EPT
[ASL9] Semifinal A
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
3-0 flash | ||
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zlald
Korea (South)34 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
 Flash is going to be taking this series seriously, even more so after he almost lost to Action. ZerO also doesn't have the mentality to beat Flash. Prove me wrong ZerO! | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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StonyDrew
United States10 Posts
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StonyDrew
United States10 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8045 Posts
But if he actives his god mode once agasin, Zero has little chance. Zero trained with Light for this match and lost a couple of games on timing attacks on his third base. And remember, Flash has this timings probably better than Light. | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
But Flash will win today 3-0 or 3-1 maximum | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
But issue price is too high. | ||
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KrulAsfaltuf
Zimbabwe70 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 12 2020 17:18 KrulAsfaltuf wrote: Watch Zero destroy that old nerd 3-0 Except Flash is younger than Zero lol | ||
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
having looked at zero's usually childish look, people would disregard that Edit: the pun was not intended. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:02 Navane wrote: is Queen an aka of someone? Where did he come from? Zero | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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Deleted User 513418
138 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
If I just had read 3 lines on tl.net I would've known, but I get all my info from yt now  thanks! | ||
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srj
Canada134 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:14 Navane wrote: If I just had read 3 lines on tl.net I would've known, but I get all my info from yt now thanks!Hope not the ones regarding C19. Does this change your feelings going into the match? To be honest I wouldn't root for someone named Queen if I wouldn't know he's actually Zero. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 18:30 superjoppe wrote: 3 m&m rushes ≤10 mins. Easy peasy 3-0. I'm pretty sure (and hope) that won't happen. But yeah, realistically speaking it should be 3-0 or maybe 3-1 for Flash. Rooting for Zero though as always. On April 12 2020 19:15 PVJ wrote: To be honest I wouldn't root for someone named Queen if I wouldn't know he's actually Zero. lol //edit: I think this is very similar to what he and Jaedong did back in the late Kespa era to take games off of godmode Flash on Match Point. Let's see. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:15 PVJ wrote: Hope not the ones regarding C19. Does this change your feelings going into the match? To be honest I wouldn't root for someone named Queen if I wouldn't know he's actually Zero. It totally does change the match, from who the hell is queen? have i been ootl for so long? to awh, its zero! In the end we're all watching multi-match spanning narratives of this group of broodwar heroes. All matches become so much better, the more you know about the players. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:31 Garrl wrote: 0 sunks? Normal not to get any sunks when 2 hatch muta if T doesn't do a pre muta push. Man, I thought Zero had it but I guess the scourge failled to connect to the valkyries in the opening engagement somehow. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:31 Garrl wrote: 0 sunks? Sunks don't do anything. He can't sunk 3 locations enough. Not sure why he gg'ed though. Did he forget to tech to lurkers? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Belladona
Chile127 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3683 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:32 Miragee wrote: Sunks don't do anything. He can't sunk 3 locations enough. Not sure why he gg'ed though. Did he forget to tech to lurkers? Well if he hasn't teched lurkers, then the gg makes a lot of sense..... | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:33 Lorch wrote: Flash did a very similiar Valkyre push in game 1 against zero in their MSL finals 9 years ago. This guy is playing some 4D chest, pretty sure zero is suffering from ptsd now. This made me laugh xD nice one. Zero might have been scared when the fact units showed up and he was stuck on few mutas and scourge against a well turreted terran? (it was just a vulture but still) | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:25 Navane wrote: It totally does change the match, from who the hell is queen? have i been ootl for so long? to awh, its zero! In the end we're all watching multi-match spanning narratives of this group of broodwar heroes. All matches become so much better, the more you know about the players. Agreed. From the 1st match however it doesn't seem to mean much in terms of narrative development. Could've been anyone it was Flash's match. Hopefully Zero wins on Lunar and bounces back | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
at least hes playing the series not the matches individually. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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GTR
51451 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:38 PVJ wrote: I think the supply numbers were like cca. 30 to 79 or something like this and had an army of like 4 lings and 2 mutas rally points cut in half no nydus or lurker tech. I think he was fairly aware of his situation what are you talking about, it was 50 to 70 when ZerO left the game | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:41 TT1 wrote: what are you talking about, it was 50 to 70 when ZerO left the game Hm I must have missed a resupply then. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
better pick it up zero | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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TT1
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
but honestly flash does this build on the map a lot and its not that great | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Katkishka
United States649 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:51 TT1 wrote: funny, that was best case scenario for flash and he still couldn't bust different spawns would've been best case scenario  | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:51 TT1 wrote: funny, that was best case scenario for flash and he still couldn't bust To be fair, the spawning positions were actually worst case scenario for Flash. But he knew that and went for the strat anyways. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:52 nojok wrote: Glad to see zero win but I truly dislike when a player knows 100% a build is coming and still can't do a thing about it. that usually means the b.o is shit On April 12 2020 19:52 razorsuKe wrote: different spawns would've been best case scenario u pick ur builds based on that as well, comp-wise best case scenario for his b.o | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:51 Motivate wrote: these goliath builds flash does are so retarded They're meant to hit way earlier but flash waited so so long to build his barracks because he wanted to hide it. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 19:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Guess he doesn't want to be predictable. But what are you trying to achieve by doing a b.o u can't beat your opponent with in a best case scenario? Seems like bad prep tbh.. I think it's very likely that he feels super uncomfortable going 2 rax aca vs 2h muta. He doesn't open standard bio against it too often. Would like to see him do so tho.. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:08 nojok wrote: This series does not deliver Yeah, Valkyries are a disgusting unit. | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
Three games and not a hydra den in sight yet. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:10 RowdierBob wrote: Why on earth is Zero trying to fight valks with mass muta? It’s the worst unit he could mass against this build. Three games and not a hydra den in sight yet. Maybe we should at least see sunkens?? | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
