EPTWhy the Terran problems are not an imbalance issue - Page 3
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:26 avilo wrote: I really do not like how nowadays threads are aimed at how to change the game, rather than play the game better =/ and btw, i applaud your slick naming of this thread to make it appear it's not a "balance thread." You name it "why it's not an imba issue" and then the thread is about things that appear imbalanced to you. ... I really like how zerg got nerfed in the beta instead of terrans trying to play better(i.e. copying jinro ghost style).. YEA. You must be utterly retarded if seeing most of the tournaments ending up with 6 terrans in the top 8 makes you think it isnt a balance issue. | ||
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shynee
Canada180 Posts
Maybe fix one of two things, but not everything. Protoss is actually considered the strongest race in Korea, as most of you probably heard. Storm > Everything. Warp in anything > rally. Stop making these posts. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:30 taffy wrote: So basically you're saying terran is overpowered, but the way to fix it is to make them click more? Why not just fix the broken units? Does calling it "overtuned" help you get more buy-in from terrans? In my opinion Imbalance and Overpowered and many other common terms means that the unit numbers are wrong. Yes my definition might not be completely correct but we're dealing with different things here. I'm not even accusing the terrans of having stupidly powerful units because I think the units themselves for the most part are fine with a few minor tweaks needed here and there the same as Zerg and Protoss. But some of their core mechanics need some work so all of this whining and effort going into fixing the marauder damage numbers etc etc could be fixed in more elegant solutions that would fix more of the units at the same time by changing some of these core mechanics. Why so confrontational? If you disagree with me spell out why. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
I really think neo-steel frame should make medivacs go from 4 space to 8 space (aka 4 marines to 8 marines) and have a different look when upgraded. Or make medivacs slower. Just something. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:31 lu_cid wrote: This... We're not in beta anymore. I don't think the game can be perfectly balanced at the moment without changing it drastically. Maybe they'll balance it after an expansion is released. ... In 2 years... great. | ||
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
I guess a possible fix would be to let factories and rax share the tech lab but not the starport to give people more time to deal with banshees and the possibility of a BC repair rush. #2 Agreed. Its like someone at blizzard HQ during development stages said... "in sc1 terran was the immobile race, lets give them something to help out with fending off drops" 2 weeks later marauders and medvacs got into the game and they just "forgot" to remove it. I have no words to describe how dumb i feel my opponent is when I actually manage to sneak in a warp prism into his base because he refused to build a 100/100 structure that is in no risk of dying, lasts the whole game and gives him so much tactical data. I wouldn't even try to fix this unit, I'd remove it because it has absolutely no place in a fog of war RTS where the race is not forced to be immobile. #3. Agreed but Id like to add the medvacs themselves aren't the real problem here. Its the fact that the units medvacs carry 98% of the time can kill buildings so fast it doesn't matter if I actually get there in time with some reinforcements. Marauder / marine kiting ends up killing whatever they want. I suppose you could remove medvacs, bring back medics and force terran to make dropships, but knowing blizzard that ain't gonna happen. #4 Agreed. This is horseshit. I need not to describe how stupid it is to attack a PF or BC with 10 scvs beneath it. Probably the most upsetting part about fending off scv repair based rushes is that you usually end up taking so much damage that terran has a very large window to recover by using mules, dropping 3 bunkers at their front and be safe... thus giving them more chances to get back in the game with harras / drop play. Simple fix. Only 1 scv can repair each building / unit. Done | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:35 Doko wrote: #1 I think the tech labs actually have an animation, it sometimes shows when im watching replays. It just never does it in real time. The main issue I see here is that the same building is used for factory, rax and starport and basically every upgrade that comes out of it is ridiculously cheap for how good they are. I guess a possible fix would be to let factories and rax share the tech lab but not the starport to give people more time to deal with banshees and the possibility of a BC repair rush. @#1 they have an animation but it also displays an animation when a unit is being built instead of just making an upgrade. | ||
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:31 lu_cid wrote: This... We're not in beta anymore. I don't think the game can be perfectly balanced at the moment without changing it drastically. Maybe they'll balance it after an expansion is released. Wrong. This is an online game. Balance changes happen well after beta ends. Better yet, we're in the early stages of retail, the prime time for balance changes to be made. This is the time when Blizzard needs to be making core changes (like SCV auto-repair and creep mechanics) and leave these 5 second build time changes for later tweaks. SC2 is very well balanced, but there ARE issues and it makes little sense for Blizzard or anybody else to ignore them and act like they will go away. Raelcuns post hits the right idea, 5 seconds here or 2 damage there isn't going to do anything, the base of the issues need to be addressed, not every individual unit that benefits from them. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
