EPThttps://tl.net/liquibet/betcomments.php?liquibet=26
or accidentally clicked zerO
Either way pleasant surprise
[ASL9] Semifinal A - Page 17
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
https://tl.net/liquibet/betcomments.php?liquibet=26 or accidentally clicked zerO Either way pleasant surprise | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:13 Siz)Beggar wrote: Its because flash said that the korean zergs had figured out the 1-1-1 build and the risks that came with it were that if you mis micro at all and mess up even once it means gg for you so i think he was looking for a safer build to try since the 1-1-1 has been figured out and only works as a surprise if you opponent has never seen is I feel the difference is not that big though, lose your valks and you lose with this build. I mean 1-1-1 looked stronger to me (possibly also because they didnt know how to deal with it) than this. I honestly feel these valk builds didnt look all that strong. Flash got his 2nd scv scout to at least confirm his suspicions in the games he won, but is this really a good build? I don't think so to be honest. I think this valk build has no future to be honest, it was somewhat new now (we've seen it before though), he still managed to win 2 games with it, but it was just crap in the end. I'm not sure why he didn't just play SK terran style. I feel it would be so much stronger, but yea it wouldn't land you the 2 almost freewins he did get from this strat. He did end up losing 3 because of it too though, it almost makes me wonder if he wants to play these do or die strats because of his hand troubles. Either way it robs the spectators from real nice games imo. But yea, I know im pretty much alone in this, as many people feel these were freaking awesome games. Either way, I really feel this Flash was nothing special and these games were pretty much a disgrace to his god status. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2589 Posts
On April 13 2020 01:13 Aminus wrote: Flash is in a slump, or just no practice. Game 5 was terrible on his side, decision making was so bad and his lack of skill in micro was so obvious. Zero was perfectly prepared, well deserved. Same for zero. I saw idle drones in Games 1 and 2 and lots of bad rally points. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2589 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:49 CobaltBlu wrote: Zero played really well but I'm not sure why Flash was pushing these builds so hard. A lot of those timings looked really fragile and we didn't see extended macro games. As flash was aiming to gain huge advantages in the mid-game, for whatsoever reason, the pushes he was making was really ‘semi-all in’-ish to counter muta+lings. The Valks could only go for overlord killing sprees (e.g, Canata vs Jaedong) | ||
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TelecoM
United States10675 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:49 CobaltBlu wrote: I'm not sure why Flash was pushing these builds so hard. . Most likely because he knows he is FlaSh and can pull things off other players can't, and also because of Game 1 on Match Point where he just won straight out after killing 3rd. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I loved how the valk opening made ZvT look like a bit closer a ZvP game. Damn I was expecting the mutas to die and for Flash to win it everytime the mutas engaged with the valks. The level of mindgames is amazing from both sides. To all the fanboys, if Queen did not have the star sense to figure it out Flash's new build on the spot, there would have been endless praise for the innovation to TvZ from Flash by all of you (unlike Artosis, who thought identified that the build was super strong and he's practising it now). Instead we have you all (wholly or partially) blaming the losses on the new innovation, which I don't understand why, because Flash won 2/4 of the games where he went valks by completely steamrolling Queen, while he lost 1 game due to a successful allin (which would have worked against many other TvZ openers) and another game where the map is nonstandard and Flash had to adjust his valk build to include early tanks and a dropship suit the map while Queen managed to get his lings into the mineral only. Flash not anticipating the lings has nothing to do with the valk build. Most top zergs including Jaedong in his prime would have probably gotten rolled over repeatedly to this innovation. As a zerg I think the valk opening is extremely strong and I'm terrified of it, because we can't play like we do in ZvP (scourge->hydras or just mass hydras, because then bio would kill us) and going mutas is extremely risky. I believe that Queen would have probably lost if g5 were mutas vs valks again on a standard map like CB. Imagine if the 3 (irrc) tanks and a dropship were all valks. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
If Flash committed to Valks and Goliaths, there was a reason. Back when he was facing Jaedong in the MSL and OSL (many times in 2010), he often avoided using basic SK Terran builds for trickier timings. I specifically remember a finals game where he smashed Jaedong with a Valk timing and another where he smashed Jaedong with a biomech timing. He also used a lot of bunker rushes against Jaedong, in addition to 14CC openers. Basically, he took all kinds of risks, and when the dust settled, he was the king and Jaedong wasn't anymore. I don't think he felt particularly favored against Jaedong in a late-game SK Terran vs Zerg war. Flash is great at SK Terran but Jaedong just wasn't the person you wanted to be doing that against. Not that he wouldn't have more than just a fighting chance --- of course he would --- but you have to take your very best chance. The same thing might have been going on here. Zero is really good in those big, long games. Flash probably thought his odds were better this way. I still think Flash was the favorite 60% to 40% today, and my guess is he thought his edge was bigger with the mind games and timings than with builds aimed at an SK Terran late game. Maybe his odds in such a late game are more like 55% to 45%, or 50% to 50%. Who knows. But Flash doesn't do builds because they suck. Flash loses because the other player rises to the occasion and plays brilliantly. | ||
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
