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On March 29 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote:
the thing is if he either tries to transition to lurkers or tries to transition to hive he opens up a timing window where he doesn't have enough muta to stop the push out, and doesn't yet have the lurkers to defend.
agreed.
Jaedong had 5 expos. He only had mutaling at that point. He had that much econ because he was making only mutalisks.
I don't remember if he had a den or a hive yet but even if he did, it takes time to get the higher tech buildings and to upgrade all the upgrades needed to use the units properly.
If you saw at the last attack, Jaedong barely came out the victor and had like 6 or 7 mutas left. If Iris had another vessel, there's little doubt that he could have simply wiped out Jaedong's army with irradiate, walked down and cleared Jaedong's main or just go around and clear out expos. There was a clear timing window available for him, if he were able to kill Jaedong's army, which he didn't so the point is moot.
I'm aware that what Jaedong did was different. The point was that microing two different mutalisk groups at nat and main is more difficult and micro-oriented than microing two groups together, so him microing two groups together here wasn't really that big of a deal.
Also, Luxury beat Frozean with muta only by switching out damaged mutas, then overwhelming him at the end on Fantasy II in Bacchus OSL last year (not sure if this is the right twin or right starleague)
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In jaedong vs upmagic jaedong's mutas were on attack move in up's main while he was microing in up's nat and he retreated the mutas in the nat and than went back to the muta's in ups main. It seemed like he was microing them at the same time but it was actually just 1 group at a time.. What jaedong did in this game was like 2 muta group hold and move back as if they were one. Just the thought of doing that like 1 move 2 move 1 h 2 h 1 move 2 move all at the right timings seems unhuman. Im not talking about the 1 hit ko turret micro. I think microing 2 groups of muta at the same time is much harder than microing 2 groups separately.
Frozean never got to scout lux's base so he never even knew lux was going 2 hatch so his turrets were really late. The game was over from the moment lux's mutas popped imo. Most zergs who go 2 hatch muta get +1 atk and go straight to hive and go guardians. This was the first time ive seen a zerg get +2 atk and also +1 carapace.
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Talk about 5 pool gone wrong lol.
SkyHigh was sick.
Oh and JD's mutas vs Iris were out of this world.
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Obviously in the game against upmagic, it was one group at a time; its humanly impossible to micro both at the same time. And although he had the game won by that time, it's rather difficult to micro both groups around and keeping track of where they are, as well as macroing so that more mutas are being produced. It's more of a mental exercise, whereas simply microing 2 groups of muta together is more of a mechanical skill, which Jaedong utilizes with great effect in his zvzs.
In any case, there is no argument, I was just pointing out the fact that Jaedong has proved his micro before, especially in zvz and was just giving what I thought of as an exceptional example that shows it in zvt, despite the fact that the game is somewhat old relatively. The frozean vs luxury game was also just an example of a game where a zerg went muta only vs a terran.
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omg i just watched those games skyhigh u are so pimp ....man this was better then the other PL finals with Darkelf sent out for ace
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On March 28 2009 18:41 Orbifold wrote:
Here is a question though, can Jaedong put up a defense so strong that even Jaedong cannot break it? Think about it...
No, Jaedong is 5/10 in defense.
Edit: Whoops looks like someone already said this.
Anyways, insane results haha.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On March 28 2009 19:10 koziol wrote:
-_- reverse all kill and i jump outta my window (2 nd floor)
On March 28 2009 20:16 koziol wrote:
lol OZ, Im jumping -_-
I hope you're ok lol
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On March 29 2009 03:38 JWD wrote:I love how you guys are blasting JD after he took out CJ's 3 best players LOL he basically handed this match to his team on a silver platter, the 5pool was a calculated risk with the potential of throwing an inexperienced opponent for a loop. You have to consider that, while sKyHigh was probably prepping to play against JD/on RH3 for a month, JD had to prepare for the first three sets of this match. By playing straight up, JD would allow sKyHigh to play whatever build he'd been preparing, and thus cede an advantage to his opponent. JD played fabulously in this match, stop ragging on him and start getting on his incapable teammates 
i hate the idea that skyhigh was preparing to snipe JD on RH3. Thats just insane thing to say, who the fuck "snipes" a player when its 0-3? whats the use of the "snipe" when you are 1 game away from losing? If he was used second( fuck it, at least not LAST), i can speculate about coach preparing well for the game and making a right decision
the way things went, it was a desperate situation, he didnt have to "snipe", he had to ALL KILL Oz. Noone fuckign expected skyhigh to all kill( i love the guy and i had him on fantasy team all season)
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On March 29 2009 11:59 food wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 03:38 JWD wrote:I love how you guys are blasting JD after he took out CJ's 3 best players LOL he basically handed this match to his team on a silver platter, the 5pool was a calculated risk with the potential of throwing an inexperienced opponent for a loop. You have to consider that, while sKyHigh was probably prepping to play against JD/on RH3 for a month, JD had to prepare for the first three sets of this match. By playing straight up, JD would allow sKyHigh to play whatever build he'd been preparing, and thus cede an advantage to his opponent. JD played fabulously in this match, stop ragging on him and start getting on his incapable teammates i hate the idea that skyhigh was preparing to snipe JD on RH3. Thats just insane thing to say, who the fuck "snipes" a player when its 0-3? whats the use of the "snipe" when you are 1 game away from losing? If he was used second( fuck it, at least not LAST), i can speculate about coach preparing well for the game and making a right decision the way things went, it was a desperate situation, he didnt have to "snipe", he had to ALL KILL Oz. Noone fuckign expected skyhigh to all kill( i love the guy and i had him on fantasy team all season)
I think most people who say that do not know what the term "snipe" means.
