[ASL12] Grand Finals

On November 07 2021 19:49 Piste wrote:
When was the last time ASL had an audience at their event?

On November 07 2021 19:52 BLinD-RawR wrote:


ASL 9 at the start still had an audience before everything shut down.

On November 07 2021 20:03 Terrorbladder wrote:
Rush is terrible lol, all that APM and he doesn't even scan for observers to kill them.

On November 07 2021 20:07 superjoppe wrote:

Yea I wish we had Terrorbladder in the finals instead.

On November 07 2021 20:13 Terrorbladder wrote:
If he does badly then he is bad. I watched a couple of his TvP matches on YouTube before the final and they were pretty uninspiring. We're not allowed to critique players here anymore?

On November 07 2021 20:41 Terrorbladder wrote:
31/107 lol

On November 07 2021 20:35 outscar wrote:
Mini really wants to lose... He lost just like this on last games finals vs. Larva.

On November 07 2021 21:09 prosatan wrote:
ASL hasn't been won by a protoss since Shuttle won ASL 1, i think..

On November 07 2021 21:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:

Rain won, too.

On November 07 2021 21:15 Rovant1c wrote:
Best bo7 of 2021 !

On November 07 2021 21:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:

Rain won, too.

On November 07 2021 23:03 SpaNiarD wrote:


very useful talent toi have** :D

On November 07 2021 23:03 konadora wrote:
holy shit, i thought this was gonna be a win for mini after game 4, but WOW did rush put up a strong fight

incredible series, every game was exciting!

On November 08 2021 00:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Not only did Mini win these finals, he almost won the last finals, too. Protoss looking great these days

On November 08 2021 00:48 Magic Powers wrote:
Not only did Mini win these finals, he almost won the last finals, too. Protoss looking great these days

On November 07 2021 13:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:
shut up bigfan.

On November 08 2021 03:57 Essbee wrote:
Unbelievable finals. That was incredible. Rush practiced a LOT with Best but apparently that wasn't enough. Carriers carries the legend of the fall once again.

On November 08 2021 07:09 angry_maia wrote:


i mean this probably explains how he did really well against the shuttle storm style mini tried in game 2. However Best is a very very different toss from Mini.

On November 08 2021 18:15 A.Alm wrote:
One of the best ASL finals for sure, but the state of PvT feels very coin flippy right now. Many proxy/aggro gates and nexus firsts, and the outcome really relies on spawn positioning and scouting your player first or not. Just a year ago 90% of openers were goon expands after range.

On November 08 2021 19:25 oxKnu wrote:


I think that's fine since most 'standard' builds always lean favorable to a Terran win in the long-term.

That's why we had such a Terran resurgence a couple of years ago with Last/Light/Sharp having great success then.

Also the current maps are good for weirder strats since they're not that easy to bust/contain.

On November 08 2021 18:15 A.Alm wrote:
One of the best ASL finals for sure, but the state of PvT feels very coin flippy right now. Many proxy/aggro gates and nexus firsts, and the outcome really relies on spawn positioning and scouting your player first or not. Just a year ago 90% of openers were goon expands after range.

On November 09 2021 03:48 Magic Powers wrote:


It's not randomness, it's called mixing it up. If you're predictable, you're exploitable. Creating uncertainty through a variety of builds/plays is a a fundamental aspect of strategy.
Randomness is when things aren't in control of the player. 12 nex is perfectly in the hands of the player.

On November 09 2021 08:55 A.Alm wrote:


i'm talking about spawn positioning and weather you scouting first or not, which is random.

On November 09 2021 15:07 RowdierBob wrote:
I thought Mini’s focus on carriers was smart. It puts the pressure on Terran to make something happen as if a Protoss gets to double digit carriers in a healthy enough economic position, it becomes so hard for terrans, even with mass goliaths.

Mini’s builds forced the issue and he was good enough to counter the timings terrans try to exploit when the carrier count is low.

On November 10 2021 12:04 Lazyer wrote:
Crazy crazy mind games, Mini sure does know how to put on a show (maybe not as much as Larva)! I don't think I've ever seen (plural) Scouts in Starleague before, SUCH A BALLER MOVE.

Loved the commentary from Scan and Nyoken, seeing how Mini was able to take engagements before key upgrades were kicking in was an astute observation. Rush taking it to game 7 hopefully means we'll have a real ASLCHAMPRUSH soon enough!

On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote:
Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans?

On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote:
Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans?

On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote:
Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans?

