Done.
The rest of the game can be rebalanced slightly around that.
Forum Index > Closed |
Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Done. The rest of the game can be rebalanced slightly around that. | ||
JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
I wrote about this: + Show Spoiler + Repairing. Scvs, the workhorses of T can repair structures and mechanical units. Multiple scvs at once can repair the same target. Viability/usefulness in combat: Very high SCVs repair automaticly everything what they can, also can be targeted to repair what you think is the most important. They dont run out of energy, as they only need a bit of resource to do the repairing. Problem: Absolutely yes, definetly, for sure. Why? 1. First, are the Terran mech units that weak in combat to need a bonus like this? I leave it up to you to decide, next: 2. SCVs do not run out of energy. 3. SCVs are not expoused to attacks. In fact while repairing Thors they might be overshadowed thus fully protected by Thors. Also units do not attack automacticly the scvs, as their priority will be always the Thor. A thor surrounded with scvs is immune to lings, as they will run around him. If you target fire the scvs 1 by 1 you waste a lot of shots and time. Let's see you have 10 roaches selected if you right click 1 scv, some of the roaches wont reach it, some will waste their shot, as it only takes 4 to kill ans scv. You canot possibly expect a Zerg that during a battle he selects his roaches 4 by 4 and right clicks the scvs which are barely visible, while the T sits with his hands on his keyboard and mouse and watches how his healed units rape everything. 4. SCVs can also reapir each other, or be helaed by medavacs while repairing. 5. SCVs are not fighting units. They are workorses as probes or drones. Do you see Probes or Drones pulled to attack? Well i saw once on Scrap Station when the P already lost made a last attack, complete failure btw. Never seen drones attacking. Ok, some sort of early cheese yes, probes and drones can be pulled when you 9 pool or 2 gate proxy or w/e, nothing game braking. Do you see SCVs pulled to attack? YES. Have you lost to that? I surely do every day. Let it be either a pre-meditated cheesy allin from 1 base, or a desperation move from the T to try to end the game when he s falling imminently behind. It works like a charm. To give you an example i recommend Morrow's last game vs Idra, hellion, marauder, scv allin. The zerg has lings and crawlers. The marauders deal with the static D, however the hellions wont kill enough lings without preigniter, but there are the scvs screwing up the pathing and repairing the hellions, making Morrow a richer Swede. (Props to him, btw, i think he's an excelent player, i really do). Or to stick with the IEM, there was a game, not broadcasted on the big stage, where Dimaga was beating a terran which almost came back, a Thor with scvs annihilted a smaller army on his own. The T lost, as Dimaga outplayed him and had a big advantage already. there are many allins, tank-marine-scv, marauder-thor-scv, i even saw medavac brought, a 60 APM newbie beat me twice with an allin like that, but i guess very good players can react properly and fend that off, however i'm not sure, and we still have the issue, that once T feels he's losing he can pull his workers and make his army a lot stronger. Neither of the races can do this, or anything similar. 6. Repair makes cliff abuse even more broken. We see how Zergs thumb down LT against T or just go for an allin every time. The cliff at the natural is killer. If u can get enough mutas out, to take down a thor, preferebly demaged by a crawler or queens maybe. Now the T can just easily hop up some scvs with his medavac OR call down a mule or 2. I really could go into details till midnight how strategies with repair-abuse work, but i m sure most of you have done/experienced those. How to counter this? As i said, scvs are hard to kill Splash would work, although if you have a bling army you send those in with lings roaches w/e, they will surely take out most of the scvs, however even if 3-4 remain they do a hell of a job, and the T can just call down mules. I guess storm works better. | ||
teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On September 10 2010 14:56 Rabiator wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 14:34 teamsolid wrote: On September 10 2010 14:23 Rabiator wrote: On September 10 2010 14:12 teamsolid wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 10 2010 12:36 Wargizmo wrote: It comes down to this, if you could rate all the races in various areas: -mobility -scouting -ability to deny scouting -tech switching ability -economy -ability to control space -detection -number of viable allins/cheeses -hard counters available -harrassment -early defense -late game defense -ability to dominate air. etc etc then Terran would rate as an A or B in every single area, whereas the other races are a mixed bag. In short Terran doesn't really have any defined weaknesses so to speak, they're either strong or at least decent in any given situation you can throw at them. That's why I agree with the OP in that nerfing this unit or that unit isn't the problem, the race overall just doesn't have weaknesses to balance out its strengths So true. I'll try to rate each of the 3 races in these areas (in my opinion/experience): T -mobility B (MMM very mobile, tanks/thors not) -scouting A -ability to deny scouting A -tech switching ability B (tech labs/reactors) -economy B (MULEs) -ability to control space A (three 9+ range units) -detection A -number of viable allins/cheeses A -hard counters available A (almost every Terran unit hard counters something) -harrassment A (reaper, hellion, banshee, medivac) -early defense A -late game defense A (planetary, sensor towers) -ability to dominate air A (vikings) Z -mobility A (hydras are the only glaring exception) -scouting early game F mid-late game A -ability to deny scouting F -tech switching ability A -economy A -ability to control space F -detection B -number of viable allins/cheeses F (only baneling bust or 6 pool) -hard counters available D (only banelings/infestors for light units, corruptors for massive air) -harrassment B (mutas are good) -early defense F -late game defense F -ability to dominate air B (muta and corruptors are good in large numbers) P -mobility B (charge and blink) -scouting early game F mid-late game A -ability to deny scouting A -tech switching ability D (most tech paths require key buildings) -economy B (weakest economy of the 3 races, though still decent due to ability to chrono nexii) -ability to control space B (sentries are amazing at this, also colossi are good for this) -detection B -number of viable allins/cheeses A -hard counters available B -harrassment D (really only phoenixes and warp prisms) -early defense A -late game defense B (warp-ins and can make cannons) -ability to dominate air D Thanks for this totally useless and 100% subjective and in any case irrelevant list of assumptions .... It it totally irrelevant that Terrans have "ability to dominate ground A" when you are attacking from the air, but then you probably believe in "hard counters" solving all your problems with certain units. Not even close to 100% subjective, as most of them I gave my reasoning or are extremely obvious to anyone who plays/watches the game. Yes, the ability to dominate ground I kind of added, which was unnecessary. Any other point you'd like to disagree with? Anyways, you don't even own the game yet you always seem to have so much to say in balance topics. The point is as made by the original poster... that Terran barely have any disadvantages to speak of as a race on the whole. Terrans DO have quite a few disadvantages: 1. They HAVE TO build a mix of units much more than other races. Sure Stim-Marauders are awesome, but they excel only if they are coupled with a Medivac [healing] AND Marines [anti-air, anti-Immortal]. As a tight ball they are especially VULNERABLE to Psi Storm and Fungal Growth. Marauders and Marines are both RANGED and thus they "take the same space", which is a clear disadvantage when faced with area spells or attacks. Protoss can work with Blink Stalkers as a group and only when you have an army made of pure stalkers (supported by 1 Observer to get sight up the cliffs) does it work well enough. Even if Protoss get a mixed army they have Zealots and Stalkers at their core and these "separate" nicely on the battlefield to reduce the vulnerability to area attacks. For Zerg it is the same with Zerglings/Banelings for melee range, Roaches for short range and Hydras for long range. For Zerg you can be effective with only Speed Zerglings due to the speed difference between Speedlings, Roaches and Hydras. 2. Terrans also have NO MELEE UNIT to abuse any splash damage from opponents, but then the only race where your own splash damage hurts you is Terran. I would call that a definite disadvantage. 