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On September 11 2010 00:43 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. 24 Races have currently qualified for the Ro32 in GSL. 12 Terran, 8 Protoss and 4 Zerg. The racial matchups thus far: TvZ: 2-2 ZvP: 3-3 PvT: 2-8 I really think the facts are against your arguments. 
It's actually TvZ 3-1.
Idra is the only player to have won a ZvT series. In the other matches MaruPrime, TLO and Nexliveforever all won their best ofs.
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Also with the sensor towers. When one goes up...EVERYONE knows exactly where it is. Its not hard to run in with a covert unit and snipe it out.
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On September 11 2010 02:57 Mayerling wrote:I think those are decent points. However I do have on problem... Show nested quote +Make a toggle on scvs so that when they are repairing they are a higher priority unit similar to the one for when they are attacking, this is mostly because of the fact that it can be difficult to focus fire units behind a thor, under a battlecruiser as opposed to a Medivac which already is a high priority unit but flies above everything else and is inherently easier to target as needed.
The problem here is if the SCVs are going to be taking more fire they will need more hp or they will die the second the fighting starts.
That's the whole point...
On September 11 2010 03:20 Mayerling wrote:
Also with the sensor towers. When one goes up...EVERYONE knows exactly where it is. Its not hard to run in with a covert unit and snipe it out.
What covert unit? The roach that moves slow as sin and can't go up cliffs?
Or the DT which is more fragile than chinaware?
Nevermind the fact that one turret nullifies either of these "sniping" options.
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On September 11 2010 03:20 Mayerling wrote:
Also with the sensor towers. When one goes up...EVERYONE knows exactly where it is. Its not hard to run in with a covert unit and snipe it out.
Yeah when it's inside an enemy base with missile turrets and other units protecting it it's a piece of cake to take it out!
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On September 11 2010 03:18 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:43 Cranberries wrote:On September 11 2010 00:39 LuciferSC wrote:
Don't mean to start a flaming war, but just want to point out that you are not providing any supporting facts yourself.
Zerg isn't necessarily more difficult to play than Terrans and neither is Idra necessarily a better player than Morrow.
Look at it this way - if Terrans are clearly OP, u wouldn't see nothing but Terran on Pro-leagues.
Look how Zerg and Protoss are doing on GSL. They're doing FINE. 24 Races have currently qualified for the Ro32 in GSL. 12 Terran, 8 Protoss and 4 Zerg. The racial matchups thus far: TvZ: 2-2 ZvP: 3-3 PvT: 2-8 I really think the facts are against your arguments. It's actually TvZ 3-1. Idra is the only player to have won a ZvT series. In the other matches MaruPrime, TLO and Nexliveforever all won their best ofs.
Yeah, it looks really grim for the zerg on the tourney front. There was no Zerg in the semifinals of the last thousand Go4Sc2, Viking, Zotac, Competo cups etc. Only 2 zergs out of 16 in the german EPS (one being darkforce) and one of the two will probably be kicked out.
I think the problem is, that zerg lacks cool abilities. Be it passive abilities like AoE, slow, cliffwalk, etc or active abilities like stim, blink or charge. It doesnt help either that zerg only has the infestor vs ghost/raven and sentry/HT. I mean the bread and butter units of zerg do fine if you simply compare the stats (aside from the marauder  ), but if you throw in blink,forcefield, stim micro the scale tips. Now roaches have this unique burrow move, but it is expensive, more or less easily counterable and it has poor synergy with hydras and lings. Burrowed roaches = no meat shield.
That would be my 2 cents on balance. (Sorry for possible derailing of the thread).
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I can understand some points. Overall, I feel the direction of the OP is an early game. You talk a lot about terran being hard to scout and judge. This is really an early game thing. Sure a roach warren means roaches. but 15 minutes into the game, seeing a hydra den, a roach warren, a spire, infestor cavern, anything is possible. If 15 minutes into the game, and you see 6 barracks 1 factory and a port, I don't think you'll be getting surprised by any BCs. Of course that's an extreme example. I don't think we can act like walling-off as terran is something new. I also don't think you can compare every race as though it were apples to apples. Blizzard's made a game for 3 different races with 3 different styles. But on to more defined points:
The techlab animation has to be a bug, but maybe it isn't, I think blizzard's meticulousness should have caught that. Lets also not pretend like you can build from the barracks/factory/starport while the thing is building. Additionally, lets not act as though all of the terran buildings can win a game without tech labs. Protoss may have to tech harder with initial costs, but a barracks isn't really just 150minerals, it's 150+50/25. That adds up over time. Not to mention that Terran have THREE sets of upgrades, so while you may consider the cost of teching structures low, the cost to upgrade those units is not. Protoss has 1 set of upgrades for its entire ground army. Additionally as the game goes on when the protoss can switch with its warp to a new batch of units to hard counter something else.
