It seems my paper is going to be too long, so I will link in to another site when I can.
The following write is a work in progress so forgive me if it is disorganized and poorly expressed. I do not believe a concept like this has even been considered or even discussed yet for zerg.
If you are just going to argue with the paper for the sake of arguing, please control yourself from replying. I would appreciate well thought out and highly detailed counter arguments that are actually logical. Thanks.
The spawning pool is truly the most mysterious building in the game. When it comes to complaints about zerg from the public, I keep running in to the same thing time and time again.
Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack and gateway then their other offensive unit producers?
What would be an incentive for making more then one spawning pool?
The following is a list of questions to consider before reading about my theory that the spawning pool was suppose to be worth ATLEAST 8 control/supply, if not more. Zerg start out with an overlord, but the hatchery is only worth 1 food, even though it is 2 food in starcraft 2, the issue is still going to effect zerg's food down the road, and even to some degree towards the beginning when compared to terrans 10 supply cc and protoss' 9 supply nexus. Because the zerg have the queen now this means zerg produce less hatcheries in the first place.
If the pool was worth 8 control, it solves some controversial issues. Zerg typically make 1 pool, and so this, even though it occurs at an early point in the game and has a significant impact down the road, it isn't like additional control was given to the hatchery.
It also solves the controversial of whether zerg was suppose to be an agressive race or a macro defending race. The truth is that they were suppose to be BOTH. If the pool was worth 8 food, then zerg would make pool then hatchery, and then get overlord, this helps to ensure that the opponent is not getting mineral position too early, and that zerg is getting natural expansion position early enough.
Anyways, here are the questions.
-Should the spawning pool be worth anywhere from 8-16 supply, considering it is a 200 mineral structure?
-If it does provide atleast 8 control naturally, should an option to expand pool capacity be provided at no cost or 100 mineral cost? Should the pool have an unlimited amount of capacity depending on how many times the capacity expansion upgrade has been researched? If the pool was destroyed, would all food at that pool be lost?
-If the pool has this option to increase its control capacity, how much total capacity should it be able to hold?
As a final note before explaining my case, there needs to be some incentive to make more then 1 pool. If the pool yields 8 control however, this is not enough incentive to make more then 1, on the other hand if it yields 16 supply, this would almost seem like too much, however if it was worth 16 supply it would make things a lot simpler.
There may have to be another reason for making an additional pool besides 8 control... This might sound interesting, even though it is kind of a rip off of the alien concept from the movie alien. The pool could be thought of as the bio fluid for their units which explains the control, but perhaps that fluid is like a toxic poison or acid. So imagine that the spawning pool has its own creep radius, and then has the ability to allow the creep around it to soak up all that green poisonous fluid, or acid. The enemy units on that creep would have a sort of plagued status. Which might be an interesting way to bring back the concept of plague.
What would be the cost of secreting the toxin? Well, thinking logically, perhaps the 8 food would be lost or sacrificed for a period of time until the pool fills back up. This would be interesting since sacrifice is one of the key themes of zerg.
The ultimate question would be, "is this enough incentive to make another pool?"
I'm really having a hard time coming up with an idea to give enough incentive to produce another pool with out making it worth 16 food... but 16 additional food at an early point in the game would clearly be too much.
The other reason why it would seem necessary to have pool be worth control is because of the overlord's insignificant purpose/value. A couple can be used as scouts and they can be used to perform mass drops, but other then that, zerg is just putting all their control in one basket by having a load of overlords sitting in their base. One might argue that terran and protoss have a load of pylons and supply depots sitting around, but those have their choke point value, and the overlord is indeed considered more of a unit then a building...
The famous saying goes, "do not make units unless you are going to use them." It's not don't make buildings unless you are going to use them... Many overlords suggests a mass drop, for what other reason is there to so many? To scout? LOL? This almost forces zerg to conduct a mass drop. Sure, the carrying capacity applying to all overlords would seem powerful, but being forced to mass drop when all of those overlords are your supply? That is absolutely rediculous in many ways. It is also a controversial issue of whether carrying capacity and overlord speed should be one and the same research.