3. Immobility. Everyone rages about MMM being too effective (I think that Marauders are too effective and need to lose Stim), and yet they cheer about a nerf to Siege Tanks? That will only give you more MMM "dropship and your Hatch is gone" play. The immobility is there, BUT it is neutralized by the small sizes of the maps. Try hiking a Thor from one base to the other on Scrap Station - the long way - and it will take more than a minute. If there were paths to run around him a few Zerglings could just run to the Terrans base and attack it while the "big boy isnt home". Its dead easy ... the MAPS are the cause and not the units. [see my post above] 1. Oh no, Terrans have to build 3 different units to have a well-rounded army that can take on any force in the game? If you made ONLY speedlings and banelings, you'd be toast against any kind of air or mech play, which is why you need the mutas, so again three units for a mix. Protoss stalkers are a bit unique, simply due to their high HP and blink ability but are still far stronger in combination with colossus/HT/sentry support. Otherwise P does needs a mix of units, e.g. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker, zealot/immortal/HT, stalker/sentry/colossus, etc, etc. Pretty much bunk, since every race needs a mix and Terrans are not special in this regard. 2. Terran is imba against Terran. Right....... 3. Immobility is probably the one and only weakness a Terran army has, and can be completely avoided by simply not going mech. In which case Terrans now have the most mobile army in the game. | ||
sadyque
Romania251 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:12 nitdkim wrote: Add in Negative Damage! SC1 dragoon 20 damage -10 to small We currently have Damage + bonus to light/armored What we really need is Damage - reduction to light/armored armor We already have that.... Marauders do 20 dmg and 10 dmg reduction to light units...Just like dragoons actually. | ||
LSGamer
United Kingdom247 Posts
My thoughts, addons. I like the idea of an individual animation to refine a bit more, 1 colour for upgrading and 1 for tech addon req. units. I thought someone brought up stalkers with banshee or raven, but (and I play toss) it would be too easy for me if I knew exactly which unit it would be earlier than it popping. And instead of getting a mix of robo/zealot only i'd still get some stalkers. My original idea would be another addon, for reapers and banshees which when on a factory does the job of a tech lab. I don't know about cost, that's for Blizz or you guys. Not only are sensors cheap and fast, it gives mech play a huge warning that im about to abuse their mobility! Seiged up at your XN on LT? I can't drop cause he'll be there. not to mention WP's quite frankly suck, and if it lives a few shots from a MT then theres no reason for it to stay, it doesn't heal. Back to sensors, they mentally funnal me into attacking where they want me to, I know I can feign a drop and attack the front, but we all know how that goes. Besides apm to apm, not equal. Medivacs. Enough of these (6) and you've got a free stim, and I've got a lost nexus later on in game or even mid and wet pants. When the terran moves towards my base past terrain, for example cross on metalopolis, the medivacs will arrive earlier because they fly and my army cannot punish them fast enough because of that armor and speed. Also due to their prioritys, all my stalkers will be attacking them, while mm stims and I've lost everything. To make them comparable to the others, give them - armor, then the upgrades are needed for drops. SCVs. Not something I've heard of before but links to the underlying problem of Terran having more for less (APM) T for stim, and now repair(R?) However those cheesy builds I might be able to get away with holding off as zealots cant hit a BC >.< But the balance of APM is hugely unfair. SO I agree wholly. Again, great post. Idea for WP, allow them to be shield chargers? reason for FB in PvP too | ||
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
If the Barracks lights are not glowing but the tech lab is still glowing green then its being in use, although if a unit is being built out of the barracks it will glow green too. Also, the engineering bay's gears on the sides move when it is upgrading, and the armory is the armoy, starts dancing around giddy when its being used. | ||
leve15
United States301 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:43 sadyque wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 15:12 nitdkim wrote: Add in Negative Damage! SC1 dragoon 20 damage -10 to small We currently have Damage + bonus to light/armored What we really need is Damage - reduction to light/armored armor We already have that.... Marauders do 20 dmg and 10 dmg reduction to light units...Just like dragoons actually. dragoons with stim pack just came to my mind and made me chuckle | ||
hdkhang
Australia183 Posts