Yeah that helps...he is trying to get the mutas out so fast and a huge amount of lings for pressure that he isnt making so every counter is a Flash | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:10 RowdierBob wrote: Why on earth is Zero trying to fight valks with mass muta? It’s the worst unit he could mass against this build. Three games and not a hydra den in sight yet. How is a hydra den supposed to help? Lurkers wouldn't finish by the time Flash is already in his nat and hydras aren't going to help against valkyries hunting down the overlords around the map. | ||
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
GO ZERO!!! | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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Katkishka
United States649 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:27 Dante08 wrote: Cmon guys play 1 standard game please not with hitchiker as the last map though... | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
pretty fun | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
On April 12 2020 18:12 PVJ wrote: Hitchhiker gogo gogo~~~ | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:27 nojok wrote: The B in BW stands for Build order today. And the W stands for Win then? | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Motivate
2860 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:28 Disregard wrote: I love the dilemma for BW fans, for a nice standard game or their favorite player to win. Many of us just want Flash to lose for the sake of change, not even rooting for a favorite player. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
Their mindgames in the early game are fun to watch, sure, but that alone is not enough to warrant good games. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:28 RowdierBob wrote: How is this 2:2? Flash easily looks the better player. Tbh, today Flash doesn't look like the better player. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:29 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I like these games. Decisive. Really? Ok This ASL had actually produced a lot of great games up to this stage...but today...well | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:30 nojok wrote: Many of us just want Flash to lose for the sake of change, not even rooting for a favorite player. no i want flash to win this whole thing. so we can see him play random next season! | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:30 nojok wrote: Many of us just want Flash to lose for the sake of change, not even rooting for a favorite player. I'm quite an avid Flash fan and he's won so much I won't even mind that much if he loses lol | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:28 TT1 wrote: Zero countering Flash's fact first by going ling lurk allin. Flash didn't have any scouting info (from his scv) so he had to be safe vs lurks AND mutas, wasn't defended well enough vs lurks tho. pretty fun the success from both game 1 & 3 seems to have been due to the 2 scvs scouting.... seems like Flash's build cuts corners that he cant prepare for both | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:32 ggsimida wrote: no i want flash to win this whole thing. so we can see him play random next season! Yes that would be good for the scene. Disgusting. | ||
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Belladona
Chile127 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:29 Motivate wrote: out of all the maps to bring back and they brought back hitchhiker.. fucking lol Give this man a beer | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21685 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:28 RowdierBob wrote: He tried a build that doesn't seem to work and got faked out once.How is this 2:2? Flash easily looks the better player. Stuff happens. | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:32 Dante08 wrote: I'm quite an avid Flash fan and he's won so much I won't even mind that much if he loses lol I love Flash too but BW >> Flash (or the opposite?) | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:32 weiliem wrote: the success from both game 1 & 3 seems to have been due to the 2 scvs scouting.... seems like Flash's build cuts corners that he cant prepare for both the scouting info he gets from his double scout allows him to hard counter the b.o (2h muta) when he doesn't get any scouting info w/ his scvs he has to respect the threat of both mutas and lurks (which makes him vulnerable) | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:31 KobraKay wrote: Really? Ok This ASL had actually produced a lot of great games up to this stage...but today...well Yeah, seeing long back and forth struggles is great, but I also rather like it when a good mindgame or plan goes together. Flash might look like his valkyrie build he did twice is the answer to 2 hatch muta, but his engagement went well for him both times and good clean execution and the micro involved in the engagements is a pleasure to watch. Zero's first win might look like a case of a BO fail, but Zero had to fight for it; it could had cascaded the other way. This fourth game was just pure mindgame. What's wrong with enjoying that? | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:32 Miragee wrote: Yes that would be good for the scene. Disgusting. in sports having a/few dominant players/teams actually boost interest in that sport, face it, people like to support winners. jordan's bulls, golden state warriors, real madrid, barcelona, tiger woods etc. they boosted the popularity of the sport immensely. so no, flash is actually good for the scene | ||
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Terrorbladder
2718 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:35 ChriS-X wrote: in sports having a/few dominant players/teams actually boost interest in that sport, face it, people like to support winners. jordan's bulls, golden state warriors, real madrid, barcelona, tiger woods etc. they boosted the popularity of the sport immensely. so no, flash is actually good for the scene It's good for popular games, where some people just watch for the social aspect around the game more than the game itself, but in a niche genre like BW I'm not sure the same rule applies. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:35 Garrl wrote: i wish people would stop calling builds "mindgames"; that's not how it works... you pick a build for every map in advance so that you aren't double guessing yourself constantly Atm they're changing and adjusting b.os on the fly (minus the gol rine game, that was a failed 2h counter by FlaSh). When FlaSh wins twice with a valk opener vs 2h muta that forces Zero to do something new, Flash is essentially bullying him off the build. Zero is trying to regain respect for his 2h opener by allining him. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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ChriS-X
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Dangermousecatdog
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nojok
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konadora
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konadora
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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nojok
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konadora
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konadora
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konadora
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
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konadora
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
GOD HAS FALLEN BOW TO YOUR QUEEN | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4773 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
He didn't dive into that mm/valk/tank ball, WENT AROUND stopped drop, like he just KNEW what to do. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
ZvsZ final))) | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:48 razorsuKe wrote: WHAT WHATT?!?!?!?!? Dude... zero's intellect at this moment O_O He didn't dive into that mm/valk/tank ball, WENT AROUND stopped drop, like he just KNEW what to do. he played that absolutely perfectly sunken stalls getting the third gas and getting +1 armor so that it doesnt become a 2 gas all-in sniping that dropship constantly getting scourges and sniping those valks zergling attack on 6 to pull flash's army and eventually costing him that expo zero played this map absolutely perfectly | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:48 RowdierBob wrote: Wowza, great job Zero. Sniping that drop ship was so key. This so much. That one single dropship could have turned the game on its head. | ||