Going back to the spawning pool...
I'm only asking that the pool be worth atleast 8 control, but it may need to yield as much as 16 control if it costs 200 minerals, but there should be a way around that problem.
But I will be discussing in the following paper, why the spawning pool was suppose to yield atleast 8 control.
I need to find a way to get the rest of the paper out there so the big picture here can be seen. I hope I have enough room.
Argument #1. But 3 overlords and 2 hatch = 26 food (800 minerals)
My response: But what is the purpose of getting overlord 3 when you could just get another hatch? That 3rd hatch is more important then food at that point, UNLESS you are suggesting that the overlord was suppose to provide economic support. Overlord having an economic role? That goes back to the idea of overlord building on and extracting additional gas or minerals.. I presented a possible idea for this on the starcraft2.org forums, but even I admit that it is pretty rediculous.
Or blizzard, are you suggesting that the pool should have more of a role then just unlocking the zergling, and zergling speed?
But lets balance this back out by giving toss and terran 1 more supply depot or pylon and factor in the pool, barrack, and gateway. If you examine those values it goes back to being imbalanced for zerg. But lets say that the pool was worth 8 food. Here is an interesting presentation of data to show how it would be balanced.
Remember, zerg naturally start out with an overlord. But the above data shows just how balanced it would be if the pool was worth 8 food.
Argument #2: But 3 hatch pool is able to produce so much more offense than 2 command center, barrack.
My response: But how can zerg make that offense with out the food? at that point zerg still would only have 2 lords which means a 3rd lord is needed to even be able to take advantage of 3 hatch ling. If a wave of offense from 3 hatch has to be utilized and it fails, zerg's economy is down the drain.
Truly, this proves that zerg is a race that is FORCED is to a greater degree of agression then terran or protoss. With terran having a higher degree of dealing with that agression, repairing a bunker. It just practically gauruntees zerg's demise.
We have been debating the role of the pool on another forum. It doesn't naturally open up production like the gateway or the barrack. People say on the other hand that it is a tech building, that it unlocks the zergling and queen. When you compare it to the cyber core, the cybernetics core upgrades protoss' air, and unlocks 2 additional units, the stalker is simply a higher level unit then a ling is, especially when micro is used.
So should the pool upgrade zerg air like the cybercore? If not then...
maybe it is more comparable to the academy because stimpacks and marine range are ability upgrades like ling speed and adrenal gland.
In what way does having stimpack be at tier 1 compare to the zergling attack upgrade which occurs at tier 3.
I'm finding that in starcraft, that there isn't a very good back and forth battle between raw army going up the tech tree. it seems like they focused all the back and forth element in to the gas units. This also seems to be, to some degree part of the issue.
The pool doesn't naturally enhance production like the barrack and the gateway. It doesn't upgrade units like the cybercore, and it doesn't allow for adrenal gland on tier 1 which is comparable to stim packs, until tier 3.
But people don't want it to be able to do any of those things because it would buff zerg too much, and because it wouldn't be unique enough.
The pool yielding 8 food is actually the perfect and logical answer in my opinion.
Interestingly enough, it even makes sense in its concept. A pool which holds gentic bio fluid in the same way a depot holds supply, enhancing the capacity for which bio can be produced.
Argument # 3: But the overlord can be used as a scout.
My response: Does that really make up for 8 food lost? Maybe if the overlord was naturally cloaked... But I don't even think blizzard could explain that ridiculous of a concept.
Argument # 4:
"But this would make the pool rush more effective"
Mid to late game if your doing a drop overlords should be expendable if they are not you fucked up the early game, also the ability to spew creep, drop queens and drones is highly under valued creep tumors are awesome in the opponents base. I thought about the values of things before and I feel its a slippery slope as balance for each race is based on more then value as a nexus cannot make carriers and command centers cannot make battlecruisers. The incentive to make another pool DOES exist and it's in the late game when your opponent targets key tech structures. In case I pool my pool I'll make a new one on the island in lost temple. Plus this reduces drop surface area. This is something I feel pro and casual players both don't do enough.
