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On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend...
but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting.
edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others.
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On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others.
You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is.
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On November 03 2010 23:55 lowercase wrote:
I will say this, I am against a nerf to banshees, they are a good, well-rounded unit. I just wish Protoss had similar options. Mutas for zerg are even BETTER than Banshees, as workhorse units that are useful all game.
Anyway, another point, this time about chrono boost:
Key to Protoss difficulties is chronoboost, which is supposed to be an advantageous mechanic. I disagree. In order to keep up with MULEs and spawn-larvae droning, Protoss must constantly be boosting probes for econ. Now while I'm not complaining about the difficulty of doing this, I suggest that BECAUSE of chronoboost, Protoss upgrades take a long time to research, because they ASSUME you will chronoboost them out. Frankly, without boosting them out Protoss is at a terrible disadvantage.
Charge: 140s
Stimpack: 140s (about the same, except stim is acquired so early due to it being a tech lab research)
Blink: 110s
Concussive: 60s
Thermal lance: 140s
Banshee cloak: 120s
Psionic storm: 110s
Siege mode: 80s
(Don't forget many of these terran abilities can be researched simultaneously due to having a bunch of tech labs. Twilight council upgrades must be researched sequentially.)
Therefore, while boost is supposed to help Protoss bring out tech earlier, it actually is required for them to bring tech out at a normal speed. The necessity of boosting probes to keep up with econ requires that it be used frequently, and for this it has a casting cost of only 25. Since this would give toss an enormous advantage if research took Terran/Zerg times to build, toss research times are accordingly higher, such that their boosted research time is equivalent to regular research times. Therefore, boosting is actually a disadvantageous mechanic, as it is assumed for balance reasons that at all times things are being boosted!
Allow me to reiterate: "Therefore, boosting is actually a disadvantageous mechanic, as it is assumed for balance reasons that at all times things are being boosted!"
Excellent analysis. Several nerfs of Protoss were due to (at least partially) chronoboosting the "exact right thing" at the right time. All-in early zealots (see Tester). Voidrays vs T. Immortal pushes off one base. So you are surely correct... Blizzard has to assume probes, proxied units, powerful units, upgrades, etc. are always being boosted b/c there probably was/is some timing attack or out of control economy situation that happened.
Warp-in is the other thing that kept killing Protoss. Immortals got moved to the Robo b/c of it. Dark templar got a new building, more gas costs, and slower to come into play. HT's storm is about to get nerfed b/c of warp-in.
While I'm thinking of it, a wishlist for the next expansion:
1. Warp-out via Nexus (not mothership). In other words, you warp-into an enemy base with Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries... then when defense comes you warp-out back to home Nexus. That would allow the more expensive Protoss units a less costly/all-in/risky harass option early on. Would allow them to put some of their units back in their army (a la Banshee). Could also help vs Marauder conc shells if you meet them in the middle of the map early on. Hell, put it as an option on probes too. That way protoss have a way to save part of an expansion like Terran (float) and Zerg (burrow) do.
2. Possible way to fix protoss's problematic expensive/non-flexible tech problems without changing them much. Warp-exit which would refund unit or building cost.
Went dark templar rush and was completely countered and lost half of them? Insta-lose? No problem, warp-exit all the dark temps you have left and the dark shrine.
Went immortal vs a 2 port banshee/marine build? Warp-exit the immortals. Now you have gas for an observer and a stargate.
Now you can have a small hope of coming back with a new tech... just will take 2 minutes to get, but better than nothing.
Think of it as the answer to Zerg's auto-tech switch or Terran's units which are fair to good vs most all other units.
3. Bring back the shield battery. And if Protoss are forced to be the defensive race, allow the shield battery to recharge energy as well. This would help vs. Terran 3 brrx early aggression (more forcefields), banshees (recharge stalkers), all-in roach or baneling (more forcefields) and will allow options on the HT once they nerf Amulet (which we all smell coming). Would also solve the problem of "if I had just built one more sentry instead of getting that useless fast observer when all he did was all-in".
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On November 04 2010 12:22 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others. You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is.
That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-;
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United States22883 Posts
On November 04 2010 13:27 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 12:22 Baarn wrote:On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others. You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is. That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-;
How about infusing a hatchery instead of injecting? Or pressing ESC when FEing? Every race can trip up on minor issues, the best Ps have just been tripping over themselves during their big matches. Most of the time, there's a correct decision available and they're simply not taking it.
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On November 04 2010 13:27 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 12:22 Baarn wrote:On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others. You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is. That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-;
In SC2, if your stim isn't perfect vs a good opponent, you're at a pretty severe disadvantage. Likewise, if your larva inject isn't perfect vs a good opponent, you're at a pretty severe disadvantage.
