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Why the Terran problems are not an imbalance issue

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Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:16:40
September 10 2010 00:52 GMT
#1
Okay so everyones crying over Terran imba, terran OP but after quite a long time of looking at it and watching games and really thinking about it I have come to a conclusion. The terran race seems slightly overtuned but it's not an issue with any one particular unit it's a combination of many things that when put together makes it very difficult to solve. So instead of making another whine thread I plan on laying out the issues that I see and putting up the problem that is "how do you fix this?" Because there really is no easy way to solve some of the issues that we are seeing without breaking other things.

So what exactly am I talking about? Let me elaborate for you on some of the specific non numbers related issues that are causing problems in the way the Terran units work.

Issue #1: This thing
[image loading]
Not even going to mention how you can't tell if it's upgrading or not.

Stop and think about the number of tech buildings required for Terran, once you have a barracks a factory and a starport the only additional tech buildings are: Armory, Ghost Academy, and Fusion Core (lol). Okay we're seeing more of the last one but all of the rest comes down to switching things around on those tech labs. They're cheap they build quickly and it's easy with any decent amount of APM to swap around buildings to change your tech patterns dramatically. This entire dynamic allows Terran to if anything easier to switch tech paths with than a zerg player. A Zerg player has to drop a building in order to make a new unit and if that building is scouted then you know what is coming.

Protoss need relatively few tech buildings as well but it's a little easier to tell when they're switching techs because of a few things. Armory can mean thors or it could just be to get more upgrades you don't know whats coming out of that factory until you see the unit pop out. Ghost Academy is a pretty strong indication of GHOSTS fair enough same as Fusion Core but even if they're just sitting on an Armory possibly just for upgrades they can on short notice switch their tech patterns around easily. 3 Rax bio easily with some tech lab switching becomes banshee raven marine. More switching becomes Marauder Thor Medivac. Terran one of the toughest races to scout is able to freely tech switch almost the easiest. This is kind of a problem. Why are they the hardest race to scout? Well thats another point

Issue #2: Sensor Towers
[image loading]
Two of these well placed cause the famous "tits of pain" in different sense

Okay Sensor Towers are a decent idea but the issue is they're pretty cheap, build just as fast a missile turret. Theres no way to counter them, their coverage is ridiculously big and the ability to see units on the minimap requires little to no effort to use them effectively.

So basically we have a cheap spammable tower from pretty much any time forward once you get past the early game that gives terran the ability to know when you're trying to outmaneuver them. They are supposed to be the slow race easy to outmaneuver and abuse their immobility but this does not work when they know it's coming without even having to spend scans. Sensor towers require zero APM, originally in alpha IIRC they only showed units on the fog of war not on the minimap even this would be preferable as players would have to be watching their sensor tower coverage not just sitting macroing while staring at their minimap able to see incoming drops every time. Oh yeah drops

Issue #3: Medivacs
[image loading]
The "heal bus"

Okay this is not the typical complaint about Medivacs, their healing is a lot but whatever medics were pretty freaking powerful as well. The issue is that in order for any decent terran bio strategy the Medivac is required for the healing unless you're going to be going for an early game allin if you don't have medivacs you're doing it wrong. This opens up a unique dynamic to the Terran players, they already have drop tech in almost every game they do not have to spend extra resources in order to drop you because they are already producing a small army of dropships.

In Brood War dropships were a seperate investment that took away from a necessary unit the Science Vessel. In lategame you needed to be pumping Science Vessels in order to make dropships this production had to temporarily cease. Going for drops was a decision for them in BW as it is now for both of the other races in SC2. Protoss have to stop making immortals/colossus/observers to make a warp prism. If they try to do it late game see point #2 on why that won't work. So early drops are this decision to reduce your colossus or Immortal count by Protoss and it better damned well pay off or thats 200 minerals + time that could have gone towards more useful army units.

[image loading]
Most people don't realize how much of of an investment these are other than just 200 minerals.