Expect major new Zerg mechanics in HOTS but until then tweaks.
I really feel like people are simply responding for the sake of arguing. I was hoping that people would actually acknowledge the points being made and give them fair consideration. But so far they are not. Lets try to keep the eye on the ball, or not.
We either give the ideas some potential, or we don't. If not, then don't respond so we can keep it clean and orderly.
But I will say, we may have to admit that there has been quite a serious and significant problem with zerg all along.
Can you explain to me why buildings are being counted towards the food count? Are you talking about the yield of larva? Sorry if this sounds noobish but I've just never thought of this logic and id like to know further.
On September 17 2010 00:43 AtlasMech wrote: Or blizzard, are you suggesting that the pool should have more of a role then just unlocking the zergling, and zergling speed?
On September 17 2010 00:54 AtlasMech wrote: I really feel like people are simply responding for the sake of arguing. I was hoping that people would actually acknowledge the points being made and give them fair consideration. But so far they are not. Lets try to keep the eye on the ball, or not.
We either give the ideas some potential, or we don't. If not, then don't respond so we can keep it clean and orderly.
But I will say, we may have to admit that there has been quite a serious and significant problem with zerg all along.
Posting a big OP (and a huge appendixy type thing as well), then dictating exactly how discussion should take place, in your first 3 posts ever, is a good way to make people hate you.
Anyway, as for your massive (awful) suggestion....it's awful.
Overlords give food. Hatcheries give (minimal) food. Zerg is not Terran. Do not try to copy the Supply Depot. Additionally, your point about mineral costs and supply is dumb. Hatch + Queen + 4 Ovies + Pool = 1050, 34 food, and far better production than 1 Rax or 1 Gate. Why are you comparing costs the way you do?
Stimpack makes plenty of sense at tier 1 with Cracklings at tier 3, for a number of reasons: 1. It costs HP to use 2. It isn't permanent 3. Bio can't be healed until tier 3
All of your points are dumb, because you look at everything in a way that favors your arguments instead of objectively.
Pools granting 8 food is perfectly logical? Maybe in your brain. But this is the real world. Where it's dumb.
[edit] I was fine with this dumb stuff sticking to Strategy, because I never read that board, but when dumb stuff starts spilling over into normal boards, it makes me angry. Keep the dumb out.
To tofucake: I believe that you are quite simply overlooking a few things.
1. You can only fill the primary bases minerals with so many miners.
2. Your figures are incorrect, the queen costs 2 supply which means 32 food.
3. How could 4 overlord be that necessary for only 1 hatch that early?
4. The marine is a ranged unit, and I was not complaining that the adrenal gland was on tier 3, I was simply was using that fact to really question the role and function of the spawning pool. The comparable buildings to the spawning pool are the cybercore which upgrades units and unlocks an advanced unit, the stalker. But clearly the upgrading of units defines its role. There USED to be the academy, which was 200 minerals making it comparable to the pool, it unlocked the firebat AND the medic, but provided 2 upgrades to terran infantry right off the bat, so to speak. Is it not clear that the spawning pool is not quite fulfilling a particular role, what ever that role may be?
On September 17 2010 01:59 AtlasMech wrote: To tofucake: I believe that you are quite simply overlooking a few things.
1. You can only fill the primary bases minerals with so many miners.
2. Your figures are incorrect, the queen costs 2 supply which means 32 food.
3. How could 4 overlord be that necessary for only 1 hatch that early?
1. See #2
2. If we are using remaining food, not available food, then 32 on Zerg, minus 16 for Drones leaves 16 for army, where Protoss and Terran need to have 32 to saturate 2 bases, and are then left 4 and 2 food remaining for army, respectively. And the Zerg option is still cheaper. Stop mix-and-match'ing your arguments to win.
