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On September 10 2010 12:05 cArn- wrote:
What's this joke, Terran the race with the most ability to "tech switch" ? Are you serious ? When you have alreayd 10 raxes, no matter what kind of tech switch you might need you're stuck playing with a largely bio composed army.
The race actually able to tech switch like wtf are zergs. Once a spire, hydra den and roach warren are down, at any point of time it could be ANYTHING coming out of the next larva set. When you see a terran with 10 raxes, hey guess what, he's going to make marauders and marines, and that'll be what you'll have to worry about.
Have you tried playing as Zerg? Tech switching incurs a large cost since the tech is both obvious to a scouting opponent and time consuming. Revealing your tech path means a terran opponent can easily counter with a tech switch. Add to that the versatility of the Terran army and you have less reason to tech switch.
IF a specific Zerg units required a specific terran unit to be massed in order to defend, you would have a point.
Lings --> marines
Roaches --> marauders
Banelings --> marauders + stim to spread
Muta --> marines + pop up some static defense
Ultralisks --> marauders
Corruptors --> marines
Broodlords --> vikings, which if you are making medivacs, you already have this facility.
Infestors --> ghost, which is already viable against ultras/mutas/corruptors and simply require 1 extra building, in reality you could probably just kill them when they pop up to cast their spells since they are so damned large and easy to spot.
About the only unit which requires a tech switch is Hydras, which being slow off creep means that you can just stim and run away until you get tanks out on the field, or even easier, Hellions to support your marine/marauder ball. Hydras are also obvious since the opponent would require a creep highway to even implement it giving you time to mass up a larger army since hydras are so damn pricey and have such low HP while having unupgraded range equal to that of a marine, and upgraded range equal to that of a marauder.
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An addition to point number 4:
Planetary Fortresses are SO hard to take down with scvs repairing because you need to individually target like 20 workers (or sometimes more like 40 because it may be the last mining base that the terran will put a PF on) and if you are attacking from below (the mineral patch is above the PF) then it is extremely difficult to click on the scvs in the first place.
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Why not make Medivacs have 4 slots instead of 8 until you upgrade them instead of making drop an upgrade? Really Medivacs kinda blow as healers because they cost so freaking much gas for the amount of HP they can actually heal.
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I prefer the idea of a speed upgrade for Medivacs and possibly adding a longer delay to connecting/disconnecting tech labs/reactors. 5-10 seconds maybe. Would add a penalty to randomly moving stuff around like there isn't right now.
Edit: Additionally, I wish the solution was to add cool things to the other races instead of killing Terran. They really feel like the only complete race in the game. Protoss and Zerg seem to have more holes and less fun abilities(Gimmicks?).
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On September 10 2010 13:17 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Why not make Medivacs have 4 slots instead of 8 until you upgrade them instead of making drop an upgrade? Really Medivacs kinda blow as healers because they cost so freaking much gas for the amount of HP they can actually heal.
but you see in an MMM army, only two units cost gas. marauders and medivacs
other then upgrades theres no where to put your gas so you can still get a large number of medivacs without a problem.
and 100 gas for a unit that heals 13 hp per second is a fair trade.
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Well said Raelcun. This could solve alot of problems and bring back the fun fighting against Terran, instead of the feeling of "damn, their stuff is better at what it does than mine."
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On September 10 2010 12:12 fugimax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:10 EliteAzn wrote:On September 10 2010 12:05 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 12:01 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:59 fugimax wrote:On September 10 2010 11:50 Cranberries wrote:On September 10 2010 11:48 fugimax wrote:
Here's a thought:
Why not leave Terran the way it is an tweak the other races? Terran is the most accessible race. It's fairly straightforward, you don't need crazy APM to just keep up, and it's downright fun to play. Why not lower the need for "macro APM" on the other races and focus on making APM really shine in micro?
This would let pros do amazing things and let the casuals play all three races. I don't play either Zerg or Protoss because the necessity of downright annoying actions (queen larva spewing, chronoboost, etc.) makes me not interested in those races at all. They are not accessible to me, really. I wouldn't have fun playing the game.
