EPTWhat about the factor of drone sacrifice, and the consequence of having to share the larvae with all warrior INCLUDING the drone, and INCLUDING the overlord?
Have you considered that?
The problem with Zerg control - Page 2
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
What about the factor of drone sacrifice, and the consequence of having to share the larvae with all warrior INCLUDING the drone, and INCLUDING the overlord? Have you considered that? | ||
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Antiochus
Canada548 Posts
Edit: Managing larva is what makes playing Zerg interesting as it can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how good you are. Edit2:spelling/grammer  | ||
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Kappuru
United States14 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:21 AtlasMech wrote: It's interesting how people act like terran and protoss didn't recieve buffs as well. Crono boost, mule, reactor.... What use is more larvae, if there is a root problem with control balance? Because you're missing the entire point of the Zerg race. They can produce any unit from the hatchery, allowing tech switches and massive production of one unit with critical mass. Protoss/Terran need to build 5-6 barracks / warpgates. Honestly, you're acting like you have some deep understanding of the game but this is just (really) bad theorycrafting. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
Not at all, you are distorting my argument. Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game. The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord. But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:23 AtlasMech wrote: Interesting; and here I was thinking about hatch-over-queen strats that sacrifice the spawning pool in offense, just so you can barely use it to start a lair, and then forget about it. I'm not saying it just for the sake of argument. Simply noting that spawning pool in some tech-strats could go unused after the first few minutes.When it comes to complaints about zerg from the public, I keep running in to the same thing time and time again. Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack and gateway then their other offensive unit producers? I appreciate the suggestions here, but also think this would make the races more similar than they are now. Instead, I would prefer them to be more different. For example, the Protoss food structures / units could be very different from the other 2 races, that would be nice. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
control, health recovery etc. etc. If the pool was worth 8 food, zerg would never make more just for more food... they would still make overlord. It still keeps the races unique, and it is only for that 1 time that zerg make the pool, unless there was some other incentive to make it for another reason. It makes the pool more unique, as it isn't really thought of as being related to the factor of supply. I gave my idea in the OP that the pool may be used to saturate the creep with the acidic bio fluid for the sacrifice of 8 food, for a period of time while the pool refills. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:38 AtlasMech wrote: To antiochus: Not at all, you are distorting my argument. Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game. The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord. But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role. Why does the spawning pool need to fit a unique role? You are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Zerg is Zerg, they are not Terran, they are not Protoss. Every race works slightly differently, and thus they have slightly different mechanics. Also from a balance viewpoint, the ability to get a pool instead of your first overlord would distort the balance of the game. With the ability to skip your first overlord you will be able to expand that much faster, or tech that much faster. The difference would be small (around 20 in game seconds) but 20 seconds can easily change the entire flow of the game. Maybe if you can get that first expansion up 20 second earlier, you would be able to fit a 2nd expo in much quicker, and since you've already made a pool you can also defend it. Introducing this mechanic would require entire re balancing of the game, because it effects the very early game in a large way, creating a massive butterfly effect that would ripple out until the latest stages of the game. | ||
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Antiochus
Canada548 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:38 AtlasMech wrote: To antiochus: Not at all, you are distorting my argument. Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game. The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord. But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role. Saying your arguement still stands and is strong only works if you have a coherent arguement to begin with. Maybe it all makes sense in your head but I reccomend you organize it better in the future before posting. | ||
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:00 Antiochus wrote: Saying your arguement still stands and is strong only works if you have a coherent arguement to begin with. Maybe it all makes sense in your head but I reccomend you organize it better in the future before posting. I agree. I actually am quite sad that the OP wasted all this time on this arguement and didn't try to argue about balance or something using the various amounts of resources on Teamliquid and the internet. Why the hell would you make a thread which is just a wall of text that says the same thing over again. Really? If this is a troll, it's not even funny. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
To Najda: This goes back to the issue of whether zerg expanding first was standard or not. All it would mean is that standard zerg would be pool, hatch(expo) then lord. You could actually do this b.o. in the old game in order to be aggressive and ensure position, but obviously the economic consequence to this is overbearing. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:38 Flicky wrote: First hatch gives 2, additional hatches give 1. That's wrong... all hatches give two. If you 14 hatch and your second hatch finishes before you're ovie because you forgot to build it, you end up with 20 supply. 2 + 2 + 8 + 8. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
-Should the spawning pool be worth anywhere from 8-16 supply, considering it is a 200 mineral structure? -If it does provide atleast 8 control naturally, should an option to expand pool capacity be provided at no cost or 100 mineral cost? Should the pool have an unlimited amount of capacity depending on how many times the capacity expansion upgrade has been researched? If the pool was destroyed, would all food at that pool be lost? -If the pool has this option to increase its control capacity, how much total capacity should it be able to hold? As a final note before explaining my case, there needs to be some incentive to make more then 1 pool. If the pool yields 8 control however, this is not enough incentive to make more then 1, on the other hand if it yields 16 supply, this would almost seem like too much, however if it was worth 16 supply it would make things a lot simpler. are you fucking retarded or just high? thats the same thing as saying "hurpderp, lets give 8-16 supply to the cybernetics core!!@1@!!1" the pool allows for a certain unit to be built. just like the cyber core, robo bay, templar archives, reactor, and etc allows for certain units to be built. if those buildings die then those units naturally cannot be built from it. its the same concept with spawning pool. the only difference is that units come from LARVA instead of factories/gateways/factories/etc | ||
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TheAlba
Canada7 Posts
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
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TLOBrian
United States453 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:08 figq wrote: This could be in a UMS map to try it out. I still don't see what's wrong with the Zerg food as it is. The title says there is a problem with that - and I can't locate it. Agreed. Theres so many different problems with Zerg I don't know why he friggin thought "LETS GIVE SUPPLY TO THE SPAWNING POOL." Was a good idea. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
If we could just focus on and discuss and debate the points instead of simply posting to accuse someone of trolling, or calling people names, then maybe we would actually make progress in our understanding. To the last response: Yes, this video was pretty interesting... | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
huh, never noticed the slightest. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
And for the record, that is not my video, and don't even know the guy. | ||
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