I do not understand the disrespect that is being allowed to go on here.
You were talking about 1 base, and now you are trying to make it seem like zerg have two bases, when they only have 1. If we are going to talk about 2 bases, then lets talk about 2 bases, if were are going to talk about 1 then lets talk about 1 and not try to mix it up in order to make it seem like you have a point.
I would appreciate that you stick to an argument and follow through on it.
This goes back to the data in the OP, are you going to ignore the data in the OP?
Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack and gateway then their other offensive unit producers?
Because this "flaw" is, in fact, a feature of the zerg race: a single building allows every single hatchery you've built to produce the unit(s) it's associated with, whereas protoss and terrans need to drop multiple warpgates/barracks/etc. to increase their production capacity. This makes the whole thing a non-issue, in my opinion.
What about the factor of drone sacrifice, and the consequence of having to share the larvae with all warrior INCLUDING the drone, and INCLUDING the overlord?
So against my better judgement I read both of your gigantic posts hoping that maybe it would seem less disjointed and make more sense if I read the whole thing. You wrote a massive wall of text where every other line is a new thought just to say tell us that you think Zerg supply should work just like Protoss and Terran supply. Please learn to condense your thoughts into a single paragraph next time.
Edit: Managing larva is what makes playing Zerg interesting as it can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on how good you are.
Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game.
The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord.
But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role.
On September 17 2010 00:23 AtlasMech wrote: When it comes to complaints about zerg from the public, I keep running in to the same thing time and time again.
Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack and gateway then their other offensive unit producers?
Interesting; and here I was thinking about hatch-over-queen strats that sacrifice the spawning pool in offense, just so you can barely use it to start a lair, and then forget about it. I'm not saying it just for the sake of argument. Simply noting that spawning pool in some tech-strats could go unused after the first few minutes.
I appreciate the suggestions here, but also think this would make the races more similar than they are now. Instead, I would prefer them to be more different. For example, the Protoss food structures / units could be very different from the other 2 races, that would be nice.
Remember figq all the races still deal with the same factors
control, health recovery etc. etc.
If the pool was worth 8 food, zerg would never make more just for more food... they would still make overlord.
It still keeps the races unique, and it is only for that 1 time that zerg make the pool, unless there was some other incentive to make it for another reason.
It makes the pool more unique, as it isn't really thought of as being related to the factor of supply.
I gave my idea in the OP that the pool may be used to saturate the creep with the acidic bio fluid for the sacrifice of 8 food, for a period of time while the pool refills.
On September 17 2010 02:38 AtlasMech wrote: To antiochus:
Not at all, you are distorting my argument.
Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game.
The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord.
But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role.
Why does the spawning pool need to fit a unique role? You are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Zerg is Zerg, they are not Terran, they are not Protoss. Every race works slightly differently, and thus they have slightly different mechanics.
Also from a balance viewpoint, the ability to get a pool instead of your first overlord would distort the balance of the game. With the ability to skip your first overlord you will be able to expand that much faster, or tech that much faster. The difference would be small (around 20 in game seconds) but 20 seconds can easily change the entire flow of the game. Maybe if you can get that first expansion up 20 second earlier, you would be able to fit a 2nd expo in much quicker, and since you've already made a pool you can also defend it. Introducing this mechanic would require entire re balancing of the game, because it effects the very early game in a large way, creating a massive butterfly effect that would ripple out until the latest stages of the game.
On September 17 2010 02:38 AtlasMech wrote: To antiochus:
Not at all, you are distorting my argument.
Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game.
The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord.
But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role.
Saying your arguement still stands and is strong only works if you have a coherent arguement to begin with. Maybe it all makes sense in your head but I reccomend you organize it better in the future before posting.
On September 17 2010 02:38 AtlasMech wrote: To antiochus:
Not at all, you are distorting my argument.
Blizzard has done a lot of role mixing between units and structures in order to better balance the game.
The spawning pool is not an overlord, and I totally agree with you that zerg should not be able to just make pools the whole game instead of the overlord.