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[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
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StormWeapon
United States159 Posts
Like pushing back the fog of war in a certain (tested) radius, it would be powerful but less so compared to the semi-maphack they are now. I have considered a number of ways to add/change tech structures, however, I don't really know what would be a sensible alteration. What compounds this is that I feel they should be the most adaptable/dynamic race when it comes to their tech paths. Removing auto-casting is something I've wanted for awhile, not because of terran, it would simply increase the skill ceiling a bit. I would like to see some form it remain in regards to baneling mines and possibly other things I haven't thought of. | ||
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228zip
France36 Posts
I'll also have to agree on the target priority issue. It's extremely frustrating to see thors or hydralisks shooting at medivacs while they need to be hitting the marines, and even more when zerglings are running around a thors surrounded by repairing SCVs. And for the tech lab not showing when it's researching, I've been wondering why there's no animation for that ever since the start of the beta. You should be able to tell when your opponent is getting stim or cloak =/ Overall, a well constructed post with interesting points. Your idea of making it necessary for medivacs to have an upgrade to transport definitely deserves some attention; but I'll refrain on commenting on it due to my relative inexperience. EDIT: Spelling. | ||
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arsenic
United States163 Posts
Sensor Towers need to just be removed because they detract so much from the whole idea of map control, map awareness and scouting which are all huge ideas in a fog of war type RTS. They're just... a bad idea. Medivacs should have their abilities divorced and it'd be great to see the Medic and Dropship as separate units rather than combined. However, this would have some very serious implications depending on how quickly you could get Medics out, infantry would have to be retuned for that. It'd be a very difficult thing to implement. Also, Stim'ed Marauders kill buildings way too quickly for people to respond in many situations which makes the ease of acquiring "drops" even more ridiculous. And as Doko said, just limit the number of SCV's that are able to repair a unit. There's really no reason that a Terran player should be able to repair units or structures that quickly. | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
A Stalker deals 10/14 (Armoured) damage every 1.44 seconds. (A DPS of 6.94r/9.7r). This gives a problem where 2 Stalkers (250/100) against 1 Marine and 1 Medivac would lose because the Stalker's combined DPS is (6.94 x 2 ) 13.88r meaning that against the 13.5 HPS the Stalkers are dealing (13.88r - 13.5 hps) 0.388r DPS. Against a Marine without combat shields (45 hp) this would cause the 2 Stalkers (note we're dealing with 250/100 against 150/100) to take 118.4 seconds to kill the Marine (assuming the Medivac never runs out of energy). If you were to target the Medivac first, however, it would take (150/17.4(-2[+1 armour reducing 1 damage from both Stalker attacks])) 8.6 seconds followed by a further 3.2 seconds to kill the Marine for a total of 11.8 seconds. In this 11.8 seconds, however, the Marine is dealing 6.97 dps (factoring in the -1 damage from the Stalker armour). In the 11.8 seconds it takes to kill both the Medivac/Marine [assuming you target the Medivac first) the Marine deals 82.2 damage. This is the problem I find, as Protoss, against Terran. If both armies are equal the Protoss gets absolutely crushed because of the insane healing of the medivac. With proper control, from the Terran player, it takes 3 Stalkers to do enough damage to negate the healing effect of 1 Medivac against 1 Marine. While the Medivac is healing, however, the Terran army is at full strength because it's not losing numbers. As Protoss, therefore, you are forced into a stalling game where any early pressure/drops can easily tilt the flow of the game into the Terran's favour. Today in the GSL we saw Tester against JSL and in game 1 (on Scrap Station) Tester was ahead in food the entire game and had teched to both Colossi and High Templar, yet because of the strength of the Terran army and the food difference not being as big as it needed to be Tester could never attack head on until a drop was made in his base - at which point it was either a "go for the kill" or "retreat and lose the game". A game where you are ahead the entire time should not ever result in a stalemate where you cannot kill your opponent after he makes numerous mistakes because of the strength of a healing unit. Oh, and that was a Marine. A Marauder can kill 2 Stalkers and bring a third Stalker to 20~ health without Stimpack and the Medivac healing it. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:10 drewbie.root wrote: you forgot planetary fortresses :D also i wouldn't complain if medvacs were 125 minerals 125 gas, i think that would be reasonable I think this is a nice suggestion. Medics in SC:BW were 50/25. Medivacs are more than double that, did you really think the drop capability comes "for free"? Since dropships were 100/100 in BW, I think the cost could be increase a bit more, but dropping capability is certainly not free at the moment. | ||
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