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Katkishka
United States649 Posts
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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alypse
2771 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:48 razorsuKe wrote: WHAT WHATT?!?!?!?!? Dude... zero's intellect at this moment O_O He didn't dive into that mm/valk/tank ball, WENT AROUND stopped drop, like he just KNEW what to do. Yeah, I think that's the game-winning move. Just brilliant. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6590 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
(btw that Flash needs to lose for the sake of BW is a bs argument, you are not going to sustain this on the Soma's, Brain's or Barracks that you have now unless they really step up to provide imense quality. A lot of people are still here for the old time greats) | ||
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srj
Canada134 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: A zvz finals in a tourney played by flash. This is great oh dear god no plz | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Starecat
938 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:49 Sonic_md wrote: YES ZvsZ final))) It would be satanic. Btw why Flash insisted on the same build so many times? Normal bio play wouldn't work? | ||
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:50 KobraKay wrote: Well another not so great game….but at least all the Flash haters should be happy no? :/ (btw that Flash needs to lose for the sake of BW is a bs argument, you are not going to sustain this on the Soma's, Brain's or Barracks that you have now unless they really step up to provide imense quality. A lot of people are still here for the old time greats) FlaSh fans martyrizing themselves, that's a new one. | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:50 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: A zvz finals in a tourney played by flash. This is great I don't think even Zerg players want to watch a ZvZ finals in a tournament like this... right? | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:49 konadora wrote: he played that absolutely perfectly sunken stalls getting the third gas and getting +1 armor so that it doesnt become a 2 gas all-in sniping that dropship constantly getting scourges and sniping those valks zergling attack on 6 to pull flash's army and eventually costing him that expo zero played this map absolutely perfectly I must say I'm really impressed how he handled this map indeed. And I was already a fan before. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:50 konadora wrote: zero saying how he just played as the games went and didn't specifically prepare for today's games per se THE BM | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
Praying for light to win on tuesday so we get a TvZ final! | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
TvT 3rd place match though | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:49 konadora wrote: he played that absolutely perfectly sunken stalls getting the third gas and getting +1 armor so that it doesnt become a 2 gas all-in sniping that dropship constantly getting scourges and sniping those valks zergling attack on 6 to pull flash's army and eventually costing him that expo zero played this map absolutely perfectly was he busting those temples down right at the start? it takes so long to take 'em down and his lings got in at the perfect time. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
not sure if anyone would watch the finals then | ||
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alypse
2771 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
usually zergs go all in on 2-gas, but zero paused muta production after 6-8 mutas to get a 3rd gas, stabilise his economy and ensuring a plan B to fall back on in terms of economy. this slight alteration in his build helped throw Flash off his tempo with the unexpected number of +1 armor mutas | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:51 Cush wrote: Turns out 1 gas valk sucks, who would’ve thought. You need that 2nd gas to get that critical mass of valks. Flash was able to skip tanks on the other maps which made his valk timing stronger (more raxes). On Hitchhiker Z's 3rd is a back expo, Zero just needs to mass sunk 1 spot (nat). | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:52 alypse wrote: Kona, what's Zero saying that makes the casters so excited about? zero saying how winning flash means winning all Terrans, so the casters were already congratulation him in advance for the ASL finals victory, so zero clarified "oh but light might lose and anything can happen in zvz" lmao | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:51 Disregard wrote: I don't think even Zerg players want to watch a ZvZ finals in a tournament like this... right? Well, I don't. Light has a good chance to beat Soma as well. The last series a few months ago went 4-1 in favour of Light (Ro4 KSL4). | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:53 Anc13nt wrote: wow i was not expecting this result at all ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/LonNaNF.png) I mean you and a whole bunch of other people. | ||
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itsdaniel
Austria334 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:52 ggsimida wrote: soma actually has a good chance to win it holy shit, an amateur winning it! been a really long time since we had a potential royal roader! | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:52 ggsimida wrote: soma actually has a good chance to win it holy shit, an amateur winning it! This is actually a pretty realistic assessment. Light's not looking as strong as he was previously and soma's making really good plays. If soma ends up taking that, then it's a near 50/50 zvz (I'm assuming, haven't actually seen how good soma's zvz is) | ||
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alypse
2771 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:54 konadora wrote: zero saying how winning flash means winning all Terrans, so the casters were already congratulation him in advance for the ASL finals victory, so zero clarified "oh but light might lose and anything can happen in zvz" lmao Lol, thank you. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:54 konadora wrote: zero saying how winning flash means winning all Terrans, so the casters were already congratulation him in advance for the ASL finals victory, so zero clarified "oh but light might lose and anything can happen in zvz" lmao fuck ZvZ lmao | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:51 Ej_ wrote: FlaSh fans martyrizing themselves, that's a new one. Not a Flash fan per se….but one can spot a bad argument when one sees one. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:53 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You guys have no hope for a TvZ finals? Light is already written off? our preview has light, I'm rooting for light even though I love soma. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:54 konadora wrote: been a really long time since we had a potential royal roader! he qualified last season, hes not a royal roader | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:51 Cush wrote: Turns out 1 gas valk sucks, who would’ve thought. You need that 2nd gas to get that critical mass of valks. He even built a dropship..... | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:54 konadora wrote: zero saying how winning flash means winning all Terrans, so the casters were already congratulation him in advance for the ASL finals victory, so zero clarified "oh but light might lose and anything can happen in zvz" lmao Thanks. And it's all kinda true. After Zero beats Flash, who would think Light stands a chance? | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:55 BLinD-RawR wrote: he qualified last season, hes not a royal roader oh damn i thought he was royal roader, my bad still regardless, great to see a rookie get this far | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:55 nojok wrote: Just read the title of the preview, writer curse in action. pray that soma vs light will all go to late game | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:55 konadora wrote: oh damn i thought he was royal roader, my bad still regardless, great to see a rookie get this far no worries, I made the same mistake | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