But the point still stands and is strong that the pool should atleast be worth 8 food to balance the values, and second, to fulfill a unique enough role.
Saying your arguement still stands and is strong only works if you have a coherent arguement to begin with. Maybe it all makes sense in your head but I reccomend you organize it better in the future before posting.
I agree. I actually am quite sad that the OP wasted all this time on this arguement and didn't try to argue about balance or something using the various amounts of resources on Teamliquid and the internet. Why the hell would you make a thread which is just a wall of text that says the same thing over again. Really?
This goes back to the issue of whether zerg expanding first was standard or not.
All it would mean is that standard zerg would be pool, hatch(expo) then lord.
You could actually do this b.o. in the old game in order to be aggressive and ensure position, but obviously the economic consequence to this is overbearing.
On September 17 2010 00:35 Uranium wrote: Hatches give 2 food, OVs 8.
Also WTH the pool should not grant food.
First hatch gives 2, additional hatches give 1.
That's wrong... all hatches give two. If you 14 hatch and your second hatch finishes before you're ovie because you forgot to build it, you end up with 20 supply. 2 + 2 + 8 + 8.
-Should the spawning pool be worth anywhere from 8-16 supply, considering it is a 200 mineral structure?
-If it does provide atleast 8 control naturally, should an option to expand pool capacity be provided at no cost or 100 mineral cost? Should the pool have an unlimited amount of capacity depending on how many times the capacity expansion upgrade has been researched? If the pool was destroyed, would all food at that pool be lost?
-If the pool has this option to increase its control capacity, how much total capacity should it be able to hold?
As a final note before explaining my case, there needs to be some incentive to make more then 1 pool. If the pool yields 8 control however, this is not enough incentive to make more then 1, on the other hand if it yields 16 supply, this would almost seem like too much, however if it was worth 16 supply it would make things a lot simpler.
are you fucking retarded or just high?
thats the same thing as saying "hurpderp, lets give 8-16 supply to the cybernetics core!!@1@!!1"
the pool allows for a certain unit to be built. just like the cyber core, robo bay, templar archives, reactor, and etc allows for certain units to be built. if those buildings die then those units naturally cannot be built from it.
its the same concept with spawning pool. the only difference is that units come from LARVA instead of factories/gateways/factories/etc
I've always thought compared to the toss regen shields and terran medics that the zerg hp regen was pretty slow. Even though zerg has queens to transfuse units, you usually only have enough energy to heal one unit. So this topic might be a good place to bring it up since we're talking about the spawning pool and how you want people to make more of them. I was thinking maybe make the spawning pool kinda like the shield battery from sc1 except restores hp instead, or make it have a sort of passive AoE like an always on guardian shield around it that speeds up zerg units natural health regen when its near a pool
This could be in a UMS map to try it out. I still don't see what's wrong with the Zerg food as it is. The title says there is a problem with that - and I can't locate it.
On September 17 2010 03:08 figq wrote: This could be in a UMS map to try it out. I still don't see what's wrong with the Zerg food as it is. The title says there is a problem with that - and I can't locate it.
Agreed. Theres so many different problems with Zerg I don't know why he friggin thought "LETS GIVE SUPPLY TO THE SPAWNING POOL." Was a good idea.
I don't understand the continued insults against me, which still come with out consideration and debate over the raw data.
If we could just focus on and discuss and debate the points instead of simply posting to accuse someone of trolling, or calling people names, then maybe we would actually make progress in our understanding.
On September 17 2010 03:03 theSAiNT wrote: I (stupidly) read the whole post and have concluded that you are all being trolled.
I love threads like these. I’m personally hoping that it’s real just so that when I screw up in my day to day life I can reassuringly remember back to this and think at least I’m not that guy.
On September 17 2010 03:11 AtlasMech wrote: I don't understand the continued insults against me, which still come with out consideration and debate over the raw data.