The medivac as a dropship, well, we know medics have been around. If it wasn't the medivac, and back to the old academy, you'd 2 marauder 2 medic rushes that I'm sure would break the game. I suppose can say they heal a little too much, but not by that much. They only heal one unit at a time, can only be produced 1 at a time (without a reactor, which then restricts a unit producing building to 2 units) And every investment in a medivac means 1 less tank or potentially a thor. I can't agree with your comparison about the warp prism. I've RARELY seen a warp prism being used to warp. It's impractical to do actual drops as toss. r.i.p reaver (most fun drop in the game), but when you have a 12 warpgates and a mobile pylon with a 3 second warp in, I don't really feel bad that you're investing in a warp prism that while it may not "drop" units, it allows for more supply to be transferred to a point on the map, than terran.
The sensor tower issue is interesting, There are some real good spots to put them to get a lot of vision. Considering that creep, when used, is basically a maphack (ok, exaggeration), I don't really feel bad about a sensor tower that costs 100/100, isn't cloaked, and doesn't spawn more, while also revealing its location and the coverage, that big of a deal. Reducing it's range probably isn't a bad idea, I think most people would be ok with about a 25-33% reduction. Overall, I feel it's a pretty seldom used building. They can't fight back, so you CAN attack them, and if a terran really wants to place so many, they can't defend ALL of them.
Auto-Repair. Repair has been part of the game, auto-repair has indeed not. I once lost to a thor being autorepaired by EVERY scv (the epitome of all-in!) and was baffled by how strong it is. But as I said, if weäre discussing this in the vacuum of the high APM player, those scvs will be R+Clicked onto a thor, so I donät know, maybe I just haven't seen it abused enough.
I respect your comments Raelcun, mainly because you didn't complain about the marauder! No really, you know what you're talking about but I think that there's still a larger issue at work.
I think a lot of this really comes down to the fact that terran has far more openings that are a threat to the other 2 races, mentally you may always feel behind the 8ball vs a terran until after the first push, or the first 10 minutes of the game. Additionally, we can't forget that terran has an enormous investment in infrastructure if they want to be able to keep up with larvae spawn of multiple hatches/queens, or the quick warp of warpgates as the game goes on. While some might say terran is imbalanced, I say the other 2 races are underbalanced (really just zerg), and then its early on.
Additionally I feel that terran's gameplay hasn't changed all that much, while zerg and protoss have considerably changed, it's not really a surprise they were picked up faster. Protoss players are starting to get comfortable with playstyles so I think terran/protoss are closer than they are far. It's zerg that I think is lagging behind the most in certain areas.
But hey, with the new patch coming out we'll have to see how it goes. With seige mode going the way of the 250mm cannon, marauders will be used perhaps a little more often in favor the tanks.
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On September 11 2010 02:45 Servius_Fulvius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 00:47 arnath wrote:
Explain to me how tech lab/reactor swapping is any different than zerg (for example) having a Roach Warren and a Spire and being able to make a lot of mutas and eventually tech switch back to roaches. Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 01:06 TMTurtle wrote:
]Zerg has to spend time building both tech buildings. Any time during this, it can be easily scanned/scouted and reveal the Zerg's build plans. Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 01:02 eu.exodus wrote:
keep in mind that in mid game all unit producing buildings will have attachments on them. A (decent) terran player will (if hes scouting properly) build what he needs to counter you There is an excellent idea hidden here that I will start to exploit in my own play. "Standard" build orders, in an attempt to maximize efficiency, create only the buildings you need. Therefore, if a Z builds a spire the nature of efficient build orders will dictate that mutas are coming. I think Terrans are just more clever in their tech switches. Personally, I think I will start building things like a roach warren and only build lings, or put up a spire and go roach/ling with the opportunity to switch it up later. If terran can mess with my head why can't I do the same?
You can but it'll cost you ressources. Same for P. It doesn't for terran.
I've seen builds which incorporate a Roach Warren and Glial Reconstitution as a "just in case" tech for defence, aiming at building roaches only in the late-lategame. But these builds tend to become too inneficient as time goes by (similar to how you absolutely NEED an Observer as that Robo Bay finishes when going for colossi)
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I totally agree with the auto repair thing. It's so annoying to try and target those small SCV's when they are repairing something huge like a Battlecruiser or Thor.
I also agree with the tech lab. The tech lab automatically opens almost all of the barracks tech units. If they have tech lab yes but also I don't know bring back the academy, other races won't have such a problem wondering what units the Terran player is going.
But if there had to be one change, definitely change the auto repair, its stupid, its not WarCraft, StarCraft we have to do everything by hand/hotkey, no easy way out please.
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Okay but repairing also cost resources. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere yet.
