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On September 10 2010 10:33 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:30 taffy wrote:
So basically you're saying terran is overpowered, but the way to fix it is to make them click more?
Why not just fix the broken units?
Does calling it "overtuned" help you get more buy-in from terrans? In my opinion Imbalance and Overpowered and many other common terms means that the unit numbers are wrong. Yes my definition might not be completely correct but we're dealing with different things here. I'm not even accusing the terrans of having stupidly powerful units because I think the units themselves for the most part are fine with a few minor tweaks needed here and there the same as Zerg and Protoss. But some of their core mechanics need some work so all of this whining and effort going into fixing the marauder damage numbers etc etc could be fixed in more elegant solutions that would fix more of the units at the same time by changing some of these core mechanics. Why so confrontational? If you disagree with me spell out why.
I understand the idea behind the day-9 style "lets not call it imbalance".
When you want to sit down and work on your game, dwelling on unit balance won't help you. Problem solving will. When you take the same approach when using your community status to widely distribute an opinion about the state of the game, you risk adding legitimacy to this idea that everyone is just whining, and that things are pretty good the way they are. This has started to bother me.
Just call it what it is. It's not that big a deal.
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I don't mind the tech labs and auto-repair on thors much. What does bugs me a lot is how hard it is to kill a CC, even when you have a large army attacking it. And concussive shells, argh...
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Baa?21244 Posts
On September 10 2010 10:48 zomgtossrush wrote:
I actually rarely use sensor towers myself. I rely more on my game sense and unit positioning, and no its not a brag comment. If you watch alot of top level T, like gom stuff u don't see sensor towers until really late like 3 baseish since you need every once of resources towards units.
Sensor Towers are really a late game issue, but it becomes a very serious issue.
Especially with all the Terrans who've obviously never played Zerg suggesting that Zergs need to "flank, drop, nydus, etc. etc. etc. theorycraftedbullshit etc." even though all of that is completely nullified by a pair of sensor towers.
Also on tiny maps like Steppes of War, 2 Sensor Towers literally covers 2/3 of the map.
On September 10 2010 10:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
Raelcuns post hits the right idea, 5 seconds here or 2 damage there isn't going to do anything, the base of the issues need to be addressed, not every individual unit that benefits from them.
Can't agree with this more.
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I love this "l2p" argument we're having here.
How about this...LEARN TO DEAL WITH 4 POOL WHEN POOL WAS 150 MINERALS. See what I did there? Everyone who has ever played sc/bw for a significant amount know about how pool use to be 150 min when i came out and how it had to be patched later on b/c obviously it was unfair.
Now lets think about now. "Learn to play better zerg!" Seriously, think about what you just said there. Don't just talk shit and not back it up.
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well written! not so sure on all your suggestions to improve, but i definitely agree with your core points
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I agree that it's a combination of things that makes Terran the strongest race at the moment. I wonder if it's possible for Blizzard to make the necessary changes to the mechanics in a live environment? Something gives me the feeling they are trying to get by on small tweaks to numbers.
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I totally agree with all the OP's points, the medivac, i think needs a price increase, or (imo a better choice), a speed reduction to somewhere between 2.25 and 2.75 (it's current speed). It would really only effect drops, because mm moves at 2.25 (and you really want the medivacs in the back, in a fight, if i'm not mistaken)
The tech lab upgrades...i don't mind so much, a lot of the starport upgrades are rather unused. But they definitely SHOULD be visible. It's not even a total giveaway, since as the OP mentioned, a whole shit load of stuff can be researched through tech labs. But being able to scout banshee cloak is the most important thing, althought it could (AND SHOULD) be abused and faked against protoss.
The scv priority should really be fixed, it's an impedement of players' ability to micro against thors or PF and scvs.
Another problem i have, a general one, is that fighting units when a-moved will not move to engage enemy units if there are hostile buildings in range. This is a friggin unnessary pain in the ass! Watching your stalkers in pvp attack pylons as the game deciding battle rages on is retarded. When you go to box those stalkers and a-move them again, what do you know? They target the buildings again. You have to MANUALLY MOVE the stalkers in range of the enemy units, and then a-move. IMO this is almost as bad as the PF priority issue.