On September 10 2010 14:39 Rabiator wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 14:05 hdkhang wrote: On September 10 2010 13:43 Rabiator wrote: Yet another "ohh Terran is IMBA" thread in Raelcuns series. Its the frigging MAP SIZE which give Zerg a hard time and NOT one of the units or abilities or costs of Terran units or buildings. Even Tasteless and Artosis talk about "oh there was a Protoss autumn map season in BW" and say that this has existed in BW already; sadly they FAIL at coming to the conclusion that its the same for SC2 and keep on whining about Terrans being IMBA just like Raelcun here. There are two things which "nerf the Zerg" and both are caused by tiny maps from Blizzard:
Please Raelcun ... dont try to overanalyze the game and try to find "the solution" in some detail. The real problem is much larger than units or buildings (but sadly not large enough). I hope the very rare words of wisdom from Tastosis help convincing you. Yet another Rabiator "it's all about the maps" post. And my reasoning is wrong, because ... ???? [I really would like to know] Nothing has changed with the influence of maps. Why else do you think that Zerg have so much success on Scrap Station? Because its a huge rush distance and they do not get harrassed as efficiently on the map as on other much smaller maps. Here are two threads on TL which give DATA on the topic: Rush distance comparison EU Diamon map-specific Race win-% Desert Oasis has the biggest [ground] rush distance by far, BUT the natural expansion there is wide open and can be killed easily. Since Zerg need a good economy more than the other races they are screwed. Blistering Sands and Scrap Station have the longest rush distances, what a coincidence that Zerg have the biggest success on these maps. The rush distance is not all, the mobility/immobility of the races SHOULD have an influence too, but a few tanks on Steppes of War can control the center and even though Zerg can beat that sometimes it doesnt mean it is fair. Zerg SHOULD be able to surround the enemy and be able to get the Banelings into the MMM ball from the side so they get the Marines and not the Marauders in front, but that isnt possible on most maps. Only Delta Quadrant has a really open center, but there are different issues with that map due to the number of cliffs which are accessible for Reapers and Blink Stalkers very easily and which create a "backdoor through a solid rock". Please ARGUE your own point of view next time. I have given my data and where are yours? The data you used to build your conclusion is not the problem, the problem is your conclusion is an oversimplification. Lets use a car analogy. Three cars, a small sports car, great in coners but has poor max speed. A muscle car, great on straights but poor in corners. The third car is an allrounder, neither great or bad at either. So we build some tracks, one track is basically an oval, the muscle will dominate. Another track is filled with twists and turns and very few places to open up the throttle, the sports car wins. A third track has a bit of both and here they all do relatively the same. The allrounder maintains a reasonable pace beating the muscle in corners, but losing on straights, and losing to the sports car in corners but winning on straights. The muscle loses to both in corners but beats out both in the straighter sections. Likewise the sports car loses to both in the straights but beats both in the corners. So you say, GREAT! The solution is simple, just make sure there are only ever tracks which have an even distribution of twists/turns as well as straights. In other words - the ideal map. It will solve all the balance issues no problems. But there is a problem. The problem is assuming that all the cars have equal opportunity to shine and that ones weakness in one area is compensated for by it's strength in another, or that it's mediocrity in one area is offset by it's lack of any real weakness in any other. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:27 Floophead_III wrote: Easy way to fix terran: Marauders no longer have stim. Done. The rest of the game can be rebalanced slightly around that. I like how you totally go against the OP's point with zero evidence whatsoever. | ||
TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:10 ZlaSHeR wrote: You can tell if a tech lab is upgrading.... If the Barracks lights are not glowing but the tech lab is still glowing green then its being in use, although if a unit is being built out of the barracks it will glow green too. Also, the engineering bay's gears on the sides move when it is upgrading, and the armory is the armoy, starts dancing around giddy when its being used. but you cant tell if he is just building a unit. or building a unit AND upgrading at the same time. | ||