Shield regen does not cost a protoss player resources and neither does auto heal for the zerg. That sounds balanced to me
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I think that # Issue 3 # is not fair for Terran players, Protoss and Zerg have a lot of ways to drop units without making drops... Think about that, you can make a pylon and use an observer to gain vision and warp units or you can use stalkers to blink into terran bases, and you have colosus. And Zergs have borrowed roaches and niddus for dropping, who are also efective ways of "dropping" units in enemys base.
Well, its true that terrans have drops "cheaper" than tos and zerg, but zergs ya another ways to do the same at a very low mineral cost.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On September 11 2010 03:42 Mayerling wrote:
Okay but repairing also cost resources. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere yet.
Shield regen does not cost a protoss player resources and neither does auto heal for the zerg. That sounds balanced to me
NO!
You know what, I rather have the repairing scv give Terran player minerals for each hit-point repaired but having higher priority, the way it is now is absurd...
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On September 11 2010 03:42 Mayerling wrote:
Okay but repairing also cost resources. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere yet.
Shield regen does not cost a protoss player resources and neither does auto heal for the zerg. That sounds balanced to me
Shields and HP also don't regenerate at something like 150hp per second...
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until i read this, i thought the sensor tower was a terran made xel naga tower
.....
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For the people saying Zerg is "dominating" in Korea, here are the most recent Korean tournaments:
Star2gether Invitational:
1. Maka (T)
2. Rainbow (T)
3. Inca (P)
WTA #1
1. TheStC (T)
2. Cool (Z)
3. Hannibal (T)
WTA #2
1. TheStC (T)
2. Ensnare (T)
3. Mio (T)
WTA #3
1. TheStC (T)
2. Zenio (Z)
3. Z
Star2gether Siege
1. Tester (P)
2. Ensnare (T)
3. Maka (T)
Zerg WAS dominating in Korea during the early stages of the beta, now they're getting smashed there, just like everywhere else.
If you check the Team Liquid tournament database no Zerg has won a tournament since release except Dimaga, who has won 3 online open cups (and he played Terran in the final of one of them). By comparison there have been 12 different Terran tournament winners since release.
Zerg has become almost a non-entity in competitive play.
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On September 11 2010 03:51 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 03:42 Mayerling wrote:
Okay but repairing also cost resources. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere yet.
Shield regen does not cost a protoss player resources and neither does auto heal for the zerg. That sounds balanced to me Shields and HP also don't regenerate at something like 150hp per second...
This. Comparing shields and Zerg regen to repair is insane.
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I have to say, you have articulated this point far better than I have been able to. My main issue isn't that Terran imbalanced, because they aren't, but more that the learning curve and skill requirement to play the race in general is extremely low.
As stated, the ability to simply swap tech paths in a matter of seconds makes the idea of making a plan and adapting it to the situation at hand absurdly easy, as well as the idea that if a non-meching Terran player feels like dropping at any given moment, he can. At no point does it have to be a part of his long-term plan. I think that the idea of making the drop mechanic of a Medivac a research is a very elegant solution.
Sensor towers are an interesting development, and I really never saw why Blizzard implemented them. I suppose the idea was to give the race with (arguably) the least mobility a heads-up to harassment, but I feel that that defeats the purpose of making Terran so immobile in the first place. I'm not sure I agree with the position of locating units only in the fog, and not on the minimap. It may solve the issue for lower level players, but it's really not that difficult to hotkey your production facilities and stare at the fog whilst you macro. The concept of a toggled ability may solve part of the issue. I feel that somehow making the area it reveals a targeted ability, perhaps a 90 or 180 degree view range, rather than the full circle of vision may make the tower more like a manageable building, supporting your idea of making some of these concepts require more APM to use properly.
As for the auto-repair, I feel as though at no point should one unit (or building) be able to kill a small army simply because it is being repaired. At the very least, I agree, you shouldn't have the option to make it automatic.
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I definitely agree with the sensor tower part. They really make for boring games because they eliminate any sort of creativity with abusing Terran immobility. If Terran goes for an immobile mech army, they shouldn't be protected from the type of mobile attacks that counter that strategy.
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This article covers many problems with Terran, that are not caused by a unit.
Brilliant write up.
I dont think comments on specific units would fit to this article. Also I like your solutions so far alot. Concerning the Techlab I dont see anyway to solve the problem without introducing an "Academy"-like building. Terran need commit somehow to a techroute.
Also I totally agree on the "techswitch"-thing. As a Zerg player I have the advantage to change my Units relativly quick (Spirebuilding time makes me...its just not quick build  ). But so does the Terran, if not quicker. We dont need so many producing facilities, thats okay, but thats not always an advantage. To many players ignore the downside of that. If you loose a Hatchery to one of those ridicolous Marauder drops in like 5 seconds you lost instantly 1/2 or 1/3 of your producing capability(midgame). Not to mention, that its by far harder to keep them at full efficiency.