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On September 10 2010 10:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:48 zomgtossrush wrote:
I actually rarely use sensor towers myself. I rely more on my game sense and unit positioning, and no its not a brag comment. If you watch alot of top level T, like gom stuff u don't see sensor towers until really late like 3 baseish since you need every once of resources towards units. Sensor Towers are really a late game issue, but it becomes a very serious issue. Especially with all the Terrans who've obviously never played Zerg suggesting that Zergs need to "flank, drop, nydus, etc. etc. etc. theorycraftedbullshit etc." even though all of that is completely nullified by a pair of sensor towers. Also on tiny maps like Steppes of War, 2 Sensor Towers literally covers 2/3 of the map. Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
Raelcuns post hits the right idea, 5 seconds here or 2 damage there isn't going to do anything, the base of the issues need to be addressed, not every individual unit that benefits from them. Can't agree with this more.
Agreed with this, Sensor Towers are really strong, just under evaluated as it's rarely used by players, but they're really cheap and super effective.
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On September 10 2010 10:43 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:31 lu_cid wrote:On September 10 2010 10:26 avilo wrote:
I really do not like how nowadays threads are aimed at how to change the game, rather than play the game better =/
and btw, i applaud your slick naming of this thread to make it appear it's not a "balance thread." You name it "why it's not an imba issue" and then the thread is about things that appear imbalanced to you.
... This... We're not in beta anymore. I don't think the game can be perfectly balanced at the moment without changing it drastically. Maybe they'll balance it after an expansion is released. Wrong. This is an online game. Balance changes happen well after beta ends. Better yet, we're in the early stages of retail, the prime time for balance changes to be made. This is the time when Blizzard needs to be making core changes (like SCV auto-repair and creep mechanics) and leave these 5 second build time changes for later tweaks. SC2 is very well balanced, but there ARE issues and it makes little sense for Blizzard or anybody else to ignore them and act like they will go away. Raelcuns post hits the right idea, 5 seconds here or 2 damage there isn't going to do anything, the base of the issues need to be addressed, not every individual unit that benefits from them.
Balance discussion wouldn't be so contentious on the forums if blizzard wasn't sitting on their changes till who knows when. I get the feeling blizzard and leaders in the SC2 scene are being far too timid with balance issues, because of the huge amount of money, tourneys, sponsors, ect. And because of the ridiculous proprietary greed of a no-lan B-net 2.0, otherwise current tourneys could opt to use the same version of SC2 through-out the entire tourney simply by not upgrading if blizzard patches.
I've been a BW spectator since the first TSL on team liquid, I don't even own a copy of SC2. But I feel there are major problems with the game balance. Everyone wants to be polite and not be accused of "whining". And especially people involved in the business side want to encourage positive outlooks and say "players are barely starting to figure out whats possible in SC2; it's so new". But I really think the current state is pretty bad, and the fact balance discussion is such a source of contention is a symptom of that.
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On September 10 2010 11:08 omnigol wrote:
Balance discussion wouldn't be so contentious on the forums if blizzard wasn't sitting on their changes till who knows when. I get the feeling blizzard and leaders in the SC2 scene are being far too timid with balance issues, because of the huge amount of money, tourneys, sponsors, ect. And because of the ridiculous proprietary greed of a no-lan B-net 2.0, otherwise current tourneys could opt to use the same version of SC2 through-out the entire tourney simply by not upgrading if blizzard patches.
I've been a BW spectator since the first TSL on team liquid, I don't even own a copy of SC2. But I feel there are major problems with the game balance. Everyone wants to be polite and not be accused of "whining". And especially people involved in the business side want to encourage positive outlooks and say "players are barely starting to figure out whats possible in SC2; it's so new". But I really think the current state is pretty bad, and the fact balance discussion is such a source of contention is a symptom of that.
The smallest changes often make the most dramatic changes.
If a Stalkers damage was changed from 10/14 to 10/15 with +1/+2 on attack upgrades it would equally trade with a Marauder, in comparison to now where 1 Marauder beats a Stalker by a large margin until the +1 attack upgrade is researched by the Protoss player.