My guess is that Blizzard probably agrees with most of this given their previous statements on accessibility and leveling the field in certain regards.. If you reduce the skill level in a game that's supposed to be an esports because of it's uncapped skill level I'd argue pretty strongly it's counter intuitive and bad, overall, for the game's progression: both as an esports and as a business venture. I'm not saying reduce the skill level ... I'm saying redistribute the skill into micro. Most people complain that SC2 is not as micro intense as SC1 ... ok, then take the annoying macro APM required and push that into micro. You can still make a game that has "no skill cap" ... but don't make the fundamentals annoying and inaccessible. As a casual, playing anything but Terran would just be stupid for me. Do you know how APM works, or what it means? If you reduce the APM needed to macro, and increase the APM needed to micro, you haven't reduced the APM: you've just made it easier for Terran (as their macro is already easier) and made it harder for Z/P (who already have to micro more than a Terran). Yes, I know what APM is. I'm saying to reduce the amount of macro APM needed for Z/P, basically. Why reduce the APM for TWO races when you can increase the APM for ONE. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.. Does anyone really believe that managing a queen spweing larva is an *enjoyable* game mechanic? At least with chronoboost it lets you boost research/builds, but larva spewing is literally busy work...
make the spawn larva autocast?
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I'm honestly surprised sensor tower made it to release. It's such an obviously broken idea.
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One of the more interesting aspects of how terran units are so strong have a combination of two things, the lack of scoutability before the units come out, and the lack of projectiles.
To explain the lack of projectiles i'll make a list.
The Following ranged Terran Units have no projectiles:
Marine range 5 (combat)
Reaper range 4.5 (harrass)
Ghost range 5 (6?) (support)
Hellion range 6 (combat/harrass)
Siege Tank range 6 (13) (combat)
Thor (vs ground) range 7 (combat)
Viking (vs ground) range 5 (combat)
Auto Turret range 5 (support)
The Following ranged protoss units have no projectile:
Sentry range 5 (support)
Archon range 2 (combat)
Immortal range 5 (combat)
Collosus range 5 (9) (support)
Void Ray range 5 (support)
Interceptor range 10 from carrier (support)
The Following ranged zerg units have no projectile:
Roach range 3(combat)
Infested Terran range 5 (support)
Now, what does no projectile mean? two major things,
1. No projectile means immunity to Point Defense Drone. simple enough.
2. No projectile means that a unit has no overkill. That is the AI instinctly knows how to perfectly distribute fire within range. This allows auto attack to be the most efficient distribution of damage against an enemy army within range. This also is negated by large unit radius combine with short range, excluding archons (vs ground) and roaches from benefitting from this except in unusual circumstances.
Total no overkill units for terran:
8 total, 4.5 combat, 2 support, 1.5 harrass
Total no overkill units for protoss:
5 total, 1 combat, 4 support
Total no overkill units for Zerg
1 Total, 1 support.
This just shows that the Mechanics of the AI favors Terran compared to the other two races by a large large margin.
This being said i think that zerg is the best race (i play zerg) because of the synergy within the units. However unit for unit terran is by far stronger and benefits the most by the system in the game.
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Tech labs having an upgrade animation would be boss.
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I wish Blizzard read posts like these, all indicates that they don't, I'm getting so impatient about the changes...
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Oh shoot you just reminded me that sensor towers actually exists.
Forgot about those guys just because they don't exist in BW
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On September 10 2010 10:01 EvasivE wrote:
with the insane amount of options and most terran players very rare deviation from the norm is what makes people not care for or respect terran players.
Agreed. I have to admit, I haven't really been having many issues as zerg vs terran lately. I would agree scouting should be an issue. But it hasn't been because 90% of the terran I have played in the last few weeks go 1 of 2 strats. Reaper-> MMM or hellions -> mech. The terrans that beat me as of late are normally the ones that do something out of the norm like some raven play or ghost action.
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On September 10 2010 13:25 PrinceXizor wrote:
The Following ranged zerg units have no projectile:
Roach range 3(combat)
Infested Terran range 5 (support)
Total no overkill units for terran:
8 total, 4.5 combat, 2 support, 1.5 harrass
Total no overkill units for protoss:
5 total, 1 combat, 4 support
Total no overkill units for Zerg
1 Total, 1 support.
This just shows that the Mechanics of the AI favors Terran compared to the other two races by a large large margin.