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 10 2010 15:07 omnigol wrote: My problem with just blaming the maps is that If you look at BW the races have options for breaking and holding entrenched positions on cliffs and chokes(Defilers lurkers, reavers). BW speelots also seemed better at storming a defensive position. Not to mention friendly fire and overkill from BW siege tanks. But In SC2 the options for breaking chokes seems much more skewed than it was in BW. And terrans position has much improved; better turrets, 9 range vikings, point defense drone, planetary fortress, and obviously much better seige tank AI. Lurkers arent really good at storming a defensive position, are they? I can agree with you on the Defiler and the Reaver, but SC2 has got different options. Roach / Infestor burrowed movement is a nice example and if you have an opponent who "doesnt do his homework" you can break through easily. If the map is a tad bigger you can easily go around a choke with a Nydus worm [spawned anywhere NOT in reach of units that can kill it] or a Warp Prism / Mothership-recall. Covering everything on a large-huge map with detectors / turrets isnt possible and that is good. With the current map size it is relatively easy, because maps are small and bases (3rd, 4th, 5th, ...) are close together so turtling units can cover most of the endangered area or react quickly enough. This way the immobility doesnt matter. On small maps the only option against a turtle is to "break" him and that is bad. Defensive play should be viable, but there should be options to outmaneuver it. A "containment" is a viable and used strategy in BW, but how many times have you seen that in SC2? Hardly any time. The siege Tank AI is not an issue IMO, because in BW people didnt cluster 12 siege tanks in one spot, but rather spread them out in groups of 2-3 tanks. That way opponents get into range of different groups at different times and the "dumb firing" of the BW-AI is made smarter. Please stop whining about that, because it doesnt matter. On small maps there is no room AND no incentive to actually spread them out. | ||
lololol
5198 Posts
Currently SCVs repair the most hp/second on Thors and BCs, which also have the most max hp. Instead they should repair the same hp/second on all units, less than the current on Thor/BC and more on the lower hp units. | ||
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:19 hdkhang wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 14:39 Rabiator wrote: On September 10 2010 14:05 hdkhang wrote: On September 10 2010 13:43 Rabiator wrote: Yet another "ohh Terran is IMBA" thread in Raelcuns series. Its the frigging MAP SIZE which give Zerg a hard time and NOT one of the units or abilities or costs of Terran units or buildings. Even Tasteless and Artosis talk about "oh there was a Protoss autumn map season in BW" and say that this has existed in BW already; sadly they FAIL at coming to the conclusion that its the same for SC2 and keep on whining about Terrans being IMBA just like Raelcun here. There are two things which "nerf the Zerg" and both are caused by tiny maps from Blizzard:
Please Raelcun ... dont try to overanalyze the game and try to find "the solution" in some detail. The real problem is much larger than units or buildings (but sadly not large enough). I hope the very rare words of wisdom from Tastosis help convincing you. Yet another Rabiator "it's all about the maps" post. And my reasoning is wrong, because ... ???? [I really would like to know] Nothing has changed with the influence of maps. Why else do you think that Zerg have so much success on Scrap Station? Because its a huge rush distance and they do not get harrassed as efficiently on the map as on other much smaller maps. Here are two threads on TL which give DATA on the topic: Rush distance comparison EU Diamon map-specific Race win-% Desert Oasis has the biggest [ground] rush distance by far, BUT the natural expansion there is wide open and can be killed easily. Since Zerg need a good economy more than the other races they are screwed. Blistering Sands and Scrap Station have the longest rush distances, what a coincidence that Zerg have the biggest success on these maps. The rush distance is not all, the mobility/immobility of the races SHOULD have an influence too, but a few tanks on Steppes of War can control the center and even though Zerg can beat that sometimes it doesnt mean it is fair. Zerg SHOULD be able to surround the enemy and be able to get the Banelings into the MMM ball from the side so they get the Marines and not the Marauders in front, but that isnt possible on most maps. Only Delta Quadrant has a really open center, but there are different issues with that map due to the number of cliffs which