Zerg players have to sit through two extremely long tech 2 upgrades on their hatch/Lair totalling 300/300 minerals resources. It's understandable that they have to upgrade and overlords dont automatically drop because they already HAVE to make overlords. See this is where I run into the issue. Both races have to make these units as part of their strategies unless the Terran is going hardcore mech. But only the zerg has to upgrade the drop capability. Terran gains the ability to with no resources invested besides the APM required to shift click a drop in your base while doing something else. This plus the fact that #2 means you cannot do it to them as effecitvely makes this rather infurating as a Zerg or a Protoss.

Issue #4: Auto-repair
[image loading]
These little guys even though they are missing health are rather formidabble.

This is a two fold issue, the fact that like many other mechanics auto-repair requires no APM right click the icon when you want to use it then turn it off when you are done. This makes strategies such as a fast thor repair allin or a battlecruiser rush inherently more powerful because you have two extremely powerful lategame units being supported by a small army of repairing scvs that require no micro. This means that you only have to support the big ass unit with a few of it's supporting units and let the scvs do their own thing. This takes away considerably from the skill required to execute these types of strategies.

Second issue is the fact that Medivacs take a high priority on auto attack priority because of the fact that they are healing the enemy army. This makes sense many players rage over this but I can understand the reasoning. This is one of the many inconsistencies with terran right here, because the scv when repairing not only is pretty much the lowest unit on the priority list it is one of the hardest to focus fire as opposed to the Medivac. Two units which heal/support the enemy army and the one that is easy to right click on takes auto attack priority and the one that is often hidden by the 3D models it is repairing does not. The main issue is the fact that that thor rush that BC rush that we were talkinga bout earlier while not inherently overpowered because it's a huge investment if it doesn't work they're screwed. This winds up working out like many other all-in attacks but the keys to defeating these strategies often lay in killing the scvs which is not easy even if they're out in the open due to the supporting units but now we're talking about scvs that don't have to be controlled and are hidden by their massive units they are supporting. If one of the two units Medivac and repairing scvs should be on the high priority list it should be repairing scvs.

[image loading]
If he were attacking from above you wouldn't be able to see most of those SCVS.

Now this could cause an issue with an scv mining with auto repair being on taking a higher priority but since they already have this priority system worked out pretty nicely with the scvs the check that the game system should make instead of being "is autorepair == on" or whatever code equivalent it should be "is unitattacktoggle == on or isunitaction == repair" subsitute generic variables for the real ones. Make it so that scvs who are repairing are on the same priority as Medivacs again not a unit balance issue just a mechanic issue.

Conclusion

These four things while not the usual things that get whined about in Terran being imba are not easily fixed by tweaking a few numbers as might happen with the Battlecruiser attack damage, or reaper build time, or tank damage etc etc. These are more along the lines of the Core mechanics of the Terran race that cause issues. The problem is that many of these issues work very well together, see #2 and #3 together possibly in combination with #4. And #1 and #2 together meaning quick tech switches with the inability to scout it. This will not be fixed by a simple "just do this" answer it requires more elegant solutions as like I said they're based around supposed staples of the Terran mechanics.

There are somewhat simple fixes that you might be able to suggest but would they really fix the problem? If you notice one of the main things in common with the issues is #2 #3 and #4 all require very little APM. Sensor towers require no management, Medivacs can be easily shift+queued and autorepair takes one click. Even if you change these to take some APM the top level players will still be able to muster the actions to do these effectively anyways, yes it will be tougher and make it much harder so that you can stress a player into missing these mechanics. This might be a way to create a soft fix to the mechanic but it would go against blizzard wanting to make levels of play between top and casuals at least somewhat equal. The only way to counter it is to be a top player and put stress on the terran is not the type of fix that they seem to like so far.

The point #1 on Tech Labs is probably the weakest one as it's not as big of an issue as the other three but in combination with #2 it becomes a pretty big problem.

Solutions?

I can think of a few off the top of my head but they all have downsides.