match point neo sylphid escalade polypoid horizon no hitchhiker lol | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 konadora wrote: light vs soma match point neo sylphid escalade polypoid horizon no hitchhiker lol A LITTLE RAY OF HOPE | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 konadora wrote: btw this is the first time Flash has lost in Ro4 in ASL apparently flash has only lost in Bo5s in ASL. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 Puosu wrote: zvz finals should be best of 7 or 9 to offset the luck factor and the game length imo. honestly hoping if its ZvZ then there should be at least 1 late game zvz | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 Puosu wrote: zvz finals should be best of 7 or 9 to offset the luck factor and the game length imo. finals are bo7 iirc | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 Puosu wrote: zvz finals should be best of 7 or 9 to offset the luck factor and the game length imo. its already Bo7 | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
i think it was KSL that was bo7 ok im wrong its already bo7 in ASL finals | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 konadora wrote: honestly hoping if its ZvZ then there should be at least 1 late game zvz knowing zero he'll go queens | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 konadora wrote: btw this is the first time Flash has lost in Ro4 in ASL apparently He only lost like what twice before right? There's a lot of firsts when Flash loses. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
one of the most entertaining ZvZs.. never forget | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
Late game ZvZ is epic but it happens once every other year on broadcast. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 Anc13nt wrote: i wonder why Flash was so reluctant to go 2 rax vessel tech this series He tends to over invent sometimes in TvZ, that finals vs Effort was a great example. | ||
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ChriS-X
Malaysia1374 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:00 konadora wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvXdqoizlw&feature=emb_title one of the most entertaining ZvZs.. never forget ah yes, nice of great to go late game too | ||
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Motivate
2860 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:00 konadora wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvXdqoizlw&feature=emb_title one of the most entertaining ZvZs.. never forget sigh... i miss great. he was known for bringing zvz to hive tech. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:00 konadora wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvXdqoizlw&feature=emb_title one of the most entertaining ZvZs.. never forget dude the bigfile one is even better | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
stop i can only contain so much edit: for those who wanna watch | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:58 konadora wrote: i think it was KSL that was bo7 ok im wrong its already bo7 in ASL finals Eh? Honestly not a fan of Bo7 but alright then. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:04 konadora wrote: stop i can only contain so much edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHqtmfIdmvE&feature=emb_title for those who wanna watch this is why I ask for hive tech games every Zero ZvZ series.... | ||
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GTR
51451 Posts
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itsdaniel
Austria334 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
updated second post please vote on poll, best season of ASL? | ||
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att
128 Posts
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
Light should buy Zero a dinner for this one. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
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Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:25 BLinD-RawR wrote: we could still get a ZvZ finals I'm ok with that. Who could predict the outcome of Zero vs Soma? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50121 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:28 Burned Toast wrote: I'm ok with that. Who could predict the outcome of Zero vs Soma? not me, I'm staying the fuck away from doing coverage on that finals | ||
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thislooksgreat1
59 Posts
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:18 BLinD-RawR wrote: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27576210 updated second post please vote on poll, best season of ASL? Imho it is one of the best ASLs and that is because of the map pool, especially Inner Coven. It broke the felt stagnacy and forced the players to use some real quick tactical decision, starsense and ingenuity instead of playing the same standard builds all over again. In a certain sense, it brought a bit more to light who are the greatest in playing the game and not who are the ones who can follow a build in the most exact way. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
On April 12 2020 20:57 Puosu wrote: zvz finals should be best of 7 or 9 to offset the luck factor and the game length imo. Ignoring that it's already best of 7, it probably doesn't actually reduce variance that much | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 12 2020 12:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: I would say without a doubt. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I am convinced that variety is a good thing, Flash has already won an ungodly amount of ASL. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:18 BLinD-RawR wrote: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=27576210 updated second post please vote on poll, best season of ASL? This season of ASL was great before today but it somewhat disapoints me that a lot of people here will vote for that now just because of today, when today and probably the Ro8 towards the end were the worse matches of the season :/ | ||
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Zaibakk
101 Posts
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Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
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lamarine
586 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:23 Burned Toast wrote: Thank god we avoided the sad show of Flash vs Light finals! It would have been so one-sided and anticlimactic. Light should buy Zero a dinner for this one. Zero should by Light a dinner since Light trained him for Flash :D | ||
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radadaundandan
Bulgaria3148 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:23 Burned Toast wrote: Thank god we avoided the sad show of Flash vs Light finals! It would have been so one-sided and anticlimactic. Light should buy Zero a dinner for this one. Flash vs Soma would have been the first choice followed for me by Light vs Zero, Flash vs Light and finally Zero vs Soma. I rather take a TvT finals than a ZvZ! | ||
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Aminus
Bulgaria35 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
I hope Light vs Soma delivers as well and I don't care how the finals will turn, I just want to watch those stunning players have it at each other. This is such a treat! The best ASL so far, I think. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
GGs | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
On April 13 2020 01:18 JoinTheRain wrote: I must say I love Flash as much as the next Joe, I really do. But every time he gets beaten in a offline tourney it makes me giggly and warm inside. Because I know the dedication and skill it takes to beat versus the best player ever in a BoX series. Truly a huge accomplishment for zero, amazing games from him. That's why Flash's matches are always fun to watch for me. He either dominates his opponent as per usual, or his opponent puts up a great fight and maybe even pulls an upset like Zero just did. In either case, I get to enjoy some great starcraft. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4195 Posts
+1 to that | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