are accessible for Reapers and Blink Stalkers very easily and which create a "backdoor through a solid rock". Please ARGUE your own point of view next time. I have given my data and where are yours? The data you used to build your conclusion is not the problem, the problem is your conclusion is an oversimplification. Lets use a car analogy. Three cars, a small sports car, great in coners but has poor max speed. A muscle car, great on straights but poor in corners. The third car is an allrounder, neither great or bad at either. So we build some tracks, one track is basically an oval, the muscle will dominate. Another track is filled with twists and turns and very few places to open up the throttle, the sports car wins. A third track has a bit of both and here they all do relatively the same. The allrounder maintains a reasonable pace beating the muscle in corners, but losing on straights, and losing to the sports car in corners but winning on straights. The muscle loses to both in corners but beats out both in the straighter sections. Likewise the sports car loses to both in the straights but beats both in the corners. So you say, GREAT! The solution is simple, just make sure there are only ever tracks which have an even distribution of twists/turns as well as straights. In other words - the ideal map. It will solve all the balance issues no problems. But there is a problem. The problem is assuming that all the cars have equal opportunity to shine and that ones weakness in one area is compensated for by it's strength in another, or that it's mediocrity in one area is offset by it's lack of any real weakness in any other. You are not including one thing in your car analogy: Fuel efficiency. The allrounder probably has the lowest fuel consumption and it would win against both others in a race designed to challenge that feature of the cars. All I want to say is: Analogies only work so far ... please contradict my reasoning for "bigger maps = Zerg maps" [or rather "tiny Blizzard maps screw Zerg"] directly. Thank you in advance. | ||
lololol
5198 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:17 leve15 wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 15:43 sadyque wrote: On September 10 2010 15:12 nitdkim wrote: Add in Negative Damage! SC1 dragoon 20 damage -10 to small We currently have Damage + bonus to light/armored What we really need is Damage - reduction to light/armored armor We already have that.... Marauders do 20 dmg and 10 dmg reduction to light units...Just like dragoons actually. dragoons with stim pack just came to my mind and made me chuckle Dragoons with stim... and a slowing attack. | ||
vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
Oh, and fix the tech lab upgrade animation. | ||
kidcrash
United States620 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:34 lololol wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 16:17 leve15 wrote: On September 10 2010 15:43 sadyque wrote: On September 10 2010 15:12 nitdkim wrote: Add in Negative Damage! SC1 dragoon 20 damage -10 to small We currently have Damage + bonus to light/armored What we really need is Damage - reduction to light/armored armor We already have that.... Marauders do 20 dmg and 10 dmg reduction to light units...Just like dragoons actually. dragoons with stim pack just came to my mind and made me chuckle Dragoons with stim... and a slowing attack. Yeah stim is a really powerful ability do be giving away for 100/100. I say at least raise the price back up to 150/150 or remove it from the marauder all together... so much DPS, so easily obtained... | ||
link0
United States1071 Posts
On September 10 2010 16:34 lololol wrote: Show nested quote + On September 10 2010 16:17 leve15 wrote: On September 10 2010 15:43 sadyque wrote: On September 10 2010 15:12 nitdkim wrote: Add in Negative Damage! SC1 dragoon 20 damage -10 to small We currently have Damage + bonus to light/armored What we really need is Damage - reduction to light/armored armor We already have that.... Marauders do 20 dmg and 10 dmg reduction to light units...Just like dragoons actually. dragoons with stim pack just came to my mind and made me chuckle Dragoons with stim... and a slowing attack. And 55 less hp, no shield regen, slower movement speed, and can't shoot air. Otherwise, yea, the same unit. | ||
Dagobert
Netherlands1858 Posts
The main issue is the fact that that thor rush that BC rush that we were talkinga bout earlier while not inherently overpowered because it's a huge investment if it doesn't work they're screwed. What? And ye, those are reasonable suggestions. Doesn't fix the whole race, but it's a start. | ||
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