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Uhh a summary on how I saw it..
Effort vs Jaedong - it's ZvZ and Jaedong is playing so he wins.
Iris vs Jaedong - Iris turtles with a lot of turrets but Jaedong has balls as large as water melons so he takes down those turrets with 2 control groups of mutalisks with +2/+1.
Savior vs Jaedong - it's ZvZ and Jaedong is playing so he wins. Before the countdown, there was a good page and a half worth of fanboys screaming and cheering and posting vids of Savior but meh, we all know he won't win. Jaedong masses lings and takes out savior before mutalisks can help. I don't recall if savior even had a spire going up already. Jaedong also saved us from a good 2-3 pages of a lynch mob saying "omg its 2009!" or whatever. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's 2009, seriously.
SkyHigh vs Jaedong - Jaedong 5 pools. But fuck that, Hoejja 5 pooled and 2 sunk rushed SkyHigh on Colloseum and SkyHigh won, what gave Jaedong the idea that he can win with 5 pool? Lesson Learned, you can't cheese the guy who cheesed Jaedong, you can't cheese the CheddarKing.
SkyHigh vs Young - SkyHigh shows us how to bunker rush a toss that goes for fast nexus. Young goes for 12/13 nexus then SkyHigh kills him.
SkyHigh vs Spear - Spear goes for fast nexus but SkyHigh decides to play straight up. SkyHigh is so ballsy that he expands after knowing that Spear went for a fast nexus. SkyHigh then attacks Spear, Spear forgets his shuttle with zealots, Spear blunders, SkyHigh attacks Spear's min only, Spear reacts badly, Spear GGs.
SkyHigh vs Hiya - The best match of the night imo. A very very very very very nice back and forth TvT that kept everyone (even the fans and the players were holding hands) on the edge of their seat. SkyHigh picks off the nat gas of Hiya and prevents him from further expansion attempts. SkyHigh relentlessly drops at Hiya's main and pressuring the nat. Hiya GGs. SkyHigh reverse all kills Oz.
A legend is born.
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Gaaaaaaaaah the game on Medusa was fucking awesome.
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On March 29 2009 12:22 koreasilver wrote:
Gaaaaaaaaah the game on Medusa was fucking awesome.
I would have to say more up epic fail by spear. Unless you're referring to SkyHigh's great execution.
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There was no timing window for Iris that game.
Sure if jaedong was a worse player, he might have kept his vessels alive and more marines alive. But arguing lilke that doesn't make sense.
Also i still dont think 5-pool was a great choice.
Its a threeplayer map with ramp, there is pretty high chance skyhigh will scout him in the first try.
I believe that Jaedong is the stronger player out of the two, and even on RH3 his chances would be greater to win that game straight up than cheesing like that.
If you want to be unpredictable, go 9pool speed or something like that.
Even if he had won the games, the odds was against that build.
