EPTwhy are threads like this still being made when we know there a patch coming out that could change a lot?
Why the Terran problems are not an imbalance issue - Page 5
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
why are threads like this still being made when we know there a patch coming out that could change a lot? | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:19 King K. Rool wrote: Started out good, but that last paragraph almost killed it. yeah, but it's true nevertheless | ||
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Bleb
Croatia278 Posts
I agree that T is not as OP as some might say... It's just that T has so many perks and imo some upgrades are too cheap... | ||
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Zeridian
United States198 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:26 EleanorRIgby wrote: sensor towers are like paper and cost a bunch of gas and your opponent can see where they are.... why are threads like this still being made when we know there a patch coming out that could change a lot? simple answer for a simple question, most people don't believe the changes will make that much a difference. | ||
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Capook
United States122 Posts
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Skeyser
Canada219 Posts
[B]On September 10 2010 09:52 iCCup.Raelcun wrote Issue #1: This thing ![[image loading]](http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7048/200pxtechlabsc2rend1.jpg) Not even going to mention how you can't tell if it's upgrading or not. I might be crazy, but I'm pretty sure the green part of the tech lab lights up when it's upgrading. | ||
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hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
So let's talk about a few things that were possible problems for Terrans. * The most obvious one was that Supply depots were commonly used as a part of a wall in conjunction with a building that could be lifted. Units would enter/leave via the building lifting. A lifted building cannot produce units which meant that you had to be very careful about timing your lifts. This is no longer the case since supply depots can be lowered. Vulnerability has been reduced (no interruptions to build time, quick raise/lower vs lift/land) and micro has been reduced (lift/land is finickier than raide/lower). * Comsat station is now Orbital command. In SC:BW you would sometimes attempt to DT rush or Lurker rush a Terran opponent. In most cases they would have a comsat station which would be the first target, you take that out and he is forced to get Science vessels (long build time + expensive tech) or build turrets in order to detect (take down the SCVs before they can complete). Comsat stations have a third the health of a CC making them more vulnerable. Now in SC2 if you want to take out Terran's scanning ability, you have to take down the entire OC, in most cases by the time you are able to attempt such an attack, they already have a second OC anyway. The OC also gives you Mules/Supply drops without having to upgrade anything. Comsat required academy, academy required barracks which meant you had to wait for two buildings to complete. Now in SC2, barracks is the only requirement. The net result is that in order to take down Terran scans, you have to pretty much be in a position to win the game anyway. The only race that can take down scans is Terran themselves with EMP to the OC. Again, vulnerability has been reduced (lower tech, higher HP) and micro has been reduced (single OC hotkey can invoke more abilities). Many possible proposals for changing the above situation. e.g. Change abilities to have independent timers (reduces spam), force upgrades/further requirements to unlock additional abilities (e.g. engineering bay unlocks supply drops), change scanner sweep to be a calldown (like the other two abilities) such that a small doodad is visible and attackable (e.g. air attack only). The last point would provide a means for reducing the impact of such a sure fire ability which cannot be countered - turrets/spore/cannons would be effective against scanner sweep. * Nukes. They are now separated from the CC meaning you aren't limited by the number of CCs you build and they don't compete with scanner sweep anymore. They also no longer take up supply whereas in SC:BW building a nuke required 8 supply. Lets not forget that they are cheaper than their BW counterpart and take less time to build, and with multiple ghost academies, you can have many nukes up pretty easily, especially considering that the ghost academies are cheaper than silos (gas wise), take less time to build (without factoring the CC even!) and have more than twice the HP. Vulnerability has been reduced (high HP building, shorter build time, no supply blocking, shorter tech tree) and micro remains the same I guess. * EMP. What used to be a science vessel ability at a range of 8, has now been given to a far stealthier unit (even without cloak it is harder to spot than a big floating sphere) which can be cast from a range of 10 and does not require any upgrades. Seems to be a similar theme here, vulnerability has been reduced (stealthier unit, no upgrade cost, shorter tech tree) and micro has been reduced (longer casting range). * PDD. This is the most WTF ability IMO. How a completely ranged attacking race has such an ability to reduce the effectiveness of Zerg (Protoss have fewer units which are affected by it) was seen as balanced is beyond comprehension. The only ranged Zerg unit not affected by PDD is a summoned unit (Infested Terran) and only Zerg have no means of rendering it useless (Terran have EMP and Protoss have Feedback). Right now PDD is underused, but give it time and it'll be seen as a completely game breaking mechanic. Muta magic box gots nothing on this. This post is getting too long so I'll leave it at that for the time being. | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