If we could just focus on and discuss and debate the points instead of simply posting to accuse someone of trolling, or calling people names, then maybe we would actually make progress in our understanding.
giving them 16 supply would essentialy turn them into fucking supply depots. there would be no reason what so ever to make overlords other then drops....
with your idea it would be near impossible for any zerg to get supply blocked even if they tried.
there is no debates to discuss, there is no points to discuss. allowing spawning pools to give supply is just simply a retarded idea.
Oh man, if we could kill one building to disable all Marine production...
Of course, it's still a strange idea and poorly written. Why are you even thinking about supply when looking at hatcheries?
Edit: Two overlords, which are mobile, provide map vision, can creep, and cost two larva, would be much, much better than a spawning pool, which would cost 250 and one larva (for the drone) and can't go anywhere or do anything.
like I said before, it's not my belief that they should yield 16 supply either, especially since people would make pools instead of lords...
However, you still have the loss of the drone for the production of pools, and that is a consequence in and of itself.
Point stands as 8 control for pool, because that is what the data is pointing towards.
what data? what the fuck are you talking about? just because you loose a drone (which is 1 supply if your going by that logic) giving it 8 control is still fucking 8 control to much. without making a overlord you will be 8 supply ahead of the other races early in the game from your first pool which is hugely advantageous. and making a 2nd pool after that is just fucking retarded. if you make another pool you will get 8 supply for 200 (TWO HUNDRED) minerals. why not just make a overlord that costs 100 minerals for that 8 supply? or better yet, for the damn price make 2 overlods for 200 minerals and get 16 supply.
learn how to not get supply blocked kk? your idea fails and i dont know why you cant see that.
Because hatcheries are not considered as warrior production, UNTILL, the pool is made/complete.
And a Barracks doesn't produce jack shit until it's complete. What's your point?
Wait...I've had a brilliant idea.
Barracks give 8 food, and Reactors add another 8, while Tech Labs raise the max by 8 (so 1 Tech Lab would be 208 max supply!). That way, no Terran has to make a Supply Depot ever again.
I am not a troll, I only requested that we discuss the data.
We can all admit that we really don't know what blizzard thinks about this.
But all I have received is hate remarks, and name calling. We probably could have been getting somewhere....
Anyways, I have to go to work, I am done here, I will not be responding to any arguments that I feel like do not acknowledge the OP points, or are just hate remarks.
@op, you shouldn't be looking at it as "omg if he snipes my pool it disables all Zerglings" You should look at it like "wow, I only need spawning pool to make zerglings + queens + zerlings speeds based on amount of larva I have".
The supply thing is stupid, it's what makes Zerg stand out. Even if it was available, I'll sitll make an overlord 90% of the time to position and scout with.
lol, I don't noe hoe to paste pics on this, but that picture with 6pool built...that's actually a joke...and is not in any shape and form viable.
what he doesnt understand is that if a tech lab gets sniped off then marauders also cant be produced. same thing with cyber netics core or a dark shrine. hell even reactor wont allow for that 2nd marine to be built. so why not give all those buildings 8 supply to?
while were at it, lets just make all races start with 200 supply and scrap overlords/pylons/depots all together. why the fuck not?!?! its great idea!!!!!! /obvioussarcasm
The game is very very new. Is balance correct? maybe not, does it matter? no.
That video of the guy listings possible changes after having played zerg for 12 years makes me feel he's missed the point of the game. "Could do with being a few seconds faster" "Could do with more health"
If you know your armies weakesses, you learn to use them better. Balance will change over time.. thats guaranteed. Its a strategy game, its full of strategy. some of it known, a lot of it unknown, its beautiful to look at, its great fun to play. What's not to like?
If you are tunnelled visioned over the fine workings of the game you'll miss the game itself.
Theres always a way to win, still applies with zerg.. you know that in your heart, that's why you still click Find Match
I can't believe I actually went through the effort of reading through your posts on the SC2forum website. Still, it gave me a better idea of where you're coming from. Sorta.
