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On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE.
IdrA is a better player than MorroW. His skill overcomes the imbalance to give him a higher win rate than other Zergs. This happens with other players such as DIMAGA, Sen, Cool and Check which is why you see Zergs in Pro-leagues.
Zerg is harder to play than Terran.
I've played both races; Zerg is much harder to play on a higher level.
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On September 10 2010 11:35 LuciferSC wrote:
I have no idea why u guys are QQing with balance.
Look at the current SC2 top leagues and tournaments.
I don't see Terrans dominating.
The game is balanced out well, no need for major fix or altering game play.
You're right; you have no idea.
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This started out as a IMBA thread claiming it wasn't an IMBA thread and its simply degenerated into an exchange of illogical proposals for terran nerfs.
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On September 11 2010 02:15 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. IdrA is a better player than MorroW. His skill overcomes the imbalance to give him a higher win rate than other Zergs. This happens with other players such as DIMAGA, Sen, Cool and Check which is why you see Zergs in Pro-leagues. Zerg is harder to play than Terran. I've played both races; Zerg is much harder to play on a higher level.
Similar to how in BW terran requires the most apm?
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I agree with a lot of this... medivacs are so powerful right now and offer the terran a lot of drop possibilites 'for free' (in the sense that no upgrade for that is needed)
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As far as the sensor tower is concerned I think an easy fix would be to still have the units show up on the minimap but only while the sensor tower is selected. In this way the terran will still have great value for their investment while offering other races a chance to beat the tower.
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How about a modification to sensor towers - instead of scanning the entire area around them, they scan a designated area within a certain range?
This would introduce strategy in the form of choosing which areas the sensor towers should scan, and open up decisions for opponents with regards to where they should attack(since they could see the chosen scan area).
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On September 11 2010 02:18 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 02:15 Fantistic wrote:On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. IdrA is a better player than MorroW. His skill overcomes the imbalance to give him a higher win rate than other Zergs. This happens with other players such as DIMAGA, Sen, Cool and Check which is why you see Zergs in Pro-leagues. Zerg is harder to play than Terran. I've played both races; Zerg is much harder to play on a higher level. Similar to how in BW terran requires the most apm?
Let's leave BW and apm out of this.
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Very good OP- particularly about medivacs. Making dropships in BW meant a sacrifice of resources so it required a firm decision by the player. Making medivacs in SC2 however is pretty much a foregone conclusion when the player is going bio most of the time. This means drops become too much of an easy extra option for terran players when compared with the other races because they already have the drop tech provided with the medivacs.
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On the techlab versatility: I think since Terran is a race based on efficiency and modularity, it is okay to have such versatility on the labs, however I'd like to see an increase in their cost/build time. Marauders are no longer this core unit because they nulify a threat (roaches, 4warpgate attacks), they are a core unit because it is extremely powerful and mobile. As a P player and former Random player, I can say that you always need to be defensive vs. Terran. There is no way to tweak your BO so that you're the aggressor early on, without either risking an all-in or putting yourself at a great disadvantage.
P has a good timing attack with gateway units due to Guardian Shield, but that is easily countered with BO (ghosts) or micro (earlier timing attack, marauder-stim sniping of the sentry, or even just map presence to force the Guardian shield too early).
Now the roaches have been nerfed, and zealots will be nerfed too; instead of nerfing reaper build time, nerf the techlabs. Just tweaking build time/ cost would be great, but even more creative solutions, i.e. increase the build time for tech labs and reactors on other buildings than factories, would be awesome
Make medivacs only capable of carrying light units early on. As a plot excuse, say that they can't work on the same engines the previous dropship worked on because of all the medical apparatus. Also make them slower at that. Make an upgrade for the engines at the starport techlab for them to carry armored units and increase movement speed to what it is today.
This means that eraly on they can carry SCVs, MULEs, marines, reapers, hellions, ghosts. Later on they can carry marauders, tanks, thors, vikings.
The speed nerf means the bio army's mobility is reduced by a little bit, and also constitutes a very slight nerf to stim, since it'll leave the marauders a bit more vulnerable.
The Sensor Tower is easy to balance by tweaking constants. Make it more expensive, increase its build time, reduce hitpoints, reduce range or require hi-sec auto tracking to increase its range, MAKE CONTAMINATE DISABLE THEM TEMPORARILY, all these should work... -_- sorry for the allcaps. Just a kind rage scream from a fellow protoss player to our beloved ugly-looking bretheren against these small short-lived humanoids that wear armor and wield projectile-based weaponry.
Autorepair SCV priority has been since the beta with the "PF issue"... I wonder Why hasn't Blizzard fixed this yet! Seriously, this is insanely stupid and should've been fixed in the beta!
The only possible reason I can think up for this is that Blizzard wants us to use the Camera panning buttons in game.
Actually, the whole auto-targeting system is a pretty huge failure by Blizzard... Drive a single search for valid targets in a way that the closest one is chosen to be attacked. Simple to program, requires less undescribed rules in the game, gives more control to the player, helps rising the skill ceiling without raging lower skill levels (since those battles will be decided by who macroes better anyway).
