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On September 01 2010 12:08 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 11:40 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote:
@Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA. Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one. Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for " abandonware" types of situations. It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about.
Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it.
Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
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On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:08 aru wrote:On September 01 2010 11:40 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote:
@Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA. Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one. Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for " abandonware" types of situations. It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about. Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it. Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here. Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post.
Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not.
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On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote:
I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
The issue is the judicial system is not as black and white as you're believing it is. Prime example, ever fought a speeding ticket and won? You might have exceeded the speedlimit, but there are limits to the fairness of which you are convicted and the officer must defend that.
There are crimes that exist in our society that merit no discussion of morals. Your wife analogy is unfounded because it is socially accepted to be a heinous crime and there will be no moral discussion regarding the beating of your wife for 10 years.
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On September 01 2010 12:26 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 12:08 aru wrote:On September 01 2010 11:40 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote:
@Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA. Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one. Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for " abandonware" types of situations. It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about. Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it. Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here. Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post. Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not.
Blizzard owns the ruleset, the art, Starcraft trademark and the actual compiled binaries. What more do you need to own before you have the broadcast rights? Even if BW replays are not Blizzard's property like SC2 replays does not mean you can broadcast them without a license. Heck, you can't even play the game without a license (EULA) that Blizzard makes you agree to.
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On September 01 2010 12:38 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote:
I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here.
The issue is the judicial system is not as black and white as you're believing it is. Prime example, ever fought a speeding ticket and won? You might have exceeded the speedlimit, but there are limits to the fairness of which you are convicted and the officer must defend that. There are crimes that exist in our society that merit no discussion of morals. Your wife analogy is unfounded because it is socially accepted to be a heinous crime and there will be no moral discussion regarding the beating of your wife for 10 years. But a situation like this is far from the murder or beating of a woman. dyb is trying to say that the courts will question blizzard's motives based on the fact as a corporation, they didn't give a shit for 10 years about their IP, and now all of a sudden do. But, because ActiBlizz is a brand new company, they have every right to go over their properties and re-examine their position.
God, stop repeating that stupid "they didn't give a shit for 10 year" argument. It comes from trademark law and doesn't apply to copyright law (it's a provision of trademark law to counter squatting thousands of words indefinitely on the pretense that you trademarked them). My wife beating analogy was made to show how ridiculous that argument sounds in non-trademark cases.
In any way, corporations are moral entities and thus can act in immoral ways in regard of the law. To me, an insurance company refusing treatment to a beaten wife because of a technicality would be just as heinous of a crime as the actual beating even though it would not be illegal in most of the U.S.
KeSPA's hijacking of Starcraft's broadcast rights looks like the willful creation of a blackmarket economy based on exploiting grey areas concerning video games and broadcasting. Are they "games", "videos" or both or none? To me it doesn't matter : broadcast rights go to the creator unless you can find a damn good reason they should not.
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Osaka27152 Posts
This thread is meant to inform about an issue, not provide a venue for posters to spew venom. Try to discuss the issue without rape analogies or gratuitous profanity please.
And also, for the love of god, if you are not up to date on the whole situation, don't post and go read about it. So many messages here are ignorant of the whole situation.
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On September 01 2010 13:00 Bidouleroux wrote:
God, stop repeating that stupid "they didn't give a shit for 10 year" argument. It comes from trademark law and doesn't apply to copyright law (it's a provision of trademark law to counter squatting thousands of words indefinitely on the pretense that you trademarked them). My wife beating analogy was made to show how ridiculous that argument sounds in non-trademark cases.
im removing that to prevent misinformation. to reword, the issue is kespa finding itself as a ruling body and intertwining itself with SCBW so fervently, that blizzard's failure to protect its assets in the past years, is doubtful to have any effect on the changing of the situation in the future. but with actiblizz being a new and larger body, and the threatening of the careers of the progamers themselves, who knows how the situation will turn out.
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On September 01 2010 12:48 Bidouleroux wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 12:26 ShadeR wrote:On September 01 2010 12:21 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 12:08 aru wrote:On September 01 2010 11:40 Bidouleroux wrote:On September 01 2010 11:09 dybydx wrote:
@Bidouleroux
ur derailing the topic here. this is completely different from wife abuse.