You jump from ideas at a ridiculously fast pace. One post you'll suggest one thing, and the next post you'll suggest something else. You seem to have no focus, and it looks like you can't even figure out what kind of problems you want to address half of the time.
I do take issue with your arrogance, though. In your previous posts on the SC2forum you compare yourself with geniuses and state that you've played as much zerg as progamers, and that you'd be just as good as them if you didn't experiment with wackier strategies. Either you are exaggerating in a rather gross fashion, or you seriously need to take a breather from Starcraft. I would personally suggest taking a small break from the game. Find another hobby. Try writing a little or something.
And if we're talking about zerg imbalance (yet again...), I would personally complain about the lack of an easily accessible low-tier ranged unit (I find that the roach, with range 3, is a bit lackluster), as the units available to the zerg early on are extremely fragile/susceptible to kiting. But there's no point in complaining, or in theory-crafting. Just play the game, and try different strats until you or a progamer figures out something.
Someone in the Starcraft2forum.org suggested that Atlasmech suggests his ideas on these forums, before banning him 3-4 times in a row
If you want some more taste about this before closing the thread{which is bound to happen, there's also a bet on the starcraft2forum.org on how long you'll keep it before banning ) check these links below :
wow after looking at that site for 5 seconds, after which I cannot stop my eyes from bleeding, I completely understand why TL doesn't allow image memes and images in sigs. Shit was impossible to read
What it comes down to is that even though your OP is clearly thought out and articulate it doesn't solve any real issue with the game. It would be interesting and would add something "unique" to the zerg race, I suppose, but it would also be completely unnecessary.
There's no point changing something simply for the sake of changing it. Think about it, a simple change has cascading effects from the beginning to the end of a game in every match up. Why change the way that Z builds supply when many people agree that there are other - more important - issues that need to be addressed with the race. (Such as their inability to scout and the fact that the maps are very small, etc).
It seems like you thought of an idea that may be cool and then looked for reasons why it could be useful. Instead of trying to solve a balance issue by examining the facts and then coming up with the extra supply as a solution. That's just poor reasoning.
"We either give the ideas some potential, or we don't. If not, then don't respond "
lmao at OP, telling us to agree with him or not to post at all.
Your idea is just BAD.
1) Zerg needs just one spawning pool to build UNLIMITED* number of zerglings. Terran and Protoss's production capabilities are limited to the number per unit producing structures
2) Supply depots let you wall easily (advantage early game), pylons are required to power buildings (disadvantage), Overlords let you scout your opponent's base, transport units, spread creep, detect invisible units, infiltrate your opponents army without him knowing, hold vision of a large portion of the map, and contaminate buildings. Oh, and Zerg supply is MOBILE. Even though slow without the speed upgrade, it's faster than supply depots or pylons can move
The fact that you would even consider giving the spawning pool 16 food shows your complete lack of understanding of what you are actually proposing, so I will not spend more time responding.
If you are worried about your spawning pool dieing and preventing you from making lings.....build another one?
Zerg has some problems, but this is absolutely 100% NOT one of them.
* Unlimited in respect to lings per pool. Of course still limited by other factors such as money, supply, larva, etc)
I really don't understand what your "fixing" with this idea, I mean is there REALLY an issue with supply? or are you complaining that you don't have enough larvae? (sure it takes a larvae to make an Overlord, but that's pretty small)
I've played around with all the races and the opening game feels very similar for each one, in fact when I play zerg I find that if I get a queen right after pool then I'm usually not even able to spend all the larvae from injections after the 2nd or 3rd one (assuming I spend all energy on injections, none for creep). Granted I'm not very practiced with zerg and I pool a little early (13 gas, 13 pool is typically what I do).
That video is really bad as well, it's just 14 min of a guy QQing about how each zerg unit is flawed and it doesn't even make sense all that much, "Infester is too Big" wtf?