Look at the current SC2 top leagues and tournaments. I don't see Terrans dominating. The game is balanced out well, no need for major fix or altering game play. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I myself don't use sensor towers much, but I imagine they exist because terran can't afford to scan randomly anymore. If scanning didn't interrupt mules (or if instead, sensor towers could scan), the current form of sensor towers probably wouldn't be needed. Making the current tower feature cost energy wouldn't be horrible idea I think, except that if it cost energy instead of just a cool-down they might be fairly useless, since you could easily miss a drop without missing a "scan" depending on how long the cooldown was. If the ring still appeared to opponent, everyone would just drop right after the thing "scanned", and it would be useless. Making medics prevents you from making vikings, or if not on a reactor prevents you from making ravens and banshees. All four units are incredibly powerful and useful in any situation. You know how terrans get by this? They make more starports. Tell your protoss buddies to make more robos if they're concerned making warp prisms will game-endedly delay their observer/colos/immortal. Not costing any gas makes warp prisms pretty cheap imo (compared to terran), since gas is the limiting factor in almost any time in the game. I'd gladly trade 100/100 for 200/0. Warp prisms can be proxy pylons too, just like medics also heal. It's not like terran magically gets extra stuff with their dropship where protoss doesn't. I'm not going to try to argue whether healing or proxy pylon is worth more, my point is just that the warp prism is imo equal to the medivac in usefulness/requiredness. All protoss builds should involve warp prisms to let them warp in stuff wherever. Pylons can be found/killed pretty easily, and you usually can't make one in your opponent's main past 2 minutes in. I agree that it's gay it's so hard to snipe repairing scvs. Increasing their priority basically makes them useless during a fight, and only lets them heal after a fight (the way protoss shields regen). In Engine of War in campaign you needed to repair the Odin often. It had a shitload of hp but you still needed to repair it. Repairing scvs were auto-targetted in it, and they died so incredibly fast there was no point in trying to repair it during a fight. You had to just have your scvs follow it and only repair at the last second or after a fight, or your fragile little 45-hp workers died before they could repair 5 hp. I don't know if that's fair or balanced or whatever, I'm just saying changing repairing scv priority will have greater consequence than simply "fixing" the brokenness of not being able to target scvs. Making scvs that useless at repairing during a fight effectively makes any strategy involving thors and bcs infinitely less viable, making those units less useful. Is removing strategy in a big way to help balance in a small way a good idea? Consider also that this makes scvs stronger in another way as part of an all-in. Bringing scvs and putting them on autorepair will suddenly start saving the units they're repairing being shot. In some scenarios, the damage they'd absorb with their high priority 45 hp would be greater than the amount of hp they could have repaired in some period of time, such that the all-in was more effective thanks to this change, or atleast just as effective. This isn't that big of a deal for something like a bc or a thor which is easy to right click, but this works for all mechanical units. Individual hellions are harder to right click. What if terran brings all their scvs, half of them told to attack, the other half told to repair? Or in a situation involving some splash damage, all the scvs told to repair, to suddenly get in the way of enemy units and be attacked with high priority while repairing eachother. By this point the scale of what you'd need to right click would involve giving 1-3 units at a time their own target, and manually avoiding overkill on every single unit. This is impossible for a human at certain numbers. Is that situation more desireable than a single thor being hard to kill without focus fire? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:30 Skeyser wrote: I might be crazy, but I'm pretty sure the green part of the tech lab lights up when it's upgrading. No, it always lights up. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:15 MindRush wrote: WOW, removing the initial ability of medivacs to transport and make it researchable is the most far-fetched, (yeah let's call it far-fetched), thing ever. I mean why should there be a unit that is just an air-healer? it makes no sense to make it look like the zerg mechanic (where your overlords can load/unload units only when u have a lair/hive) another common mistake is taking the overlord/warp prism/medivac trio and start comparing units to one another. this is not a game of unit1 vs unit2 vs unit 3 it's about terran vs zerg vs protoss. Taking a certain unit out of context and not talking of how the specific unit interacts with other allied and enemy units is WRONG. right now, zergs are domination in Korea and Asia in general. Look at how Sen is doing, CheckPrime, even our friendly neighborhood IdrA for that matter. Messing up with terran to balance some bronze level issues might cause some major balance blow at top-level play. So what if alot of terrans own in lower leagues? Protoss was OP in sc1:bw, and the D/D- divisions were full of protoss noobs. Once the level gets higher, the skill improves and nature takes it's course. He who does not learn from past mistakes is condemned to repeat them. Another point is the following: SC2:WOL is just a part of SC2 as a game. Looking back on SC:BW, is SC:original ballanced? Probably not. Is SC:BW balanced. Definitely the best RTS in that aspect. Even so, the same voices were yelling back in SC:BW that protoss is OP, the same voices that now yell terran is OP. Conclusion: The release version is not out for 2 months yet, and every1 assumes the game is figured out already, they make diagnostics about the state of the game and about race balance. We see interviews of players like Tester, Sen, Maka saying that they think a certain race is slightly favoured now. (they have HUGE understanding of the game). And then we see a bunch of n00bs who are silver league at most making a decisive verdict that a certain race is OP, backed up by more n00bs and their idiotic comments, and defended by some other n00bs who play that race in particular. When you lose to a certain race/build/opening at least keep your BM to yourself. Give it to your ingame opponent IdrA-style. My opinion is that a lot of people come here to discard their frustrations, make false assumptions after losing, when they don't think clear. These people don't really care about true balance. They just want their race stronger. PERIOD. Not that i am playing terran, but did any1 mention how hard is to micro MMM ball versus storms/collosi? Or to deal with those pesky ultralisks? Or to deal with fungal/banelings? Or to have your enemy move towards you, and if you steam they just retreat and you waste medivac energy? so on .................... Of