If a Zealots damage was increased by 1 per attack (total of 2) before upgrades a Zealot would 2 shot, instead of 3 shot, Zerglings before any upgrades rolled out and it would be horribly overpowered in the early game.
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this is stupid. Although i agree terran is imba I definitely don't agree with these reasons. For example the medivac rant - the races can be different and certain areas can be stronger than others but that doesn't make it imbalanced. You have to look at the races holistically. Protoss can warp in units anywhere with a pylon while terran has to walk there, but that doesn't mean there is a problem with protoss. Both warp in and the medivac increase the mobility of the infantry units to separate their role with those of the slower more powerful units like the siege tank.
tl;dr look at the design philosophy of the races, then look at your post
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A lot of the recent GomTV games, most notably the TvPs, have been dominated by 4-8 marauders in 1-2 medivacs being dropped into the Protoss main/nat/3rd whenever the protoss tries to move out.
Up until this point the Medivac's drop ability has certainly seen usage, but it's been relatively limited compared to its potential. It looks like we're finally starting to see Terran players making great use of it, and thus it'll be interesting to see what people make of your suggestion in a month or two, after everyone's seen many examples of Terrans abusing their incredible mobility with small medivac harassment (and doom drops) in countless games.
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On September 10 2010 10:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 10:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
Raelcuns post hits the right idea, 5 seconds here or 2 damage there isn't going to do anything, the base of the issues need to be addressed, not every individual unit that benefits from them. Can't agree with this more.
sadly they missed opportunity to do big changes in beta. its obvious that certain stuff is problematic and that the dynamics we had between the races in bw are mostly nonexistant.
but blizz seems to be very stubborn to force their starting model through.and i guess not much will change till the expansion hits.
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WOW, removing the initial ability of medivacs to transport and make it researchable is the most far-fetched, (yeah let's call it far-fetched), thing ever.
I mean why should there be a unit that is just an air-healer?
it makes no sense to make it look like the zerg mechanic (where your overlords can load/unload units only when u have a lair/hive)
another common mistake is taking the overlord/warp prism/medivac trio and start comparing units to one another. this is not a game of unit1 vs unit2 vs unit 3 it's about terran vs zerg vs protoss. Taking a certain unit out of context and not talking of how the specific unit interacts with other allied and enemy units is WRONG.
right now, zergs are domination in Korea and Asia in general. Look at how Sen is doing, CheckPrime, even our friendly neighborhood IdrA for that matter. Messing up with terran to balance some bronze level issues might cause some major balance blow at top-level play.
So what if alot of terrans own in lower leagues?
Protoss was OP in sc1:bw, and the D/D- divisions were full of protoss noobs. Once the level gets higher, the skill improves and nature takes it's course. He who does not learn from past mistakes is condemned to repeat them.
Another point is the following:
SC2:WOL is just a part of SC2 as a game. Looking back on SC:BW, is SC:original ballanced? Probably not. Is SC:BW balanced. Definitely the best RTS in that aspect. Even so, the same voices were yelling back in SC:BW that protoss is OP, the same voices that now yell terran is OP.
Conclusion:
The release version is not out for 2 months yet, and every1 assumes the game is figured out already, they make diagnostics about the state of the game and about race balance. We see interviews of players like Tester, Sen, Maka saying that they think a certain race is slightly favoured now. (they have HUGE understanding of the game). And then we see a bunch of n00bs who are silver league at most making a decisive verdict that a certain race is OP, backed up by more n00bs and their idiotic comments, and defended by some other n00bs who play that race in particular.
When you lose to a certain race/build/opening at least keep your BM to yourself. Give it to your ingame opponent IdrA-style. My opinion is that a lot of people come here to discard their frustrations, make false assumptions after losing, when they don't think clear.
These people don't really care about true balance. They just want their race stronger. PERIOD.
Not that i am playing terran, but did any1 mention how hard is to micro MMM ball versus storms/collosi? Or to deal with those pesky ultralisks? Or to deal with fungal/banelings? Or to have your enemy move towards you, and if you steam they just retreat and you waste medivac energy? so on ....................
Of course, if you a-move into a stimmed terran MMM ball and use no abilities you get owned. But then it's not you who blundered, it's the might of the terran overpowered ball.
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For tech labs what about specialization?