I'd read more of your opening post, but it's just too big, and the first few paragraphs jumped into this "fix" without really explaining where its coming from. Sure you compare to the other races supply/building cost w/e, but seeing as how the races are supposed to operate differently it's a moot point. Besides, it's not like zerg is ever really behind on supply thanks to other races, in fact thanks to the larvae mechanic Zerg is able to outproduce the other races soooo well as they can be morphing in 14 units at one time off 2 Hatch.
People need to learn the game better before you try and say it's broken after a month and a half, and try to make drastic changes like this.
My last question wasn't answered, and then some more people asked similarly - we can't find the reasons that motivate this suggestion? I'm not saying whether the suggestion would work well or not - this could be tested in a UMS map. But I don't see what motivated it, what is the problem with the current Zerg supply system, which is being solved here? The OP apart from formatting is well written, the suggestion is worth thinking about, but why is it needed?
On September 17 2010 04:58 Stirlitz wrote: Someone in the Starcraft2forum.org suggested that Atlasmech suggests his ideas on these forums, before banning him 3-4 times in a row
If you want some more taste about this before closing the thread{which is bound to happen, there's also a bet on the starcraft2forum.org on how long you'll keep it before banning ) check these links below :
I can go on but I believe these are overwhelming enough. Gl
For those to lazy to click on the links here is my favorite quote.
Atlasmech2: Incase you didn't know, I was banned from the blizzard forums for making absurd complaints about zerg. Now I am banned from these forums for doing the same. But if you know something is wrong with an obtusely designed race (Zerg) it becomes hard to put your finger on what exactly that problem is.
I will be moving on now to the TeamLiquid Forums, but I am currently under a 3 day trial period before I can post a thread, this is what I will be posting there.
He's like a vagrant theorycrafter moving from site to site as he gets banned.
thing is.... the "depots/pylons" of zerg (and im saying this from an 1100 diamond zerg perspective) is that once you get speed... they're mostly worth the cost b/c they can just fly over and get the 2nd easiest scout in the game (cost/vision wise... first being phoenix)
and like someone else said... the game is a bit too far after release to make a change like this
Go easy on this guy, he obviously knows something we(the lesser community) and them(top level players) haven't figured out. I am sure if he worked for blizzard, the game would be so balanced you would see 33.3% race distribution at all levels in every region.
Don't let the fact he has been roflbanned from every respectable sc2 discussion he has ever tried to start. He is like the godfather of sc2 balance, hear him out.
Yes, of course as soon as you factor the pool, zerg are capable of making a lot of offense, But I'm just curious why terran and protoss have all this food while zerg doesn't. It kind of suggests that zerg wouldn't really be able to properly take advantage of that mass production.
But the point is, it isn't until pool is made that the offense can be made. This makes the spawning pool a very key building, a very important building, especially when it comes to its role. I do think it being worth 8 food, that it is the small flaw that has been holding zerg back. I mean, zerg only make 1 pool anyways.
I would like to propose the notion that zerg is actually a split race, and that is what makes zerg unique from the terran and the protoss. Zerg is truly the odd race out.
Perhaps this should have been considered to a certain degree when considering zerg food style?
I still gave the data which shows how if pool was simply worth 8 food, it would then be balanced in cost and food.
To the guy who said early pool would be stronger. It wouldn't. All it would do is make the follow through be a greater follow through to some degree, and the recovery, if the agression was chose not to be followed up on, a more effective recovery to some degree.
Why are you comparing 2 hatch + 1 ovie to 1 CC + 2 depot and not 1 hatch 2 ovie?
On September 17 2010 11:10 AtlasMech wrote: This makes the spawning pool a very key building, a very important building, especially when it comes to its role.
There you have it, the pool is already a key building. Why do you need to add 8 food to it?
On September 14 2010 03:16 JWD wrote: Please stop making [proposed balance / game change] threads in SC2 general. No no no. We have several threads left open on game balance, please post there (if anywhere).
You have to understand that if we let every "I think SC2 should be X" topic stay open in SC2 general there would be absolutely nothing useful to read around here.
Not to mention that your proposed changes are outrageous given the current structure of the game.
EPT
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