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On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture.
I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me.
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On September 10 2010 11:52 TyrantPotato wrote:
well given past patchs, blizzard is more likely to nerf things then to buff them. then after their done nerfing they'll nerf some more.
i think no one will argue that bringing zerg and protoss up to par with teran is a bad idea. its just for blizz its easier to nerf stuff already in the game, then it is to add stuff to make things better.
Well, 1.1 has both buffs and nerfs in it. But ... they're focusing on tweaking values, not gameplay ... which seems lazy/safe.
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On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me.
Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran).
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So the terran problems ARE a balance issue?
i however do favour the CD on sensor towers, the proposal seems very reasonable for the ability it provides. a separate animation for upgrades been made in techlab seems good too. i hope they do get implemented. as another poster said, the points you make are very valid but the thread title is very misleading.
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What's this joke, Terran the race with the most ability to "tech switch" ? Are you serious ? When you have alreayd 10 raxes, no matter what kind of tech switch you might need you're stuck playing with a largely bio composed army.
The race actually able to tech switch like wtf are zergs. Once a spire, hydra den and roach warren are down, at any point of time it could be ANYTHING coming out of the next larva set. When you see a terran with 10 raxes, hey guess what, he's going to make marauders and marines, and that'll be what you'll have to worry about.
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On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran).
Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically.
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The medivacs from the alpha build of SC2 were suppose to only be dropships. The Healing was an upgrade you can research turning the Dropship -> Medivac
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LOL@making medivacs have to upgrade to drop. P is already at least even with T in PvT, that would just completely ruin the matchup.
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On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me.
I know several casuals IRL who are 1000+ diamond playing protoss and could barely keep D level on ICCUP, so this is just ridiculous. I mean, it helps that I was able to teach them fundamentals and continue to help them, showing them a few build orders I'm working on every week or so, but anyone can find someone to help them get improve.
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On September 10 2010 12:08 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. I know several casuals IRL who are 1000+ diamond playing protoss and could barely keep D level on ICCUP, so this is just ridiculous.
Edit: Read your post wrong. Not sure what you're trying to say..
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On September 10 2010 12:05 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran). Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically.
Why reduce the APM for TWO races when you can increase the APM for ONE.
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On September 10 2010 12:09 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:08 PJA wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. I know several casuals IRL who are 1000+ diamond playing protoss and could barely keep D level on ICCUP, so this is just ridiculous. But that's because Protoss is OP. 
That obviously contradicts your previous statement.
EDIT: Since apparently you're confused by my previous statement: I added that they were only D level in ICCUP to give an idea of how casual they were. Obviously a B+ level BW player could casually play SC2 and be 1200 with any race, that says nothing about balance or unplayability as a casual player.
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Drops from terran can be easily defended by zerglings on creep/infestors/banelings etc and tends to backfire alot to the terran. When we look at the TvP MU, if going for bio the medivac is 100% NEEDED to win the game. The Protoss army destroys the bio army in a head on fight, so terran has to be able to drop several places at once to get the protoss off track and harass him as much as possible. And as we know, protoss can warp in units where they want to and that can destroy a drop quite fast with storm and stuff. If you made drop an upgrade or whatever they I think protoss would just dominate a bio army mid game.
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On September 10 2010 12:10 EliteAzn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:05 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran). Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically. Why reduce the APM for TWO races when you can increase the APM for ONE.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not..
Does anyone really believe that managing a queen spweing larva is an *enjoyable* game mechanic? At least with chronoboost it lets you boost research/builds, but larva spewing is literally busy work...
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Agree on all counts, ESPECIALLY the tech lab. Sensor tower and medivac need a nerf, too, though.
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On September 10 2010 12:06 Musiq wrote:
The medivacs from the alpha build of SC2 were suppose to only be dropships. The Healing was an upgrade you can research turning the Dropship -> Medivac
I like this idea a lot. Would allow for more choices, plus a minor nerf.
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On September 10 2010 12:12 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:10 EliteAzn wrote:On September 10 2010 12:05 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran). Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically. Why reduce the APM for TWO races when you can increase the APM for ONE. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.. Does anyone really believe that managing a queen spweing larva is an *enjoyable* game mechanic? At least with chronoboost it lets you boost research/builds, but larva spewing is literally busy work...
Larva injection is a measure of skill: someone who is a pro will have a near 98% success with timings, and as a result will be able to field more units than a Zerg player who doesn't have a near 100% 25 energy larva injection rate. Likewise, a Protoss player who randomly Chrono Boosts anything will be significantly disadvantaged when playing a Protoss with a solid understanding of how many Chrono Boosts should be used on Warp Gate research, Probes, Thermal Lance, Colossus etc. Sadly this excludes Terran. Any Terran player will call down Mules, and even at high level play if a Terran gets 150~ energy before using Mules (because he's waiting for scans) he's not going to be any less disadvantaged than a Bronze Terran who does the exact same thing, but just because he's forgotten.
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On September 10 2010 10:05 Dog22 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:03 MegaBUD wrote:
Medivac cost 100/100... and are light units with low hp... compare that to toss warp in...
I WISH medivacs were light... They also have 150 hp while warp prism has 100 HP and 40 Shield (correct me if I'm wrong) edit: Oh and medivacs have 1 armor as well, warp prism has 0
Warp prisms are also only made of Balsa wood.
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On September 10 2010 12:16 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:06 Musiq wrote:
The medivacs from the alpha build of SC2 were suppose to only be dropships. The Healing was an upgrade you can research turning the Dropship -> Medivac I like this idea a lot. Would allow for more choices, plus a minor nerf.
But again, this would delay healing drops by maybe a minute or two ... is that really enough? Further, most drops I see involve a bunch or marauders pwning a nexus/hatch/cc and then hoping back into the medivac ... the role of the healing isn't key to the strat that many cry is OP..
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On September 10 2010 12:12 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:10 EliteAzn wrote:On September 10 2010 12:05 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran). Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically. Why reduce the APM for TWO races when you can increase the APM for ONE. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.. Does anyone really believe that managing a queen spweing larva is an *enjoyable* game mechanic? At least with chronoboost it lets you boost research/builds, but larva spewing is literally busy work...
thats one problem atm with the game. blizz added these macro mechanics. terrans mule allows for longer 1 base play, which is a positive for terran, protoss chrono boost, allows whatever the protoss decides to be reasearched or built much faster, which is a positive for protoss.
queens larva inject allows more larva, which currently are NEEDED to survive. miss an injection and you can lose the game right there.
its not so much that the macro mechanics are apm intensive, its just one of them can decide games. whilst the others dont.
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EPT