On November 11 2021 23:48 BigFan wrote:
Here are the Flash vs Mini series, with some 2 base carrier games, in question:
https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/37819664

Game 1: 12 nexus into 2 gates on Neo Sylphid, gets scouted, bunker rushed = gg
Game 2: Mini loses his reavers (1 base robo) despite doing some good damage early on and that allowed Flash to push+he scouted carriers before the first one was even out = gg
Game 3: 12 nexus vs 13 cc, Flash is on par or better position, starts making goliath early, 4 at a time culminating in a dead third (why Mini made it close to Flash's base is beyond me, probably thinking he can defend it with offense) then a big push towards the main and a siege at the bottom. Goliaths were enough to deal with 5-6 carriers and shredded interceptor. Flash had a 3rd+4th mining by this point, while Mini had lost his 3rd and was only just retaking it at another position = gg

I would say part of it was the maps. Trying to 12 nexus on Neo Sylphid is a lot different from trying to 12 nexus on something like good night where the rush difference is bigger plus scouting plays a role. Flash also scouted the carrier switch in at least one game (likely did game 3 too, didn't watch whole game) so he started preparing goliaths in advance. In general, I believe scouting them early and pushing with a goliath/tank army before they have 4 carriers with 8 interceptor and a small army to help the carrier is great. Microing is a part of it too. Flash plays another role since he knows what he can and can't do, and the timing is all mapped out so he can go greedy when he's able etc..

In this finals, in the last game, Rush had a chance when he pushed, but if memory serves, he attacked up the high ground (first volley at least) and don't believe that he played out the micro game optimally. Granted, the last game was not a 12 nexus. It was what, 1 gate core into exp?

On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote:
Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans?

On November 12 2021 07:02 BigFan wrote:
Yes, the games are more complex, and it's true that Mini skipping goon range or delaying it helped him get up faster tech on top of all the preparation and other brilliant moves he did (shuttle play in game 2 was great, and could've honestly even won him the game with slightly better micro/if shuttle was hidden till drop).

I too felt like Rush's micro could've been better. My understanding is the same as yours. If the goliaths are under the carriers, it's typically better to target the carrier itself compared to the goliaths being out of range where you target interceptors. General rule, but exceptions do apply.

On November 12 2021 07:27 psyCrowe wrote:
This isn't working on YT any more? Trying my damndest to avoid spoilers here. Have been watching over past few days and am on G4 but Youtube saying ' This video is unavailable on this device' ???

On November 12 2021 07:27 psyCrowe wrote:
This isn't working on YT any more? Trying my damndest to avoid spoilers here. Have been watching over past few days and am on G4 but Youtube saying ' This video is unavailable on this device' ???

On November 12 2021 18:02 nyoken wrote:


Cruiser contacted Youtube and it should be working now

On November 12 2021 18:02 nyoken wrote:


Cruiser contacted Youtube and it should be working now

On November 12 2021 06:45 Barneyk wrote:


I think people in this thread isn't giving enough credit to Minis early game here. How he cuts corners very well, like skipping goon range, and puts on soft pressure and scouts very well with excellent probe micro to stay alive as long as possible.

It seemed to me that Mini was doing better overall in the small micro-engagements, Rush had a few moments of great success but overall Mini did better.

In game 1 he does a very awkward zealot heavy ground army that Rush didn't expect after having a really good opener and being in control.

The perfect counter to the dropship play in game 2 was amazing, he knows Rush likes to go for it so he countered it. He lost the game by underestimating the defense and doing a poor attack.

In game 3 the way he scouted with an empty shuttle and went for scouts when he saw the 5 fact won him the game, Rush would've busted him if he hadn't done that.

Overall I felt like Rush was a bit to passive on several occasions and Mini usually won the mind game, like with the very late gas steal.

But Rush playing so safe is what won him game 2, 5 and 6. He punished Mini hard when Mini was cheesy or overaggressive.

But to passive when Mini played greedy and got his machine rolling.

And I mean, there is so much more to these games, I thought they were amazing and both played very well.

But Mini was definitely the more deserving winner, there was a lot of special flair and preparation to his play here while Rush played a bit to standard.

It really could've been a 4-0 if Mini didn't throw that 2nd game with that poor attack.

Also, someone that knows this better, to me it seemed a bit like Rush microd his Goliaths wrong in some engagements, when the carriers where on top of the goliaths they were still shooting down interceptors, isn't it better to target down the carriers then? There were so many goliaths it wouldn't take many volleys to bring a carrier down? But I felt like the carriers stayed alive forever, so after the fight Mini is out of interceptors and Rush is out of Goliaths.

Sure, if often times the carriers are not in range to be attacked effectively, but even when they were it seemed like Rush didn't target them as much as he should've.

Or is it something I don't know about Carrier vs. Goliath fights to explain it?

On November 14 2021 07:14 Holint_Casazr wrote:
StarCast VoD on YT is still messed up for me, but their Afreeca VoD worked fine - thanks for a great season of casts and what a nice final to end with. Would have liked rush to win but Mini really deserved a titel finally.

Legend of the Fall I guess! Though can't beat that first JangBi OSL season when it comes to that (that was 10 years ago now, wow).

On November 14 2021 12:18 nyoken wrote:

Also not working for me now. I let Cruiser know

On November 10 2021 22:57 RKC wrote:
Out of curiosity, how exactly does Flash counter 2-base carrier play? What does he do differently or better than other Terrans?