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United States12607 Posts
On March 29 2009 11:59 food wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 03:38 JWD wrote:I love how you guys are blasting JD after he took out CJ's 3 best players LOL he basically handed this match to his team on a silver platter, the 5pool was a calculated risk with the potential of throwing an inexperienced opponent for a loop. You have to consider that, while sKyHigh was probably prepping to play against JD/on RH3 for a month, JD had to prepare for the first three sets of this match. By playing straight up, JD would allow sKyHigh to play whatever build he'd been preparing, and thus cede an advantage to his opponent. JD played fabulously in this match, stop ragging on him and start getting on his incapable teammates i hate the idea that skyhigh was preparing to snipe JD on RH3. Thats just insane thing to say, who the fuck "snipes" a player when its 0-3? whats the use of the "snipe" when you are 1 game away from losing? If he was used second( fuck it, at least not LAST), i can speculate about coach preparing well for the game and making a right decision the way things went, it was a desperate situation, he didnt have to "snipe", he had to ALL KILL Oz. Noone fuckign expected skyhigh to all kill( i love the guy and i had him on fantasy team all season)
Uhhhh...I said "snipe" nowhere in my post. Also, notice the slash between "against JD" and "on RH3" - slash means one or the other, not both.
And yes, considering that CJ sent Iris on SCR, sKyHigh was extremely likely to play on RH3 and he knew this pre-match. From his post-match interview:
SkyHigh: I practiced a lot of TvZ for Rush Hour 3 so I was confident. I think I won more easily because Jeadong all-ined. I thought it would be a tough game but I won quite easily so it felt weird.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90304
So food: don't post like an idiot.
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On March 29 2009 12:02 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:
...I don't recall if savior even had a spire going up already.
Savior's spire was around halfway completed, if I remember correctly. Jaedong was making one, but I don't remember how far behind it was exactly. Definitely far enough behind for savior to do damage with muta, but probably not far enough behind for it to cost JD the game.
SkyHigh is so ballsy that he expands after knowing that Spear went for a fast nexus. SkyHigh then attacks Spear, Spear forgets his shuttle with zealots,,,
Skyhigh had already committed to a fact expand opening by the time he scouted the quick nexus. Wouldn't have made sense to not go through with it at that point. And Spear didn't forget his shuttle with zeals in that first battle, he had zeals in it and dropped them ... on the bunker.
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On March 29 2009 12:24 eatmyshorts5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 12:22 koreasilver wrote:
Gaaaaaaaaah the game on Medusa was fucking awesome. I would have to say more up epic fail by spear. Unless you're referring to SkyHigh's great execution.
Well, of course spear played really bad, but the fact that skyhigh dominated him that badly on a P>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>T map with flair was just ludicrously entertaining.
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United States12607 Posts
On March 29 2009 08:37 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote:
the thing is if he either tries to transition to lurkers or tries to transition to hive he opens up a timing window where he doesn't have enough muta to stop the push out, and doesn't yet have the lurkers to defend. agreed. Jaedong had 5 expos. He only had mutaling at that point. He had that much econ because he was making only mutalisks. I don't remember if he had a den or a hive yet but even if he did, it takes time to get the higher tech buildings and to upgrade all the upgrades needed to use the units properly. If you saw at the last attack, Jaedong barely came out the victor and had like 6 or 7 mutas left. If Iris had another vessel, there's little doubt that he could have simply wiped out Jaedong's army with irradiate, walked down and cleared Jaedong's main or just go around and clear out expos. There was a clear timing window available for him, if he were able to kill Jaedong's army, which he didn't so the point is moot. I'm aware that what Jaedong did was different. The point was that microing two different mutalisk groups at nat and main is more difficult and micro-oriented than microing two groups together, so him microing two groups together here wasn't really that big of a deal. Also, Luxury beat Frozean with muta only by switching out damaged mutas, then overwhelming him at the end on Fantasy II in Bacchus OSL last year (not sure if this is the right twin or right starleague)
I agree with your post, with one exception: it's really not fair to say that Iris was close to wiping out JD around the time of the large battle in the center of the map, because at that point JD was so far ahead he actually just flew his mutas right over Iris's MnM ball and let them sit there.
JD could easily have saved many mutalisks by microing around SCR's many cliffs, but he knew at that point that he could defeat that army without the micro (and that once he killed that army the game was his no matter how many muta he had left).
