ur statement because I am very curious how you arrived at that conclusion. | ||
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