This goliath build is interesting and props to ZerO for adjusting his gameplay as Konadora mentioned earlier, but it doesn't feel anywhere as lethal as the 1-1-1 so why would Flash even bother going for it? Did I miss something? I saw Sorry use it earlier in ASL to great effect and I figure it's a good counter to the 2 hatch that seems to be much more common nowadays, but I just really really miss seeing Flash going 5 rax +1 with vessels and the late game TvZ that I've grown accustomed to. Now, granted, the games Flash won were solid overall in terms of how well he pushed, micro seemed ok and the macro was on point from what I can tell. Likewise, ZerO did a great job denying the scout in game 4 which is something Flash relied on greatly in previous games that he won which allowed his bust to work. He had a fantastic game 5 on Hitchhiker against Flash of all people who said he prepared for all games and I was really pleased with that game. So yes, I'm conflicted! I'm excited to see a new ASL champion and that Flash was upset by a Zerg of all, but for whatever reason, in both this series and the one against Action, Flash looked surprisingly mortal and I have no clue if I should be chalking this up to the efforts of his opponents, Flash trying to innovate a new style etc... Probably a combination of everything. So congrats to Zero and well done. Would've liked longer macro games, but you played well to beat Flash at his weakness much like Soma vs Bisu. Looking forward to the finals and hoping to see a Light vs Zero TvZ finals! :D On April 12 2020 12:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: Far from it imo. For me, the best ASL will undoubtedly be ASL6. The game quality was great and the storyline particularly wrote itself. That's not to say that the game quality hasn't been high this ASL, but in my mind, ASL6 was one of the best ASLs we've had and potentially will have once Flash eventually retires to the military. The "Can they beat Flash?" will always be on everyone's mind. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1952 Posts
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Lazyer
United States343 Posts
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
And 2 tanks. That build in game 5 was very different than his other Valk-builds. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
did he scan the den before it was cancelled? | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 13 2020 04:22 mishimaBeef wrote: in game 5, not gonna lie when i saw the first tank i was confused did he scan the den before it was cancelled? Didn't watch it back but in such a narrow space it's probably also not a bad idea to push through sunkens with some tanks. I mean, if there would be no tanks and as many sunkens clustered, good luck pushing through that with m&m. I think that picked off dropship really made all the difference. If flash had just got that drop off and killed the 3rd... Would've had made a huge difference. Instead now he didnt do any dmg and lost 10 supply (dropship + stuff inside) without any return. Really brilliant move by Zero, although I guess he mostly just wanted to cut reinforcements (which would also have been damn nice, but not quite as deadly/decisive). | ||
Waxangel
United States33389 Posts
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
even though i don't like a mirracle matchups, i want ZvZ final. Soma be able to beat Light. 50/50 | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 13 2020 04:33 Waxangel wrote: oh, how quaint, God died on Easter haha wow good one. my world has been rocked. grats to zero he played a great series | ||
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Barneyk
Sweden305 Posts
On April 13 2020 04:22 mishimaBeef wrote: in game 5, not gonna lie when i saw the first tank i was confused did he scan the den before it was cancelled? Tank pushing to break down the sunkens is a pretty common, and good, strategy. Zero bringing down the temples and attacking the mineral only with those lings really messed everything up. And Zero getting SO many sunkens while not engaging with his mutas and instead picking of dropship and reinforcements was a great play. | ||
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Cush
United States646 Posts
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 13 2020 05:56 Cush wrote: I don’t think there was a single defiler or vessel made in the entire series. Flash or Zero kept dying to mid game shit lol. I hope we see some longer games tomorrow. Was just their strategies I would say.. It would do or die... Exactly why I didn't like this series much. Both went in with strategies that would either end the game (well opening muta not so much I guess, but still, vs a strategy like that if you dont switch up right away you're committed) or result in a loss. I also feel stuff like the lurker all-in, yea I'm sure it's strong against the builds flash was doing, but you end up with shitty games. I think valkyrie is also pretty much do or die though, I mean you either kill their mutas and win or you dont and lose. It was nice seeing how Queen tried to prevent that (i think in game 1?), but then switching tech just took too long and he had to stay on muta and lost pretty soon after. Maybe if this stuff was more common, it could still transition into a standard game, but yea, unfortunately not the case today. As someone else mentioned before though, Flash really looked so killable today (he did too vs Action), can't remember the last time that was the case. In that way I guess that's still the big win for everyone. | ||
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Siz)Beggar
United States339 Posts
On April 13 2020 03:04 BigFan wrote: This is a conflicting result haha. On the one hand, I'm glad that I was wrong and ZerO pulled through but on the other, this is giving me flashes of Flash vs EffOrt and not so much for the hype, but rather that it seems like Flash had a certain build in mind that he absolutely wanted to work on stage and lost as a result. The big difference is that in ASL6, it felt like Flash was playing well enough (he had the ASL2/3/4 title+Ro8 ASL5 finish) and the 1-1-1 was slaughtering Zergs left and right. What was it, 75-80% winrate for Flash against all the top Zergs on average, if not higher. This goliath build is interesting and props to ZerO for adjusting his gameplay as Konadora mentioned earlier, but it doesn't feel anywhere as lethal as the 1-1-1 so why would Flash even bother going for it? Did I miss something? I saw Sorry use it earlier in ASL to great effect and I figure it's a good counter to the 2 hatch that seems to be much more common nowadays, but I just really really miss seeing Flash going 5 rax +1 with vessels and the late game TvZ that I've grown accustomed to. Now, granted, the games Flash won were solid overall in terms of how well he pushed, micro seemed ok and the macro was on point from what I can tell. Likewise, ZerO did a great job denying the scout in game 4 which is something Flash relied on greatly in previous games that he won which allowed his bust to work. He had a fantastic game 5 on Hitchhiker against Flash of all people who said he prepared for all games and I was really pleased with that game. So yes, I'm conflicted! I'm excited to see a new ASL champion and that Flash was upset by a Zerg of all, but for whatever reason, in both this series and the one against Action, Flash looked surprisingly mortal and I have no clue if I should be chalking this up to the efforts of his opponents, Flash trying to innovate a new style etc... Probably a combination of everything. So congrats to Zero and well done. Would've liked longer macro games, but you played well to beat Flash at his weakness much like Soma vs Bisu. Looking forward to the finals and hoping to see a Light vs Zero TvZ finals! :D Far from it imo. For me, the best ASL will undoubtedly be ASL6. The game quality was great and the storyline particularly wrote itself. That's not to say that the game quality hasn't been high this ASL, but in my mind, ASL6 was one of the best ASLs we've had and potentially will have once Flash eventually retires to the military. The "Can they beat Flash?" will always be on everyone's mind. Its because flash said that the korean zergs had figured out the 1-1-1 build and the risks that came with it were that if you mis micro at all and mess up even once it means gg for you so i think he was looking for a safer build to try since the 1-1-1 has been figured out and only works as a surprise if you opponent has never seen is | ||
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razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