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On March 29 2009 12:26 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 11:59 food wrote:On March 29 2009 03:38 JWD wrote:I love how you guys are blasting JD after he took out CJ's 3 best players LOL he basically handed this match to his team on a silver platter, the 5pool was a calculated risk with the potential of throwing an inexperienced opponent for a loop. You have to consider that, while sKyHigh was probably prepping to play against JD/on RH3 for a month, JD had to prepare for the first three sets of this match. By playing straight up, JD would allow sKyHigh to play whatever build he'd been preparing, and thus cede an advantage to his opponent. JD played fabulously in this match, stop ragging on him and start getting on his incapable teammates i hate the idea that skyhigh was preparing to snipe JD on RH3. Thats just insane thing to say, who the fuck "snipes" a player when its 0-3? whats the use of the "snipe" when you are 1 game away from losing? If he was used second( fuck it, at least not LAST), i can speculate about coach preparing well for the game and making a right decision the way things went, it was a desperate situation, he didnt have to "snipe", he had to ALL KILL Oz. Noone fuckign expected skyhigh to all kill( i love the guy and i had him on fantasy team all season) Uhhhh...I said "snipe" nowhere in my post. Also, notice the slash between "against JD" and "on RH3" - slash means one or the other, not both. And yes, considering that CJ sent Iris on SCR, sKyHigh was extremely likely to play on RH3 and he knew this pre-match. From his post-match interview: Show nested quote +SkyHigh: I practiced a lot of TvZ for Rush Hour 3 so I was confident. I think I won more easily because Jeadong all-ined. I thought it would be a tough game but I won quite easily so it felt weird. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90304So food: don't post like an idiot.
if you trying to get personal, go ahead
my post wasnt directed at you specifically, but at a ton of people saying same shit( about "sniping" or specifically preparing for a game vs JD)
i posted same rant earlier in this thread
now tell me where he said that he trained himself for a game vs JD on RH3 specifically "for a month". You said this exact fucking thing, "prepping to play JD/on RH3 for a month". All he says, he played a ton of tvz on RH3; since RH3 neither first nor second map, he had no hope to be playing on it after best CJ players take turns vs JD. Skyhigh had to prep 1 map( your dumb idea) "while JD had to prepare for the first three sets of this match" - suggests that skyhigh expected to be playing RH3 vs JD. He fucking wouldnt be playing on it if savior or iris took their games. What you said "specifically train specific map to face specific opponent" is called "sniping", seems like you cant define it. Thus, you are the one posting like a moron, contradicting yourself every sentence. Its a major coincidence that skyhigh got to play on RH3 vs Jaedong, AND he never mentioned himself that he was preparing for a game vs JD. RH3 was his strong map, he got to play on it in desperate situation, thats all it is
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On March 29 2009 12:34 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2009 08:37 ghostWriter wrote:On March 29 2009 08:15 fusionsdf wrote:
the thing is if he either tries to transition to lurkers or tries to transition to hive he opens up a timing window where he doesn't have enough muta to stop the push out, and doesn't yet have the lurkers to defend. agreed. Jaedong had 5 expos. He only had mutaling at that point. He had that much econ because he was making only mutalisks. I don't remember if he had a den or a hive yet but even if he did, it takes time to get the higher tech buildings and to upgrade all the upgrades needed to use the units properly. If you saw at the last attack, Jaedong barely came out the victor and had like 6 or 7 mutas left. If Iris had another vessel, there's little doubt that he could have simply wiped out Jaedong's army with irradiate, walked down and cleared Jaedong's main or just go around and clear out expos. There was a clear timing window available for him, if he were able to kill Jaedong's army, which he didn't so the point is moot. I'm aware that what Jaedong did was different. The point was that microing two different mutalisk groups at nat and main is more difficult and micro-oriented than microing two groups together, so him microing two groups together here wasn't really that big of a deal. Also, Luxury beat Frozean with muta only by switching out damaged mutas, then overwhelming him at the end on Fantasy II in Bacchus OSL last year (not sure if this is the right twin or right starleague) I agree with your post, with one exception: it's really not fair to say that Iris was close to wiping out JD around the time of the large battle in the center of the map, because at that point JD was so far ahead he actually just flew his mutas right over Iris's MnM ball and let them sit there. JD could easily have saved many mutalisks by microing around SCR's many cliffs, but he knew at that point that he could defeat that army without the micro (and that once he killed that army the game was his no matter how many muta he had left).
You're totally right. I was just trying to make an argument for Iris still being able to grab a timing window but I still feel that if Iris had even one more vessels for irradiates, there existed a possibility for a different outcome. In any case, the games are over and both sides played really well. It was an exciting series and a fitting end for the season.
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Uh food, I'm sorry but, from the WL Interview:
- SkyHigh: I practiced a lot of TvZ for Rush Hour 3 so I was confident. I think I won more easily because Jeadong all-ined. I thought it would be a tough game but I won quite easily so it felt weird.
I'd also love it if people stopped harping on JD's build order. The 5 pool *worked*, or at least it would have if JD had executed it properly. Skyhigh's micro wasn't top-notch, as he lost his first two marines to the first 6 zerglings. If JD had continued to reinforce his units the match would have been over. But instead he went all drones, expanded, made no sunkens, upgraded ling speed.... and basically screwed himself over. So JD's initial decision WAS genius, but it was everything after that sucked.
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EPT