aru has a valid claim. if Blizz fail to enforce their IP rights when KeSPA has been "violating" it for 10yrs, its very possible that the court will deem Blizz have forfeited their right. it depends on the jurisdiction ofc, but most countries do not have IP laws as strict as the USA. Did you not get the "piracy priority watchlist" thing? South Korea is a member of WIPO and has been part of the ACTA discussions since day one. Also, aru has no claim at all. His argument is plainly stupid, thus my wife beating analogy. His reasoning is based on trademark law, which grants an infinite term of protection for a word. Trademark law applies to the term "Starcraft" but not to the game itself. The game is protected by copyright law, which has a finite term and applies to the whole of the game. Copyright law has no provision for " abandonware" types of situations. It's funny how people construe arguments that don't exist. I never made mention of IP, trademark or copyright laws. You said they can't make money off of it and I said they did and would have continued if Blizzard left them alone, and unless you're claiming otherwise, I don't get what you're blarghing about. Ignoring the law does not make you immune to it. Sure I can make money by selling someone else's property. I can also get arrested and put in prison after the fact. I fail to see how KeSPA does not end up in prison here. Edit @aru : I was responding to dybydx's interpretation of your post. Your arguement is based on the pretense that broadcasted progame matches of BW are blizzards IP and up until this goes to court we can only speculate as to whether this is the case or not. Blizzard owns the ruleset, the art, Starcraft trademark and the actual compiled binaries. What more do you need to own before you have the broadcast rights? Even if BW replays are not Blizzard's property like SC2 replays does not mean you can broadcast them without a license. Heck, you can't even play the game without a license (EULA) that Blizzard makes you agree to.
Actually, it is KeSPA's rules that we rage about, not blizzard's. Blizzard had nothing to do with JD getting that win in the Nate MSL final, or not allowing players to chat in game. That's all KeSPA.
Furthermore, the people who play the games are contracted under KeSPA. In other words, people who provide these deliciously entertaining BW games to us are people like JD, Flash, Fantasy, Stork, etc. Of course, we can't forget about KeSPA's contribution of shoutcasters for the games as well. Then you add in the fact that KeSPA organized these matches as well as made deals with the broadcasting companies to help get these games televised and broadcasted, well, I'd argue that's no longer clearly Blizzard's IP anymore. Not with the hard work everyone else put in.
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@Bidouleroux:
I'm looking forward to Kespa going to court with ActivisionBlizzard, because I'm optimist about Kespa coming on top. Which means I still get to watch the greatest RTS ever made played by the greatest players ever. You seem to dislike BW so much, so I suggest you waltz back in your SC2 streams and watch ball of units roll over other ball of units.
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I am sure SC2 community has some valuable people, why are only the clowns like xunaka, findingpride, I00I and a couple more coming to this thread when they dont even know what Kespa, e-sports and other important information mean?.
User was temp banned for this post.
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LOL bw is over. time to start getting into sc2. dont worry it will get better with every expansion
User was warned for this post
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Korean Politics has always been about drama, tempers, and doing things behind another parties back by locking doors and signing papers before the other party could bust in and stop the signings.
Best to wait this out and see the results rather then watch the show most of the un-legit want to show.
Sad part is those who are working for/with Kespa who actually care about E-sports are getting brick-faced no matter how this boils down in the end.
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On September 01 2010 14:16 aliciakeys wrote:
LOL bw is over. time to start getting into sc2. dont worry it will get better with every expansion
Sure... have fun in Blizzards back and forth balancing the next years. Even if BW dies, Sc2 can never match that legacy. At least besides tasteless' terrible commentating i have another reason to not watch Gsl
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I don't think this is as one sided as you all think.
we all love brood war, It's still my favorite game of all time, even with SC2.
I have been a spectator for BW for as long as I can remember.
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Companies in the world, like KeSPA have been making a fortune off of blizzards IP.
A lot of people scream a lot of negative things about blizzard here, but remember, blizzard created, made, refined, and provided us all with Starcraft. Not kespa, and not the pro gamers.
Blizzard worked very hard on their new product, and did a fine job. It is absolutely a worthy successor to starcraft. Does that mean Brood war needs to end? of course not. Brood war will always be played.
Blizzard is fine with that, but I feel they are tightening their grip over their rights. Why? It's their game. It's their IP, they own it. If you go to work every day and some random person is becoming a billionaire off of your product without purchasing licences or providing you with compensation that is not fair. You (Blizzard) should be a very important person in the direction of your own product.
Now, not to say blizzard isn't being rude about it, but they have the right to be, not KeSPA or any broadcasting corporation. They must bow to blizzard and that is how it should be.
We should be discussing ways in which blizzard can promote starcraft, and starcraft2 without ruining either of them.
and @zenMaster your comments are pretty rude. KeSPA will not win because the IP is not theirs.
and if it wasn't for Blizzard you'd of never had starcraft in the first place.
SC2 is just as good a game, and it certainly isnt about balls of units rolling over balls of units. SC1 was like that as well when it first came out.
The better players (mainly korean) are microing and attaining apms that are very close to BW. the games are also very exciting. I'm just saying, you shouldn't generalize. Give the game time.