https://tl.net/liquibet/betcomments.php?liquibet=26 or accidentally clicked zerO Either way pleasant surprise | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:13 Siz)Beggar wrote: Its because flash said that the korean zergs had figured out the 1-1-1 build and the risks that came with it were that if you mis micro at all and mess up even once it means gg for you so i think he was looking for a safer build to try since the 1-1-1 has been figured out and only works as a surprise if you opponent has never seen is I feel the difference is not that big though, lose your valks and you lose with this build. I mean 1-1-1 looked stronger to me (possibly also because they didnt know how to deal with it) than this. I honestly feel these valk builds didnt look all that strong. Flash got his 2nd scv scout to at least confirm his suspicions in the games he won, but is this really a good build? I don't think so to be honest. I think this valk build has no future to be honest, it was somewhat new now (we've seen it before though), he still managed to win 2 games with it, but it was just crap in the end. I'm not sure why he didn't just play SK terran style. I feel it would be so much stronger, but yea it wouldn't land you the 2 almost freewins he did get from this strat. He did end up losing 3 because of it too though, it almost makes me wonder if he wants to play these do or die strats because of his hand troubles. Either way it robs the spectators from real nice games imo. But yea, I know im pretty much alone in this, as many people feel these were freaking awesome games. Either way, I really feel this Flash was nothing special and these games were pretty much a disgrace to his god status. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
On April 13 2020 01:13 Aminus wrote: Flash is in a slump, or just no practice. Game 5 was terrible on his side, decision making was so bad and his lack of skill in micro was so obvious. Zero was perfectly prepared, well deserved. Same for zero. I saw idle drones in Games 1 and 2 and lots of bad rally points. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2585 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:49 CobaltBlu wrote: Zero played really well but I'm not sure why Flash was pushing these builds so hard. A lot of those timings looked really fragile and we didn't see extended macro games. As flash was aiming to gain huge advantages in the mid-game, for whatsoever reason, the pushes he was making was really ‘semi-all in’-ish to counter muta+lings. The Valks could only go for overlord killing sprees (e.g, Canata vs Jaedong) | ||
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:49 CobaltBlu wrote: I'm not sure why Flash was pushing these builds so hard. . Most likely because he knows he is FlaSh and can pull things off other players can't, and also because of Game 1 on Match Point where he just won straight out after killing 3rd. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I loved how the valk opening made ZvT look like a bit closer a ZvP game. Damn I was expecting the mutas to die and for Flash to win it everytime the mutas engaged with the valks. The level of mindgames is amazing from both sides. To all the fanboys, if Queen did not have the star sense to figure it out Flash's new build on the spot, there would have been endless praise for the innovation to TvZ from Flash by all of you (unlike Artosis, who thought identified that the build was super strong and he's practising it now). Instead we have you all (wholly or partially) blaming the losses on the new innovation, which I don't understand why, because Flash won 2/4 of the games where he went valks by completely steamrolling Queen, while he lost 1 game due to a successful allin (which would have worked against many other TvZ openers) and another game where the map is nonstandard and Flash had to adjust his valk build to include early tanks and a dropship suit the map while Queen managed to get his lings into the mineral only. Flash not anticipating the lings has nothing to do with the valk build. Most top zergs including Jaedong in his prime would have probably gotten rolled over repeatedly to this innovation. As a zerg I think the valk opening is extremely strong and I'm terrified of it, because we can't play like we do in ZvP (scourge->hydras or just mass hydras, because then bio would kill us) and going mutas is extremely risky. I believe that Queen would have probably lost if g5 were mutas vs valks again on a standard map like CB. Imagine if the 3 (irrc) tanks and a dropship were all valks. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
If Flash committed to Valks and Goliaths, there was a reason. Back when he was facing Jaedong in the MSL and OSL (many times in 2010), he often avoided using basic SK Terran builds for trickier timings. I specifically remember a finals game where he smashed Jaedong with a Valk timing and another where he smashed Jaedong with a biomech timing. He also used a lot of bunker rushes against Jaedong, in addition to 14CC openers. Basically, he took all kinds of risks, and when the dust settled, he was the king and Jaedong wasn't anymore. I don't think he felt particularly favored against Jaedong in a late-game SK Terran vs Zerg war. Flash is great at SK Terran but Jaedong just wasn't the person you wanted to be doing that against. Not that he wouldn't have more than just a fighting chance --- of course he would --- but you have to take your very best chance. The same thing might have been going on here. Zero is really good in those big, long games. Flash probably thought his odds were better this way. I still think Flash was the favorite 60% to 40% today, and my guess is he thought his edge was bigger with the mind games and timings than with builds aimed at an SK Terran late game. Maybe his odds in such a late game are more like 55% to 45%, or 50% to 50%. Who knows. But Flash doesn't do builds because they suck. Flash loses because the other player rises to the occasion and plays brilliantly. | ||
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
I felt that Flash picked goofy strategies. Why didn't he play straight up such as 5 rax +1, full on mech, or even two port wraith? Did he EVER make a Science Vessel in five games? I can't understand that. If Flash played straight up he would have won 3-0. Instead he pulls out goofy two factory into bio play with a few expensive valks for air cover multiple times. It was frustrating to watch. Flash doesn't need those gimmicks to win. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
On April 13 2020 11:21 Geographer wrote: If Flash played straight up he would have won 3-0 ... Flash doesn't need those gimmicks to win. Did you see his series against Action? His performance in straight up games did not look great. Gimmicks probably have him the best chance he could have had. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
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Geographer
United States185 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
Even if it's the case that playing a maximum of five long macro games in one sitting is not too much of a strain for Flash, given his physical condition, it's understandable if he'd rather use these more do-or-die-style builds. In any case, I really hope Flash will be back with a vengeance next season. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