I felt that Flash picked goofy strategies. Why didn't he play straight up such as 5 rax +1, full on mech, or even two port wraith? Did he EVER make a Science Vessel in five games? I can't understand that. If Flash played straight up he would have won 3-0. Instead he pulls out goofy two factory into bio play with a few expensive valks for air cover multiple times. It was frustrating to watch. Flash doesn't need those gimmicks to win. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On April 13 2020 11:21 Geographer wrote: If Flash played straight up he would have won 3-0 ... Flash doesn't need those gimmicks to win. Did you see his series against Action? His performance in straight up games did not look great. Gimmicks probably have him the best chance he could have had. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13112 Posts
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
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reincremate
China2215 Posts
Even if it's the case that playing a maximum of five long macro games in one sitting is not too much of a strain for Flash, given his physical condition, it's understandable if he'd rather use these more do-or-die-style builds. In any case, I really hope Flash will be back with a vengeance next season. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13112 Posts
But it was risky with only one gas on hitchhiker. I think he prob would’ve been better going mass bio rather than tanks. Could’ve hit a nice timing up the middle. But the key move in this game was zero sniping the drop ship. That swing the momentum his way. If that gets into zero’s base it harms his eco enough that flash gets his third up and crushes the mid to late game. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:10 RowdierBob wrote: Flash’s valk builds were really strong and the two games he won were very one sided. But it was risky with only one gas on hitchhiker. I think he prob would’ve been better going mass bio rather than tanks. Could’ve hit a nice timing up the middle. But the key move in this game was zero sniping the drop ship. That swing the momentum his way. If that gets into zero’s base it harms his eco enough that flash gets his third up and crushes the mid to late game. those 2 tanks were quite a headscratcher . i was very surprised that he didn't win the game where he opened with 2 factories then transitioned to bio. his push was very strong and zero was prepared for mech only until the push was moving and the 2 sunks just barely saved him. after that game i was like wow flash can lose.. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10193 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:47 Alejandrisha wrote: those 2 tanks were quite a headscratcher . i was very surprised that he didn't win the game where he opened with 2 factories then transitioned to bio. his push was very strong and zero was prepared for mech only until the push was moving and the 2 sunks just barely saved him. after that game i was like wow flash can lose.. Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:13 Siz)Beggar wrote: Its because flash said that the korean zergs had figured out the 1-1-1 build and the risks that came with it were that if you mis micro at all and mess up even once it means gg for you so i think he was looking for a safer build to try since the 1-1-1 has been figured out and only works as a surprise if you opponent has never seen is Sure. I tend to agree and I feel like this sorry build is meant to counter the current 2 hatch muta meta. It's probably also easier on the wrists since you have less to control, but I also wish that flash tried another build when he realized that he spawned so close on horizon. Why not the valk build there? I'm sure there's a good reason for it. On April 13 2020 13:09 reincremate wrote: Maybe wrist issues is the main reason Flash opted for mid-game killing blows instead of builds that are more likely to result in longer games? I remember reading something along those lines after his ASL 6 finals loss to Effort going 1-1-1 every game, but I don't remember if it was a translation or just speculation. Even if it's the case that playing a maximum of five long macro games in one sitting is not too much of a strain for Flash, given his physical condition, it's understandable if he'd rather use these more do-or-die-style builds. In any case, I really hope Flash will be back with a vengeance next season. You're not wrong. If I recall properly, Flash during the days of 1-1-1 (around that period) stated that the max he can do 5 rax +1 was three times a day. I can only presume his condition worsened since he still plays the game even if he's taking precautions. It would also explain why he's trying hard to make this sorry build work because of the current meta+wrist issues. Like some other people, I question why he never tried 2 rax builds or others and can only hope that we get some information from him in the near future. On April 13 2020 13:57 FlaShFTW wrote: Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. Are you talking about game 5 for the valk build? Reason I ask is because Flash destroyed ZerO in game 1 on MP and game 3 on polypoid with the valk build. He won their first engagement pretty well (ZerO lost everything to barely any losses to Flash in game 3). If you mean game 5, ZerO had some nice valk snipes in the middle of the map and got another valk near Flash's mineral only. Not to mention that Flash had to stop making valks to make a dropship which ZerO sniped right away. Dropship was odd to me because it was the right idea, but he moved it right into OL range instead of trying to skirt it around the edge of the map as usual, but losing that was a big loss imo. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Wrong: omg Flash was so dumb. Right: Flash knows more than me and I don't agree with what he did. What can I learn from the fact that his decision was different from mine? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 13 2020 14:56 Djabanete wrote: I'm impressed at how many people in this thread know more about TvZ builds than Flash. I think it's perfectly reasonable to question why he went for the build he did when there seem to be other options as well. After all, most of us are noobs at the game in comparison. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:57 FlaShFTW wrote: Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. ??? 2 hatch muta into fast 3rd base relies on mutalisks. Game 1 and 4 are as standard as zvt today is. Its not like zerg can just build 4 sunkens, hydraden, lurker aspect and build lurkers with 2 hatch. Zergs need mutalisks to keep terran back while building economy with third gas. | ||
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