It's only a month old. I'd like to see SC1 a month after it came out. I never came in to play it until it was over a year old, but even then people were playing really oddly. and there was none of the fancy things you see today.
If i was to critize blizzard of anything it would be the speed in which they are pushing sc2. It takes time to do this transition. Broodwar is still in its prime. The progamers from SC1 will all switch to SC2 eventually, simply because it will provide far more income for the teams, but i dont think killing brood war right now is a good idea. let it transition slowly. I do believe however that kespa is just as much in the wrong as blizzard is, though.
@Obelisk8 Kespa as an organization cares about money. Remember that. Money first, starcraft second. They are just as much a tyrant as blizzard. Two sides to every coin.
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@Nu11
I was not talking about money, I was talking about how Korean Politics are in general. I understand their need for money as with Blizzards...I'm just saying that Kespa is plaqued by the same issues as Korean Politics, which tends to be very dramatic when compared to other countries.
They don't understand how smart their audience is....they assume the Middle Schoolers are going to believe everything Kespa says when that is not the case. And its going to hurt them in the long run and make Blizzard look in the better light.
Blizzard spends a lot of time not talking, and its pulling in their favor.
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On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote:
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
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On September 01 2010 15:01 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote:
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
Starcraft is not a sport, it's a video game. We could liken it to traditional sports as much as we want (players, leagues, stadiums, audiences, TV shows), but to play the video game you've got to buy the video game and agree to the EULA contracts. I don't see this happening in sports. And so now here we are in this predicament.
And it's useless to be commenting on spin news and random articles until the real verdict is out. Before when KESPA was pulling their bullshit with Nada pulling out of the game, everyone was jumping on the HATE KESPA bandwagon.
And now all this happened, and everyone is on the HATE BLIZZARD/GOM bandwagon.
Let's just wait for some results before we start laying the blame.
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On September 01 2010 15:28 toadstool wrote:
Let's just wait for some results before we start laying the blame.
On August 31 2010 23:42 Milkis wrote:
However, Gretech, starting with the beginning of the 4th negotiation, has said that "We cannot sign off on the Proleague, since it will compete with the GSL", and KeSPA reacted saying that "If you refuse to sign off on the Proleague, that's like saying we shouldn't be negotiating". Continuing, Gretech, rather than talking about intellectual property fees, has demanded "Reimbursement for the GSL", and KeSPA has rejected the guidelines set by Gretech.
You can start laying the blame now. The negotiations are a sham.
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On September 01 2010 15:01 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 14:49 Nu11 wrote:
However, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. No matter how much we may all wish it did not, it does. It is their IP, their game.
Starcraft is a sport and sports don't belong to anyone. E-sport would never grow if every company like valve etc. would act the same way. But oh well i don't care anymore talking in this thread everything has been said multiple times and im tired of argueing with people new to this scene. (not necessarily directed at you)
no no, its totally fine to not wish to argue with someone new on the scene, that doesn't really fit me I'm just not much of a forum poster. I'm horrible at starcraft so I usually just read and watched.
But in any case, Its hard to compare starcraft and sports. Sports are an idea, they are an event which requires people and nothing else. The tools in which the people use to play the sports are like the keyboards and hardware pro-gamers use.
However, starcraft itself is not just an idea that can be done with any tool, it is more like the whole package. it is the arena as well is it not?
You just cant compare them. If I created a hockey rink, and you could put it on a flash drive and I invested millions of your hard earned money to create that rink, then did all the artwork, sound work, network code, balancing, technical things etc.
So then you sell passes to that "digital rink" which are your cd copies of starcraft. When you buy a video game, you do not own whats on it, you own the right to use it. However, you can not sell that content, or use that content for profit without a contract with the creator. Its like sneaking into that hockey rink and letting people play, charging them to play, getting paid for advertisements for that play, and never giving the rink owners any compensation, it just isn't fair.
its a hard thing to deal with and understand i know, but at the end of the day, starcraft is a video game. It is the product of a lot of hard work and investment from a company that took a risk in creating a product. That is responsible for the quality and the integrity of that product. It is not a sport. Playing starcraft at a competitive level is a sport. But Starcraft itself is a product, an intellectual property, and one that belongs to blizzard.
I just wish blizzard would be less demanding and open up a bit to kespa. SCBW can be profitable for both of them if they were not both so ignorant.
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It's really sad at all.
One the one hand you need big companies for esport but on the other hand they just kill it.
It's obvious that Activison/Blizzard wants to make money, money, money.
They don't care about breaking down the Korean SC:BW scene.
Is there any official statement from the SC2 dev team? What about Dustin Browder's thoughts on that?
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