But it was risky with only one gas on hitchhiker. I think he prob would’ve been better going mass bio rather than tanks. Could’ve hit a nice timing up the middle. But the key move in this game was zero sniping the drop ship. That swing the momentum his way. If that gets into zero’s base it harms his eco enough that flash gets his third up and crushes the mid to late game. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:10 RowdierBob wrote: Flash’s valk builds were really strong and the two games he won were very one sided. But it was risky with only one gas on hitchhiker. I think he prob would’ve been better going mass bio rather than tanks. Could’ve hit a nice timing up the middle. But the key move in this game was zero sniping the drop ship. That swing the momentum his way. If that gets into zero’s base it harms his eco enough that flash gets his third up and crushes the mid to late game. those 2 tanks were quite a headscratcher . i was very surprised that he didn't win the game where he opened with 2 factories then transitioned to bio. his push was very strong and zero was prepared for mech only until the push was moving and the 2 sunks just barely saved him. after that game i was like wow flash can lose.. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:47 Alejandrisha wrote: those 2 tanks were quite a headscratcher . i was very surprised that he didn't win the game where he opened with 2 factories then transitioned to bio. his push was very strong and zero was prepared for mech only until the push was moving and the 2 sunks just barely saved him. after that game i was like wow flash can lose.. Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 13 2020 06:13 Siz)Beggar wrote: Its because flash said that the korean zergs had figured out the 1-1-1 build and the risks that came with it were that if you mis micro at all and mess up even once it means gg for you so i think he was looking for a safer build to try since the 1-1-1 has been figured out and only works as a surprise if you opponent has never seen is Sure. I tend to agree and I feel like this sorry build is meant to counter the current 2 hatch muta meta. It's probably also easier on the wrists since you have less to control, but I also wish that flash tried another build when he realized that he spawned so close on horizon. Why not the valk build there? I'm sure there's a good reason for it. On April 13 2020 13:09 reincremate wrote: Maybe wrist issues is the main reason Flash opted for mid-game killing blows instead of builds that are more likely to result in longer games? I remember reading something along those lines after his ASL 6 finals loss to Effort going 1-1-1 every game, but I don't remember if it was a translation or just speculation. Even if it's the case that playing a maximum of five long macro games in one sitting is not too much of a strain for Flash, given his physical condition, it's understandable if he'd rather use these more do-or-die-style builds. In any case, I really hope Flash will be back with a vengeance next season. You're not wrong. If I recall properly, Flash during the days of 1-1-1 (around that period) stated that the max he can do 5 rax +1 was three times a day. I can only presume his condition worsened since he still plays the game even if he's taking precautions. It would also explain why he's trying hard to make this sorry build work because of the current meta+wrist issues. Like some other people, I question why he never tried 2 rax builds or others and can only hope that we get some information from him in the near future. On April 13 2020 13:57 FlaShFTW wrote: Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. Are you talking about game 5 for the valk build? Reason I ask is because Flash destroyed ZerO in game 1 on MP and game 3 on polypoid with the valk build. He won their first engagement pretty well (ZerO lost everything to barely any losses to Flash in game 3). If you mean game 5, ZerO had some nice valk snipes in the middle of the map and got another valk near Flash's mineral only. Not to mention that Flash had to stop making valks to make a dropship which ZerO sniped right away. Dropship was odd to me because it was the right idea, but he moved it right into OL range instead of trying to skirt it around the edge of the map as usual, but losing that was a big loss imo. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
Wrong: omg Flash was so dumb. Right: Flash knows more than me and I don't agree with what he did. What can I learn from the fact that his decision was different from mine? | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 13 2020 14:56 Djabanete wrote: I'm impressed at how many people in this thread know more about TvZ builds than Flash. I think it's perfectly reasonable to question why he went for the build he did when there seem to be other options as well. After all, most of us are noobs at the game in comparison. | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 13 2020 13:57 FlaShFTW wrote: Pretty easy to win game 2 when your decision making tree between either backstabbing or defending was reduced to both choices because of close air distance that allowed him to attack AND defend basically at once. One cross spawn or standard map with corner mains Zero would've had to defend or commit to backstab and the game would've extended longer. Valk build is trash, somehow Zero countered it by just building more mutas lmfao. The timing is really awful when Zero just takes fast 3rd behind the muta and valk push comes out so slow because you have to wait for 2-3 valks before pushing. If the whole point of your build is to counter muta and they just build more muta, it's not working. Wished he would just do standard 2 rax for a game but guess not. ??? 2 hatch muta into fast 3rd base relies on mutalisks. Game 1 and 4 are as standard as zvt today is. Its not like zerg can just build 4 sunkens, hydraden, lurker aspect and build lurkers with 2 hatch. Zergs need mutalisks to keep terran back while building economy with third gas. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 13 2020 14:57 BigFan wrote: I think it's perfectly reasonable to question why he went for the build he did when there seem to be other options as well. After all, most of us are noobs at the game in comparison. I totally agree with questioning. I have some questions myself, and I'd love to hear Flash or another progamer talk about the ins and outs of the match we just saw. Some people take it a step too far by saying "If he'd just done XYZ he would have won 3-0" as if Flash had never thought of doing XYZ. Edit: You could turn the question around by saying: I assume Flash was winning in practice (or in his head) using his Polypoid and Hitchhiker strategies. What did Zero do so unusually well that Flash's strategies looked easy to counter? We could look at it from the Zerg perspective rather than the Terran perspective. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Zaibakk
101 Posts
Actually Flash's BOs are on paper good counters to 2h muta, BETTER than 2rax builds (or any other build like 111 of full mech). With 2rax builds you can't do nothing until vessels are out, just turtle in base and hope to not die, and by the time they do (at least 10:00, supposing your first vessel is not sniped!) zerg has 3/4 bases and you are been harrassed hard the whole time. From this position if zerg does not make mistakes is a zerg win the majority of time... this is how powerful is the 2h muta revolution by Zero! 111 is too fragile and biomech seems better than full mech vs 2h muta. Flash is looking forward at the new meta in order to beat those strong super aggressive 2h muta whom succeed to mantain map control for such a long time (in the same way he tried to innovate with 1-1-1 when he thought full bio was about to be figured out by zergs) and both biomech and biovalks are good counters right now. Keeping that in mind, we can try to understand tactical/micro mistakes by Flash. We take game 2 as an example: Game 2 (@09:05): Flash knew mutalisks leaving his base and are coming back. He has now 2 options: 1) Pull the trigger anyway, while the sunkens are in progress 2) Pull a bit back and regroup with reinforces Flash takes the riskiest choice, maybe because he thought he already had suffered too much damage in mainbase. And he lost the engage (and the game with it). Now there is just one question we should ask ourselves: Could Flash have won this engage with a better micro? The engage starts at 09:17 and Flash decide to not micro at all until 09:28 (when the engage is probably already lost). Could have Flash do better? Could the marines be moved a bit behind goliaths to be in a safe position? (you want to tank with goliath and do dps with marines) Or should he patrol-move goliaths backwards? If the answer is: no, he could not have won this engage in any way, then probably he should pull back -> tactical/"decision making" mistake. If the anwser is: yes, he could have won this engage, then he was a -> micro mistake (anyway, Zero strategic plan, tactical decisions and mechanics were superb in this game). That's IMHO the way we should reason about those games, not just blaiming build orders. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