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Does no one else think that the reason Terran is so strong is just because of how strong and cost effective their units are?
People are saying that Zerg can drop just as easily as Terran can and in some ways, yes, that's true. However, have you ever seen Zerg drop a handful of units into someone's base and take down key tech structures and main buildings in seconds? Of course not because Zerg units can't do that. The same applies for Protoss (aside from DT which cost a ton to make). However, we all know that Terran can just drop a handful of Marauders or Hellions and totally destroy your tech or econ if you aren't paying attention for one second. If Zerg actually does drop enough to pull something off like that, they'd have to drop a lot of units which usually just means that if the opposing army just attacks the Zerg's natural and main and "base trade", the Terran or Protoss will win. However, when Terran does that, it usually doesn't even matter because their units are so strong and cost effective that if you counter attack them when they drop your main, you can still lose that fight. Even if you win, if you don't win by a wide margin, you'll still be down one base while their econ will still be fine and you'll just lose slowly.
So you can talk about all the little things all you want and say that it's not "imbalance" that's at the heart of the issue. But honestly, if Terran units were just simply nerfed then we wouldn't even care about all these little things (the game would just be closer to balanced). If Marauders didn't hard counter Roaches so bad then who cares if you made Roaches because you thought they were going Reapers? If Marauders couldn't kill buildings in seconds, then there'd be more time to respond to drops and Medivacs being such an easy option wouldn't be such an issue. Yes, the things that the OP talked about need some attention but that's really not the main problem with Terran. Everyone who's honest with themselves knows that. Their units are just too strong. Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Thors, Tanks, Medivac... they're all too strong (not in all situations, just too strong in the situation that they're used).
In the end, it's not about comparing races and comparing who can do what. It's about game design philosophy. When you play any game really, going on the offense has it's advantages and it's disadvantages. The same applies for being on defense. But for Terran, no matter what they do, they have the advantage. They have the strongest and most cost effective offense, the strongest and most cost effective defense, bases that defend themselves from counter attacks, and every option that they would ever need to counter everything that come across. Protoss and Zerg on the other hand, seem like much more well thought out races with the whole advantage/disadvantage philosophy in mind.
This is like playing a game when you're still young and make up rules. Everyone knows what I'm talking about. Playing against Terran is like playing against a kid who can make up the rules. Sometimes you can win by tricking them or something like that, but next time, they'll have something to counter it because they can just do anything they want in the game without any real consequences.
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Medivac is a major major problem
In BW, to have 4-5 Dropships you had to invest a significant amount of minerals, we are talking 800-1000 minerals on a bunch of units which did NOTHING but transport, that was all they did.
In addition to that if you went with the usual 1-2 Dropships full of units you had to spend a few seats in that dropships for Medics at least 2 to make your drop more durable, so you had less firepower because of that.
And ofcourse you did not have Marauders, so sniping buildings was not really a option, drops were used mainly to kill workers.
Today all of that is gone out of the window, Medivacs are naturally a part of the MMM ball, healing, transport, stim pack, conc, tanklike life of Marauders all adds up in such a sinergy that the other 2 races cannot rival.
Zerg gains the first initiative of the match once and if they ever get Ultralisks which are very very strong, but they are so late in the game. In BW the TvZ match was very good back and forth, once T got Medics they had initiative, once Z got Lurkers they took it back, then T gets SV with Tanks and now they have it, then Dark Swarm and it swings again, that was exciting to play and watch.
Toss does better because of possibilities like Colossi or Templars, which is why PvT is a pretty balanced and fun match in SC2.
And thats what Z needs, they need a unit that requires 1 tech but in numbers can "counter" the MMM ball, that unit should have been Hydras but their slow speed off creep + Conc makes that confrontation a massacre waiting to happen.
Ideally a nice group of Hydras and Lings/Blings/Roaches should do better than MMM, forcing the Terran player to go back to his base and add 1 unit that would tip the battle in his favour but that never happens until Ultralisks and whats where issue is.
And it wouldnt be a issue if Mutalisks were as good as they were in BW, but again here they are so easily destroyed by Thors or mere Turrets that the MMM ball can continue their march towards that Hatchery while that 1 Thor decimates the Mutas
EDIT: I hate to bring Lurkers back into it because everyone and their mother has allready brought them up alot of times before, but a unit like that is desperatly needed. Banelings are not a upgrade to Lurkers in the grand scheme of things even if they are suppose to be "similar" they sadly are not.
That is where problem may be with Zerg, the unit that was suppose to pick up the responsibility of the Lurker is not doing a good job of that, if the Lurker was in, instead of Blings, Zerg would gain initiative, gain the ability to do cliff harrasment, and push the Terran player back to get Ravens and some tanks to deal with them, MMM would not be enough to last through out the entire game.
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EPT