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On November 04 2010 13:27 Ryuu314 wrote:
That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-;
No other also has the ability to create perfect (at least early on) barrier at the base of their ramp either.
It's sort of like how Zerg can either make all units or all drones if they, but they often end up in spots where the zerg player either made too many drones and dies, or ends up with too few drones and gets ground down by superior econ. But if the zerg player can strike the right balance with good drone timing, then he benefits from the ability.
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pretty severe disadvantage != total loss .... and really u arent in a severe disadvantage but rather at a disadvantage. You can see in alot of games when poor stims or forgeting a larva injection still lead the player to victory. But a bad FF will lose you the game, you cant compare. But this isnt as bad thing as not being able to harass with the confidence zerg or terran has with bunkers/insta army. That and the forced robo is the real problems.
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On November 02 2010 03:46 Fym wrote:
I think that a new selection of maps would be nice to help everyone get a second opinion if any race is underpowered or overpowered. I think only regular seasons with different maps in each season and the statistics following it would help.
Smartest guy in the thread.
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On November 04 2010 13:43 Jibba wrote:
How about infusing a hatchery instead of injecting? Or pressing ESC when FEing? Every race can trip up on minor issues, the best Ps have just been tripping over themselves during their big matches. Most of the time, there's a correct decision available and they're simply not taking it.
Worst case scenario is if the game/network only SLIGHTLY lags and you press "X-S-D" to make drones only it didn't register the X or the click and your entire army/drones stop and stand there like idiots.
God do I hate when that happens.
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I think it would be nice if they made a unit that followed the same tech path as the Dark Archon in BW. A unit idea I was thinking about would be a unit made from 2 DTs
the unit would have very low health around 25 but would start with something like 225/300 energy. The energy could be used to turn into health but would tick down making the timing of this ability key.
Just having fun with thinking about it not sure it would really work.
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On November 04 2010 13:27 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 12:22 Baarn wrote:On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others. You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is. That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-;
Well that's one of protoss weaknesses at the moment that can be exploited. If sentries were cheaper in gas by even 50 this would no longer be a problem. You'd always have enough to block your ramp without worrying.
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On November 04 2010 14:15 Baarn wrote:
Well that's one of protoss weaknesses at the moment that can be exploited. If sentries were cheaper in gas by even 50 this would no longer be a problem. You'd always have enough to block your ramp without worrying.
All you guys talk about is sentries being used defensively.
You have the most cost-effective units in the game for chrissakes. Use sentries OFFENSIVELY. For instance, 4 sentries & a few zealots vs a bunkering terran = GG.
One guardian shield and a few forcefield behind his wall will prevent him from attacking you, giving you ample time to trash whatever building he used to wall and have a free-for-all killfest a few seconds later. Haven't seen many people use that ? Why ? It's almost a sure-fire way of winning even against a competent opponent since they can't do jack to prevent you from doing it.
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I have some off-topic question.
I find Immortals very unpopular in the ladder, especially in team games. But however, when someone builds those, they do pretty good due to survivability. I think people don't build them often because of hotkey 'I'. Its pretty far in the keyboard. Better to spam Z or S, or just push C when there is intense battle somewhere.
So far, I find this the only inconvenient hotkey, why did they put it that far?
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How about infusing a hatchery instead of injecting? Or pressing ESC when FEing? Every race can trip up on minor issues, the best Ps have just been tripping over themselves during their big matches. Most of the time, there's a correct decision available and they're simply not taking it.
If protoss misses a FF, it's gg. infusing instead of injecting and esc when FEing may set you into a big disadvantage but it is not instant-gg by no mean.
All you guys talk about is sentries being used defensively.
You have the most cost-effective units in the game for chrissakes. Use sentries OFFENSIVELY. For instance, 4 sentries & a few zealots vs a bunkering terran = GG.
One guardian shield and a few forcefield behind his wall will prevent him from attacking you, giving you ample time to trash whatever building he used to wall and have a free-for-all killfest a few seconds later. Haven't seen many people use that ? Why ? It's almost a sure-fire way of winning even against a competent opponent since they can't do jack to prevent you from doing it
You should teach pros how to do that so they don't lose in GSL. On a serious note, a small force of marine/ marauder will decimate your 4 sentries + few zealot army if you move out with it. Unless you are 4-gating, it is extremely hard to move out against a competent terran.
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On November 04 2010 13:43 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 13:27 Ryuu314 wrote:On November 04 2010 12:22 Baarn wrote:On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others. You get punished if you miss force fields on ramps. Doesn't matter what your previous background in gaming is. That's true, but doesn't that kind of goes to show how delicate Protoss's early game is? No other race in BW or SC2 has such a thin line to tread in their matchups. A single misplaced spellcast, not even a build order loss, will cost you the entire game -.-; How about infusing a hatchery instead of injecting? Or pressing ESC when FEing? Every race can trip up on minor issues, the best Ps have just been tripping over themselves during their big matches. Most of the time, there's a correct decision available and they're simply not taking it.