  • Make the drop capability of Medivacs an upgrade just like Zerg as they will be making these units to heal their army in a similar manner to zergs making overlords for supply. They are a necessary unit so why should they get drop capability for no extra cost. This would also require a tech lab on a starport initially in order to start drops.

    -This also would make it even harder to scout what a Terran is doing causing more inferences. Late to midgame Starport with a tech lab on it, has he already upgraded drop? Is he going for ravens or is he about to switch with a reactor and make Medivacs.

  • Make Sensor Towers manageable, either give them an activated ability with a cooldown or energy cost or remove the sight on Mini map harking back to the early days when you could only see the units on the fog of war. Make Terrans have to do more than just make a tower. Because even if they get killed it does not take much time or resources to replace a tower which pretty much prevents you from being able to be dropped on if you have them in good position with antiair on standby.

    -Forcing terrans to pan across the fog of war in order to keep up seems a bit silly, yes go stare at the black area. Hmm not the most elegant solution, and MBS makes hitting 0 and hitting the E key to keep your sensor tower coverage up somewhat easier.

  • Make a toggle on scvs so that when they are repairing they are a higher priority unit similar to the one for when they are attacking, this is mostly because of the fact that it can be difficult to focus fire units behind a thor, under a battlecruiser as opposed to a Medivac which already is a high priority unit but flies above everything else and is inherently easier to target as needed.

    -As stated earlier this could cause issues with the targetting priority of mining scvs.


Afterword
Please keep in mind the final sentences of the introductory paragraph, don't let this degenerate into TERRAN IMBA CRY CRY WHINE WHINE WHY BLIZZ WHY. But more of a "how can we think of ways to elegantly solve this." This will come down to the KISS method of the simplest solutions will probably some of the best. But this does not mean "just remove it" is an answer either. I'm still unsure as to what might fix these issues so thats why I am bringing this up and soliciting opinions. This really isnt a numbers problem of change the health, change their cost etc etc.

tl;dr
No you don't get one look back up and read it lazy bum.

edits: spelling so far
Itzeddiieee
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)787 Posts
September 10 2010 00:57 GMT
#2
The sensor towers are a huge problem... i mean, the ability to track the enemy's movements and drops with just a simple building is just so painful as a zerg myself.
birdkicker
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States752 Posts
September 10 2010 00:58 GMT
#3
Zerg player approves.
EvasivE
Profile Joined July 2010
United States70 Posts
September 10 2010 01:01 GMT
#4
with the insane amount of options and most terran players very rare deviation from the norm is what makes people not care for or respect terran players.
!
MegaBUD
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada179 Posts
September 10 2010 01:03 GMT
#5
Wow... seriously?

First... you compare tech/reactor with zerg ability to just make one building and every hatchery can do the unit?

Medivac cost 100/100... and are light units with low hp... compare that to toss warp in...

Auto repair? meh... whatever.

But i like you... your the only one that doesnt qq about marauder with stim.
Grond
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
599 Posts
September 10 2010 01:03 GMT
#6
On September 10 2010 09:52 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
The terran race seems slightly overtuned but it's not an issue with any one particular unit it's a combination of many things that when put together makes it very difficult to solve.


I particularly agree with this.

I agree with the ones you listed but also think it is a lot of other little things as well. What concerns me is if it is indeed an issue of many things are just a little too good it may take a very long time to fix.
Dog22
Profile Joined April 2010
United States140 Posts
September 10 2010 01:03 GMT
#7
I definitely agree with the medivac ideas. I think it is a bit crazy that they can have a handful of dropships as an OPTION at any given time. They don't even need to use them for drops, but the option is there, thus the fear is also present in the opponent just from their presence.