This being said i think that zerg is the best race (i play zerg) because of the synergy within the units. However unit for unit terran is by far stronger and benefits the most by the system in the game.
Actually roaches very much do overkill. You can test it out yourself in a unit editor. They even overkill when you do stop move attacks.
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The tech lab has an animation.
Stop whining about it and use your eyes.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 10 2010 12:57 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 12:38 fugimax wrote:
Have you seen high-level nydus usage? It's insane. Additionally, if they're "weak and expensive" that can be fixed.
Zerg is supposed to be this race that has you constantly feeling like there's a bug in your bed and you can't find it. It keeps biting you and then his 200 friends show up. It just doesn't play like that right now.
Spreading creep is also a mechanic that could be tweaked. Instead of tumors, maybe unit presence pushes creep out (as you hold regions of the map with large numbers of units, creep starts to form / connect). Nydus needs some tweaking. I have seen several of the better examples of recent pro nydus play and ... I kept thinking that if they had a muta for every worm they could have a-moved and won. If they were cheaper (50 gas?) for the worm and either came in faster or was burrowed while coming in they would see more use. I would really like them to be burrowed until they pop as it would make pylons ineffective at scouting for nydus. It also means a nydus network would force turrets.
I definitely agree with this. You can support spamming nydus if you're on a good number of bases, but otherwise it's better to just get a bigger army...
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On September 10 2010 13:36 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 13:25 PrinceXizor wrote:
The Following ranged zerg units have no projectile:
Roach range 3(combat)
Infested Terran range 5 (support)
Total no overkill units for terran:
8 total, 4.5 combat, 2 support, 1.5 harrass
Total no overkill units for protoss:
5 total, 1 combat, 4 support
Total no overkill units for Zerg
1 Total, 1 support.
This just shows that the Mechanics of the AI favors Terran compared to the other two races by a large large margin.
This being said i think that zerg is the best race (i play zerg) because of the synergy within the units. However unit for unit terran is by far stronger and benefits the most by the system in the game. Actually roaches very much do overkill. You can test it out yourself in a unit editor. They even overkill when you do stop move attacks.
I think he's talking about infested terran.
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Yet another "ohh Terran is IMBA" thread in Raelcuns series. Its the frigging MAP SIZE which give Zerg a hard time and NOT one of the units or abilities or costs of Terran units or buildings. Even Tasteless and Artosis talk about "oh there was a Protoss autumn map season in BW" and say that this has existed in BW already; sadly they FAIL at coming to the conclusion that its the same for SC2 and keep on whining about Terrans being IMBA just like Raelcun here.
There are two things which "nerf the Zerg" and both are caused by tiny maps from Blizzard:
- Early rushes cause havoc in the economy of the Zerg. With larger maps (or at least starting locations which are further apart) that would not be a problem, not even a Protoss proxy Gate rush, because the Probe needs to travel as well.
- Immobility of Terran (and Protoss) armies can NOT be exploited by going around it, because there are too often only one or two close pathways to get from one base to the other. Prime examples are Steppes of War, Metalopolis and Kulas Ravine. No space to surround an enemy in the middle means any mobility advantage is impossible to use. A much better example of a map is Delta Quadrant, but that one has other problems.
Please Raelcun ... dont try to overanalyze the game and try to find "the solution" in some detail. The real problem is much larger than units or buildings (but sadly not large enough). I hope the very rare words of wisdom from Tastosis help convincing you.
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On September 10 2010 13:41 Xog wrote:
The tech lab has an animation.
Stop whining about it and use your eyes.
yes it does have an animation. for both training a unit and researching in the tech lab.
and its the same for both
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On September 10 2010 13:42 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 13:36 teamsolid wrote:
Actually roaches very much do overkill. You can test it out yourself in a unit editor. They even overkill when you do stop move attacks. I think he's talking about infested terran.
Actually yeah i did mean infested terran because roaches are so large comparitive to their range they cannot effectively make choices to target the best possible targets. this is also true of archons and why they are both removed from the list of no overkill units.
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EPT