You don't outright lose the game if you mis-stim or miss an injection. Protoss outright loses if their FF is half a second late or improperly placed. There's a big difference. You can theoretically make up a mis-stim or miss an injection through different mechanisms (eg retreating in the case of a mis-stim, make more hatches for more macro).
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On November 04 2010 14:25 bokeevboke wrote:
I have some off-topic question.
I find Immortals very unpopular in the ladder, especially in team games. But however, when someone builds those, they do pretty good due to survivability. I think people don't build them often because of hotkey 'I'. Its pretty far in the keyboard. Better to spam Z or S, or just push C when there is intense battle somewhere.
So far, I find this the only inconvenient hotkey, why did they put it that far?
Depends on the situation I'd say. These days with the number of zergs going muta/ling and the insane amount of terrans not capable of doing jack aside from bio bio bio, colossus is your best bet.
Besides you can often save your colossus while an immortal is pretty much dead should you decide to retreat it.
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On November 03 2010 23:55 lowercase wrote:
Anyway, another point, this time about chrono boost:
Key to Protoss difficulties is chronoboost, which is supposed to be an advantageous mechanic. I disagree. In order to keep up with MULEs and spawn-larvae droning, Protoss must constantly be boosting probes for econ. Now while I'm not complaining about the difficulty of doing this, I suggest that BECAUSE of chronoboost, Protoss upgrades take a long time to research, because they ASSUME you will chronoboost them out. Frankly, without boosting them out Protoss is at a terrible disadvantage.
Charge: 140s
Stimpack: 140s (about the same, except stim is acquired so early due to it being a tech lab research)
Blink: 110s
Concussive: 60s
Thermal lance: 140s
Banshee cloak: 120s
Psionic storm: 110s
Siege mode: 80s
(Don't forget many of these terran abilities can be researched simultaneously due to having a bunch of tech labs. Twilight council upgrades must be researched sequentially.)
Therefore, while boost is supposed to help Protoss bring out tech earlier, it actually is required for them to bring tech out at a normal speed. The necessity of boosting probes to keep up with econ requires that it be used frequently, and for this it has a casting cost of only 25. Since this would give toss an enormous advantage if research took Terran/Zerg times to build, toss research times are accordingly higher, such that their boosted research time is equivalent to regular research times. Therefore, boosting is actually a disadvantageous mechanic, as it is assumed for balance reasons that at all times things are being boosted!
Agree with this 110%.
Chronoboosting is supposed to be a race-specific mechanic for protoss that gives them an advantage that other races don't have. Like Mules, like larvae inject.
But NOW, with all the time nerfs and tech-time nerfs, it's the race-specific mechanic protoss NEED to use in order to play catchup!
I just don't understand you Blizzard... I really don't...
P.S - Has anyone else started trying to transition out to other races like Terran or Zerg? I started today - to terran! =D
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On November 04 2010 08:57 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +protoss has suppy effective units , the other races has the cost effective units. This is just a random statement without proof. Please provide some information about ur statement because I am very curious how you arrived at that conclusion.
just go through the units cost/supply wise
(resourcecost per supply) of units you are actually building multiple of
stalker is close to 90, HT 100, voidray 133, carrier with interceptor 116,6, DT 125, immortal 100, zealot 50, sentry 75, phoenix 125
marine 50, marauder 62,5, banshee 83, viking 112,5, tank 90, helion 50
zergling 50, roach 50, hydra 75, muta 100, corruptor 125
ultra/broodlord/thor/bc/collossi all 83,3
thats actually the reason why 200 supply P wins, because the armyvalue is significant higher
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On November 04 2010 12:09 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 11:03 dragonblade369 wrote:That was a reply for a post I read about Protoss having no *real* SC legends or champions playing for them.
If ITR or Clare kept playing Protoss in SC2, they wouldn't have gotten to ro4. you know that clare is a B-teamer while Sang-Ho is an A-teamer right? Funny to see you call him an SC legend... but that just proves the point further.. if a B-teamer switches to terran and can make top 4, while an A-teamer stays with Protoss and can barely make what... top 16 was it?? Thats pretty uh. interesting. edit: Not to mention Sang-ho is a RECENT A-teamer.. not years ago like the others.
I was referring to an earlier post saying that Protoss in SC2 sucked because the top Protoss pros weren't good and that Terrans had the best Pros because it was full of legends and champions.
The only SC legends right now in sc2 are Nada and Boxer.
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