So if you make tech lab on barracks then lift for factory, it doesn't immediately recognize. There is a short period (equal to tech lab build time) where tech lab doesn't function. So you still don't have to pay for another tech lab but the build time is still there.
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Terran simply have too many options at the moment, in almost every respect. Though to be honest what I want more than Terran to lose those options is for the Protoss and Zerg races to get more options in turn. Protoss are almost there already, just due to the versatility and mobility offered by their Warpgates.
I'll say I like that Terran has a lot of options to play interesting games - That's good! I like seeing players have options and being creative with those options makes for fun and engaging play. What I don't like seeing is all of these interesting tactics Terrans have available being totally neglected in favor of "Build Marauders & Medivacs. Stim, kite, win." At least in the TvP matchup, I think just tweaking the Marauder would fix most of the issues.
Zerg has its own problems which probably can't be directly addressed without tweaks to Zerg units themselves, but at least if the Marauder were toned down some it might begin to address some of the issues in the TvZ matchup as well.
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i completely agree. particularly techlab and medivacs,
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Honestly this is well written, but I don't exactly agree.
someone mentioned the whole tech lab animation to me earlier, I always thought unless they're switching around it's very apparent which route terran is taking. Though I can see why people stress this, but a majority of players I've played play MMM because of it's quickness and sheer abilities, rather than mech which can't be dropped as easily nor healed.
Sensor tower looks like it could be OP on a bigger map with more wide open spaces, but I'd rather they remove this AND xel'naga watch towers (lol zerg flanking bais)
Medivacs are kind of up in the air for me, considering most of the time you can figure out a way to snipe them, (don't know how this works in very large army situations) I would expect this to not come as much of a factor as people are making it to be. One suggestion I could make is stop allowing medivacs to be double produced (make them tech lab only, why is the starport the only building that can produce two basic units with reactor?). Considering Marauders cost so little gas, terrans should think about making these and come out less often, rather than mass drops everywhere.
SCVs are kind of a no situation to me. They do heal thors quite a bit, and repair everything (taking skill off) but at the same time, I feel like they still cost money, they still can die, and most of all they're doing what blizzard wanted. Blizzard wanted to remove extraneous apm reqs for normalized play among more casual players (I think) so they didn't want people to have to use extra apm on stuff like repairing. I don't feel that scvs have broke any game I couldn't have won, or won any battles for the terran. I would say the ability to mule up after an allin might be deadlier considering they can afford to make tons of mistakes with macro, versus zerg (who I play) can't recover by a few clicks.
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On September 10 2010 11:15 MindRush wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
WOW, removing the initial ability of medivacs to transport and make it researchable is the most far-fetched, (yeah let's call it far-fetched), thing ever.
I mean why should there be a unit that is just an air-healer?
it makes no sense to make it look like the zerg mechanic (where your overlords can load/unload units only when u have a lair/hive)
another common mistake is taking the overlord/warp prism/medivac trio and start comparing units to one another. this is not a game of unit1 vs unit2 vs unit 3 it's about terran vs zerg vs protoss. Taking a certain unit out of context and not talking of how the specific unit interacts with other allied and enemy units is WRONG.
right now, zergs are domination in Korea and Asia in general. Look at how Sen is doing, CheckPrime, even our friendly neighborhood IdrA for that matter. Messing up with terran to balance some bronze level issues might cause some major balance blow at top-level play.
So what if alot of terrans own in lower leagues?
Protoss was OP in sc1:bw, and the D/D- divisions were full of protoss noobs. Once the level gets higher, the skill improves and nature takes it's course. He who does not learn from past mistakes is condemned to repeat them.
Another point is the following:
SC2:WOL is just a part of SC2 as a game. Looking back on SC:BW, is SC:original ballanced? Probably not. Is SC:BW balanced. Definitely the best RTS in that aspect. Even so, the same voices were yelling back in SC:BW that protoss is OP, the same voices that now yell terran is OP.
Conclusion:
The release version is not out for 2 months yet, and every1 assumes the game is figured out already, they make diagnostics about the state of the game and about race balance. We see interviews of players like Tester, Sen, Maka saying that they think a certain race is slightly favoured now. (they have HUGE understanding of the game). And then we see a bunch of n00bs who are silver league at most making a decisive verdict that a certain race is OP, backed up by more n00bs and their idiotic comments, and defended by some other n00bs who play that race in particular.