course, if you a-move into a stimmed terran MMM ball and use no abilities you get owned. But then it's not you who blundered, it's the might of the terran overpowered ball. pretty sure it has been said many times in these forums that zerg is not dominating korea atm (lots of graphs and what not) haven't the exact links but just search zerg dominance or something into the search function. and why are sen,cehck and idra doing so well. simply because they are great players. with great mechanics and a great understanding of the game. its not that terran is dominent in lower levels. its that players with the mechanics of lower level players are reaching higher levels of play just by playing terran race and using maybe 1-2 simple build orders (happens also with protoss 4 gate) because its so efficient and much harder to stop as other races then it is to pull off. it results in the T players sky rocketing to mid-top diamond. and often you see such players when their push fails they often dont know what to do after that and end up losing wuite conviningly. hmm we have a bunch of n00bs saying that the game is imbalanced. yes infact their are alot of lower level players who think something is imbalanced, but its easy to determine the legitimate claims and the ridicullus (such as spine crawler being OP for being able to move) but at the same note we have plenty of high level players putting in their two pieces of why a certian race is UP or OP. (masterasia's thread for one, he was 5th best zerg in US when he posted it.) are you saying that he's a n00b and doesn't know what hes talking about? about your MMM troubles. yes it is hard using tier 1/1.5 units against late game units. damn All terran players should be able to beat every unit with that composition of MMM. honestly your complaining how hard it is to use MMM against storm, something DESIGNED to defeat such composistions? and colosus DESIGNED to deal splash damage to such composistions. and ultralisk as buggy as it is is DESIGNED to be a tank unit to get in your face dealing splash damage to your composition. and heaven forbid we decide to reatreat making a T player waste a "steam" that shouldn't be allowed at all! and any other race should not be able to A-move into Terrans A-move army's. people do not want certain races stronger then others, we want a balanced game so it is an enjoyable to watch E-sport. constantly seeing the same thing EVERY game that has Terran in it is no enjoyable. we want to see innovation, exiting micro battles that switch the momentum of the game. brilliant tech switchs at crucial times. OP raises some issues that are preventing said plays. sensor towers, with 2 of them NO drops can go on that will change the outcome of a battle, NO epic surprise flanks. with leads to a boring style of play. and SCV auto repair is by far the worst display of AI programming ever. they can hide behind a planetary fortress meaning focusing on them is impossible meaning that fortress wont fall. many problems with this game atm, but blizz is more concerned with battlecruisers needing a nerf of 2 damage! | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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fugimax
United States14 Posts
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro? This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game. My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote: Here's a thought: Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro? This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game. My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. | ||
micronesia
United States24664 Posts
On September 10 2010 09:52 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: So basically we have a cheap spammable tower from pretty much any time forward once you get past the early game that gives terran the ability to know when you're trying to outmaneuver them. They are supposed to be the slow race easy to outmaneuver and abuse their immobility but this does not work when they know it's coming without even having to spend scans. This was true in pvt in sc1. Why do you say this for sc2? Perhaps some terran strategies and styles make that statement too but it isn't really true in an overall sense. It basically comes down to whether or not tanks are being used and how many... and tanks are often used in small (or no) quantities. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
The exponential increase in damage output of ball armies of terran just overwhelm the zerg's square root function power of their armies. Illustration of my point would be: X = time interval of 3 minutes T: 2 ^ X Z: Square root of (5 * X). Doesn't take long for T to overwhelm zerg after early game. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote: Here's a thought: Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro? This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game. My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. well given past patchs, blizzard is more likely to nerf things then to buff them. then after their done nerfing they'll nerf some more. i think no one will argue that bringing zerg and protoss up to par with teran is a bad idea. its just for blizz its easier to nerf stuff already in the game, then it is to add stuff to make things better. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
I think auto repair is a little to easy and I also think techlabs could be changed.. but I think we are too far into the game to change who and what produces whatever. Do not forget this is not beta. The framework is there and has been published. The key is taking what they have done and balancing it without really changing the game. | ||
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RyuChus
Canada442 Posts
Make the drop capability of Medivacs an upgrade just like Zerg as they will be making these units to heal their army in a similar manner to zergs making overlords for supply. They are a necessary unit so why should they get drop capability for no extra cost. This would also require a tech lab on a starport initially in order to start drops. This- is the one thing I don't like about this thread. Few things. You upgrade it, but it's completely permanent, we have to make multiple medivacs, and zerg HAS to make overlords, so if you get the drop upgrade, every single overlord gets drop. You might as well, return the medics, and dropships. That is what you are trying to say, I don't really agree, with it. Do what you want. | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
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