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10387 Posts
On September 11 2010 02:18 trevf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 02:15 Fantistic wrote:On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. IdrA is a better player than MorroW. His skill overcomes the imbalance to give him a higher win rate than other Zergs. This happens with other players such as DIMAGA, Sen, Cool and Check which is why you see Zergs in Pro-leagues. Zerg is harder to play than Terran. I've played both races; Zerg is much harder to play on a higher level. Similar to how in BW terran requires the most apm?
Actually BW Pro Zergs have higher APM than BW Pro Terans on average :o
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Because sensor towers make such a pivotal difference in 90% of terran games right?
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On September 11 2010 00:47 arnath wrote:
Explain to me how tech lab/reactor swapping is any different than zerg (for example) having a Roach Warren and a Spire and being able to make a lot of mutas and eventually tech switch back to roaches.
On September 11 2010 01:06 TMTurtle wrote:
]Zerg has to spend time building both tech buildings. Any time during this, it can be easily scanned/scouted and reveal the Zerg's build plans.
On September 11 2010 01:02 eu.exodus wrote:
keep in mind that in mid game all unit producing buildings will have attachments on them. A (decent) terran player will (if hes scouting properly) build what he needs to counter you
There is an excellent idea hidden here that I will start to exploit in my own play.
"Standard" build orders, in an attempt to maximize efficiency, create only the buildings you need. Therefore, if a Z builds a spire the nature of efficient build orders will dictate that mutas are coming. I think Terrans are just more clever in their tech switches.
Personally, I think I will start building things like a roach warren and only build lings, or put up a spire and go roach/ling with the opportunity to switch it up later. If terran can mess with my head why can't I do the same?
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On September 11 2010 02:43 Kazang wrote:
Because sensor towers make such a pivotal difference in 90% of terran games right?
Because sensor towers is are the only thing he mentioned in his OP right?
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On September 11 2010 02:42 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 02:18 trevf wrote:On September 11 2010 02:15 Fantistic wrote:On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. IdrA is a better player than MorroW. His skill overcomes the imbalance to give him a higher win rate than other Zergs. This happens with other players such as DIMAGA, Sen, Cool and Check which is why you see Zergs in Pro-leagues. Zerg is harder to play than Terran. I've played both races; Zerg is much harder to play on a higher level. Similar to how in BW terran requires the most apm? Actually BW Pro Zergs have higher APM than BW Pro Terans on average :o
Lies!!! Im pretty sure terran required the most but w/e i got no proof
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oh great it's THIS thread again...
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I think those are decent points. However I do have on problem...
Make a toggle on scvs so that when they are repairing they are a higher priority unit similar to the one for when they are attacking, this is mostly because of the fact that it can be difficult to focus fire units behind a thor, under a battlecruiser as opposed to a Medivac which already is a high priority unit but flies above everything else and is inherently easier to target as needed.
The problem here is if the SCVs are going to be taking more fire they will need more hp or they will die the second the fighting starts.
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On September 11 2010 02:57 Mayerling wrote:I think those are decent points. However I do have on problem... Show nested quote +Make a toggle on scvs so that when they are repairing they are a higher priority unit similar to the one for when they are attacking, this is mostly because of the fact that it can be difficult to focus fire units behind a thor, under a battlecruiser as opposed to a Medivac which already is a high priority unit but flies above everything else and is inherently easier to target as needed.
The problem here is if the SCVs are going to be taking more fire they will need more hp or they will die the second the fighting starts.
Why is it a problem if SCVs die fast? They're not combat units. Repair should be, in a dominating fashion, an out of combat ability rather than some "repair in combat and be unkillable" tool.
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Pretty sure I disagree with #1 entirely. If a 3rax bio T wants to switch to Raven Banshee Marine, it's not the addons that are expensive, it's getting a 150/100 factory and then a 150/100 Starport x2. This is significantly more difficult than Zerg's putting down a 150/0 Roach warren. It's somewhat comparable to a Protoss going Twilight Council -> Templar or Stargate. Zerg remains the king of tech switches.
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On September 11 2010 02:59 MangoTango wrote:
Pretty sure I disagree with #1 entirely. If a 3rax bio T wants to switch to Raven Banshee Marine, it's not the addons that are expensive, it's getting a 150/100 factory and then a 150/100 Starport x2. This is significantly more difficult than Zerg's putting down a 150/0 Roach warren. It's somewhat comparable to a Protoss going Twilight Council -> Templar or Stargate. Zerg remains the king of tech switches.
I think it's more that if your fast Banshee gets scouted, you can remove the tech lab from the starport and put it on the factory and you no longer are commiting to that fast Banshee. If a Protoss goes for a super fast Stargate and it's scouted, that Stargate is a Stargate and will remain pretty useless because defenses will be put in place. Likewise if a Zerg player's Spire is scouted adequate defenses can be put in place.
Terran are the only race that do not have to commit to a tech path because of the tech lab.
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