Also, you mentioned in the caption about how you can't see upgrades on tech labs. I think this needs to happen 100000%. I HATE not being able to tell if they are upgrading or not. Really frustrating. I am biased, especially when you can SEE what unit someone is making out of a stargate yet you there is no indication if a terran is upgrading at all...
PsionicOtter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States16 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:06:19
September 10 2010 01:04 GMT
#8
You've got some decent points, but I think it's kind of folly to leave out the massive impact that the Marauder has on the dynamics of the race. There would be little wrong with Terran's defensive, countering power if they were just the defensive, countering race. However, a stimmed Marauder ball can kite and murder most other comparable forces on the ground (at lower tech tiers). This presents Terran with a offensive powerhouse that can be a serious hurdle for other races to overcome, then when they do, they have to cope with all the other crazy stuff the Terran has been doing in the meantime.

I'm not sure if the stuff you mentioned is the problem or if the Marauder is the problem and I don't feel I'm good enough at the game to make a judgment on it. All I'm saying is that the Marauder gives an otherwise defensive race a monstrous offense option and that versatility might be at the root of the problem and it should be in the discussion.
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:05:50
September 10 2010 01:04 GMT
#9
On September 10 2010 10:03 MegaBUD wrote:
Wow... seriously?

First... you compare tech/reactor with zerg ability to just make one building and every hatchery can do the unit?

Medivac cost 100/100... and are light units with low hp... compare that to toss warp in...

Auto repair? meh... whatever.

But i like you... your the only one that doesnt qq about marauder with stim.


Read the post there are particular reasons, and it is not any one of these issues individually that is the problem. It is when they are used in conjunction, first you're comparing medivac cost to warpins? Those two are completely unrelated.

Second is you skipped one of my points and then completely ignored the last one? Try to be more constructive if you are going to disagree with me please.

On September 10 2010 10:04 PsionicOtter wrote:
You've got some decent points, but I think it's kind of folly to leave out the massive impact that the Marauder has on the dynamics of the race. There would be little wrong with Terran's defensive, countering power if they were just the defensive, countering race. However, a stimmed Marauder ball can kite and murder almost any other comparable force on the ground (at lower tech tiers). This presents Terran with a offensive powerhouse that can be a serious hurdle for other races to overcome, then when they do, they have to cope with all the other crazy stuff the Terran has been doing in the meantime.

I'm not sure if the stuff you mentioned is the problem or if the Marauder is the problem and I don't feel I'm good enough at the game to make a judgment on it. All I'm saying is that the Marauder gives an otherwise defensive race a monstrous offense option and that versatility might be at the root of the problem.


This I see as more of a numbers problem and not related to this thread as Blizzard can ideally tweak the numbers and Marauders are fine.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
September 10 2010 01:04 GMT
#10
sensor towers are fine and a cool addition to the game: they are very vulnerable and actually expensive (100 minerals 150 gas i believe?).

medivacs are fine, since they are only useful with bio, and each race has sick ways to deal with bio.

terran tech patterns are fine and unique. it wasn't really any different in broodwar, the main difference is that barracks, factory, and starport have many combinations of units that work well together.

autorepair, i agree, is ridiculous.
Dog22
Profile Joined April 2010
United States140 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:07:34
September 10 2010 01:05 GMT
#11
On September 10 2010 10:03 MegaBUD wrote:

Medivac cost 100/100... and are light units with low hp... compare that to toss warp in...



I WISH medivacs were light...

They also have 150 hp while warp prism has 100 HP and 40 Shield (correct me if I'm wrong)

edit: Oh and medivacs have 1 armor as well, warp prism has 0
LuckyMacro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1482 Posts
September 10 2010 01:06 GMT
#12
Good post overall.
Whiplash
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2928 Posts
September 10 2010 01:07 GMT
#13
Ya I really agree with you on the medivac issue, they are simply too powerful in their current state. I haven't experienced too much issues with the sensor towers tbh, but this may be more of a tvz issue then tvp issue.
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator. Former Starcraft commentator/player
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
September 10 2010 01:10 GMT
#14
you forgot planetary fortresses :D