When you lose to a certain race/build/opening at least keep your BM to yourself. Give it to your ingame opponent IdrA-style. My opinion is that a lot of people come here to discard their frustrations, make false assumptions after losing, when they don't think clear.
These people don't really care about true balance. They just want their race stronger. PERIOD.
Not that i am playing terran, but did any1 mention how hard is to micro MMM ball versus storms/collosi? Or to deal with those pesky ultralisks? Or to deal with fungal/banelings? Or to have your enemy move towards you, and if you steam they just retreat and you waste medivac energy? so on ....................
Of course, if you a-move into a stimmed terran MMM ball and use no abilities you get owned. But then it's not you who blundered, it's the might of the terran overpowered ball.
Started out good, but that last paragraph almost killed it.
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On September 10 2010 11:15 MindRush wrote:
WOW, removing the initial ability of medivacs to transport and make it researchable is the most far-fetched, (yeah let's call it far-fetched), thing ever.
I mean why should there be a unit that is just an air-healer?
it makes no sense to make it look like the zerg mechanic (where your overlords can load/unload units only when u have a lair/hive)
another common mistake is taking the overlord/warp prism/medivac trio and start comparing units to one another. this is not a game of unit1 vs unit2 vs unit 3 it's about terran vs zerg vs protoss. Taking a certain unit out of context and not talking of how the specific unit interacts with other allied and enemy units is WRONG.
right now, zergs are domination in Korea and Asia in general. Look at how Sen is doing, CheckPrime, even our friendly neighborhood IdrA for that matter. Messing up with terran to balance some bronze level issues might cause some major balance blow at top-level play.
So what if alot of terrans own in lower leagues?
Protoss was OP in sc1:bw, and the D/D- divisions were full of protoss noobs. Once the level gets higher, the skill improves and nature takes it's course. He who does not learn from past mistakes is condemned to repeat them.
Another point is the following:
SC2:WOL is just a part of SC2 as a game. Looking back on SC:BW, is SC:original ballanced? Probably not. Is SC:BW balanced. Definitely the best RTS in that aspect. Even so, the same voices were yelling back in SC:BW that protoss is OP, the same voices that now yell terran is OP.
Conclusion:
The release version is not out for 2 months yet, and every1 assumes the game is figured out already, they make diagnostics about the state of the game and about race balance. We see interviews of players like Tester, Sen, Maka saying that they think a certain race is slightly favoured now. (they have HUGE understanding of the game). And then we see a bunch of n00bs who are silver league at most making a decisive verdict that a certain race is OP, backed up by more n00bs and their idiotic comments, and defended by some other n00bs who play that race in particular.
When you lose to a certain race/build/opening at least keep your BM to yourself. Give it to your ingame opponent IdrA-style. My opinion is that a lot of people come here to discard their frustrations, make false assumptions after losing, when they don't think clear.
These people don't really care about true balance. They just want their race stronger. PERIOD.
Not that i am playing terran, but did any1 mention how hard is to micro MMM ball versus storms/collosi? Or to deal with those pesky ultralisks? Or to deal with fungal/banelings? Or to have your enemy move towards you, and if you steam they just retreat and you waste medivac energy? so on ....................
Of course, if you a-move into a stimmed terran MMM ball and use no abilities you get owned. But then it's not you who blundered, it's the might of the terran overpowered ball.
I didn't know having 15 zerg out of the top 50 (by points from sc2ranks, 6 out of top 20) was considered dominating O.o. Yes, it may be ranked by points, but assuming Korea is Zerg nation is stupid. 4 Z out of top 20 in Taiwan, 2 Z out of 20 in SEA. People need to stop living in Beta phase 1.
Are there more terran players than zerg players? yes, but that shouldn't influence high level numbers/pros (that much), because they choose their race based on their play style, not b/c it was in single player mode.
Everyone agrees with you that it is too early, but people are just giving out suggestion that maybe Blizzard will see (yeah, like 5% chance of seeing it, but that's better than 0...they do actually read....).
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