also i wouldn't complain if medvacs were 125 minerals 125 gas, i think that would be reasonable
www.root-gaming.com
ooglyboogly
Profile Joined September 2010
United States6 Posts
September 10 2010 01:10 GMT
#15
I also agree on the medivac issue. Every bio army has medivacs and by default drop capability. I feel it is too easy to shift que drops with these medivacs and easily snipe expansions and mains, especially since marauders kill buildings so fast. It requires so much more apm to respond to these drops as well.
echO [W]
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1495 Posts
September 10 2010 01:11 GMT
#16
Lalush also had a thread about Terran imba, as a terran player I say his points are extremely valid and reasonable.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140724
"Or a school bus over a bunch of kids" - Tasteless --- “A man's errors are his portals of discovery.” - James Joyce
lol.Donkament
Profile Joined June 2010
Malta50 Posts
September 10 2010 01:12 GMT
#17

Vey good post
Im ok with all points and you solution, but many other things need to be fix like 25sec missilT Vs 40sec for spore build construction
marrauder = 20D Vs armored and can use stim pack, the marrauder is cheap 100/25 have 6 range
hellion is cheap units too.

solution :
MissilT construction 25sec to 35sec
Remove stim pack for marrauder, make stim pack less cheaper, upgrade for Marrauder need countdown.
Hellion cost 100/25.
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
September 10 2010 01:12 GMT
#18
On September 10 2010 10:05 Dog22 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 10:03 MegaBUD wrote:

Medivac cost 100/100... and are light units with low hp... compare that to toss warp in...



I WISH medivacs were light...

They also have 150 hp while warp prism has 100 HP and 40 Shield (correct me if I'm wrong)

edit: Oh and medivacs have 1 armor as well, warp prism has 0


how would them being light change anything? wouldn't it be better if they were armored, more units do bonus dmg vs armored, unless you want thors and phoenix to pwn medivacs
www.root-gaming.com
ROOTdrewbie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1392 Posts
September 10 2010 01:14 GMT
#19
On September 10 2010 10:12 lol.Donkament wrote:

Vey good post
Im ok with all points and you solution, but many other things need to be fix like 25sec missilT Vs 40sec for spore build construction
marrauder = 20D Vs armored and can use stim pack, the marrauder is cheap 100/25 have 6 range
hellion is cheap units too.

solution :
MissilT construction 25sec to 35sec
Remove stim pack for marrauder, make stim pack less cheaper, upgrade for Marrauder need countdown.
Hellion cost 100/25.


lol good joke
lets make tanks 400/400 and 6 supply while we're at it, and banshees only 1 attack instead of 2 and 20 hp and remove cloak
www.root-gaming.com
PsionicOtter
Profile Joined August 2010
United States16 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 01:15:56
September 10 2010 01:14 GMT
#20
On September 10 2010 10:04 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 10:04 PsionicOtter wrote:
You've got some decent points, but I think it's kind of folly to leave out the massive impact that the Marauder has on the dynamics of the race. There would be little wrong with Terran's defensive, countering power if they were just the defensive, countering race. However, a stimmed Marauder ball can kite and murder almost any other comparable force on the ground (at lower tech tiers). This presents Terran with a offensive powerhouse that can be a serious hurdle for other races to overcome, then when they do, they have to cope with all the other crazy stuff the Terran has been doing in the meantime.

I'm not sure if the stuff you mentioned is the problem or if the Marauder is the problem and I don't feel I'm good enough at the game to make a judgment on it. All I'm saying is that the Marauder gives an otherwise defensive race a monstrous offense option and that versatility might be at the root of the problem.


This I see as more of a numbers problem and not related to this thread as Blizzard can ideally tweak the numbers and Marauders are fine.


I'm not saying it isn't a numbers problem, but that doesn't mean that correcting it can't fix a number of other issues. As you said,

They are supposed to be the slow race easy to outmaneuver and abuse their immobility


Being able to apply serious pressure with ye-olde Marauder ball kinda screws with the tradition of Terrans having to sit inside their wall-in and play more reactively. If the Marauder push option becomes worse, it allows their opponents to focus more on beating the other things that Terran has going for them.
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