On April 13 2020 17:34 Zaibakk wrote: Game 2 (@09:05): Flash knew mutalisks leaving his base and are coming back. He has now 2 options: 1) Pull the trigger anyway, while the sunkens are in progress 2) Pull a bit back and regroup with reinforces Flash takes the riskiest choice, maybe because he thought he already had suffered too much damage in mainbase. And he lost the engage (and the game with it). Now there is just one question we should ask ourselves: Could Flash have won this engage with a better micro? The engage starts at 09:17 and Flash decide to not micro at all until 09:28 (when the engage is probably already lost). Could have Flash do better? Could the marines be moved a bit behind goliaths to be in a safe position? (you want to tank with goliath and do dps with marines) Or should he patrol-move goliaths backwards? The whole time between 9:17 and 9:28 his screen was on the battlefield. He was on 350APM during that time. My wild guess is that he used that APM to micro. In that game he tried to use the build that Sorry pioneered. Sorry used that build a couple of times and won comfortably. The idea of the build is to let zerg guess if the terran will go mech or will switch to bio after first few goliaths. Flash tried to use it again, after it failed for him against Action. It failed for him again. Part of the reason is obviously the ultra-short distance between spawning positions. And that's the bad feature of that map. Depending on the starting positions it can be comfortable or very hard to tvz. Though terran is a very flexible race and given enough time they will probably figure out a build that allows them to survive the first 10 minutes in those spawning positions. | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
On April 13 2020 15:51 whaski wrote: ??? 2 hatch muta into fast 3rd base relies on mutalisks. Game 1 and 4 are as standard as zvt today is. Its not like zerg can just build 4 sunkens, hydraden, lurker aspect and build lurkers with 2 hatch. Zergs need mutalisks to keep terran back while building economy with third gas. Yeah, I know it relies on mutas. So a buidl that FlaSh designed that revolves around countering mutas... lost to more mutas. That's why the valk build seems so bad because how do you lose to the very thing you're trying to counter. It's like if Protoss goes 2 stargate corsairs and Zerg just builds more mutas to counter. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On April 13 2020 22:54 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah, I know it relies on mutas. So a buidl that FlaSh designed that revolves around countering mutas... lost to more mutas. Only that it didn't. Can you please watch the games again? Flash lost g2 with goliath-marine and game 4 to lurkers (with goliath again). He only lost vs mutas with valkyries in g5 and I think we can chase down quite a few reasons why that happened (people already did in this thread). So Flash won 2 games with valks (g1 and 3) vs mutas and lost 1. I have no idea how anyone can come to the conclusion that the valk build sucks just from this series... | ||
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whaski
Finland577 Posts
On April 13 2020 22:54 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah, I know it relies on mutas. So a buidl that FlaSh designed that revolves around countering mutas... lost to more mutas. That's why the valk build seems so bad because how do you lose to the very thing you're trying to counter. It's like if Protoss goes 2 stargate corsairs and Zerg just builds more mutas to counter. Maybe I then missed something, because in matchpoint Zero got rolled, he even had +1 on mutas. Same in game 4, Zero even got jump on m&m and was still crushed. Hitchiker was upphill battle, and Zero played amazingly with stalling the push, sniping dropship and backstabbing with lings. And Flash had only 1 gas. To me this optimization when you delay academy and rush to star port seems quite good compared how much every terran struggles against Soulkey, Soma and Zero when playing 2 rax academy. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Serves Flash right for repeatedly vetoing the best map in the pool | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
and .... well.. win obviously | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 13 2020 23:39 Miragee wrote: Only that it didn't. Can you please watch the games again? Flash lost g2 with goliath-marine and game 4 to lurkers (with goliath again). He only lost vs mutas with valkyries in g5 and I think we can chase down quite a few reasons why that happened (people already did in this thread). So Flash won 2 games with valks (g1 and 3) vs mutas and lost 1. I have no idea how anyone can come to the conclusion that the valk build sucks just from this series... He's extremely confused because we've had several people mention this and I asked him what he was talking about in my previous post too. Flash won 2/3 games with valks and lost game 5 due to a host of reasons. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10158 Posts
On April 13 2020 23:40 whaski wrote: Maybe I then missed something, because in matchpoint Zero got rolled, he even had +1 on mutas. Same in game 4, Zero even got jump on m&m and was still crushed. Hitchiker was upphill battle, and Zero played amazingly with stalling the push, sniping dropship and backstabbing with lings. And Flash had only 1 gas. To me this optimization when you delay academy and rush to star port seems quite good compared how much every terran struggles against Soulkey, Soma and Zero when playing 2 rax academy. I have never seen burrow play to work when its used to ambush terran army. I honestly feel that any zerg trying it is trolling. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 14 2020 03:20 FlaShFTW wrote: I have never seen burrow play to work when its used to ambush terran army. I honestly feel that any zerg trying it is trolling. I think in this case there were also just way too little lings though. Although I do think he should have attacked with the muta first to let them tank at least some of the dmg and perhaps try to abuse Flash's attempts to micro instead of the lings just pretty much insta-dying. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On April 13 2020 22:54 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah, I know it relies on mutas. So a buidl that FlaSh designed that revolves around countering mutas... lost to more mutas. That's why the valk build seems so bad because how do you lose to the very thing you're trying to counter. It's like if Protoss goes 2 stargate corsairs and Zerg just builds more mutas to counter. It's funny because that's kind of a thing rn LOL | ||
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Moridin
Bulgaria164 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Flash owning Zero, just like on Sunday games 1 & 3 Now in game 5 along with other reasons, to me it seemed his build was not refined enough, plus he made uncharacteristic decisions like: - showing the first marine when he was hiding the barrack, then it was easy for Zero to exclude a number of other builds - subpar valk and group control in game 5, marines not routed, especially for his usual play. - Not last, expecting lurkers and making tanks instead of more marines, which off course is all due to great mind games and play of Zero Anyhow well deserved and really happy to see Zero in the final! (same time upset as Flash fan) | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On April 14 2020 04:27 Moridin wrote: MSL Final between Flash and Zero from 9 years ago with same/similar Valk strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi8DGqn9_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3WYPcpetzg + Show Spoiler + Flash owning Zero, just like on Sunday games 1 & 3 Now in game 5 along with other reasons, to me it seemed his build was not refined enough, plus he made uncharacteristic decisions like: - showing the first marine when he was hiding the barrack, then it was easy for Zero to exclude a number of other builds - subpar valk and group control in game 5, marines not routed, especially for his usual play. - Not last, expecting lurkers and making tanks instead of more marines, which off course is all due to great mind games and play of Zero Anyhow well deserved and really happy to see Zero in the final! (same time upset as Flash fan) I'm not sure if the tanks were just for lurkers, what is he gonna do without tanks? If Zero would just sunken up there's no way you're gonna break that with just m&m on that map and it's the only easy route to go to his part of the map. You basically have to either drop or go through the temples if mid is blocked. Also don't think showing the first marine was a very big deal? What would be different if he didnt? I don't think it would change much at all. The overlord basically scouted the path from the Z base to the T base, so he certainly wouldn't be afraid of proxies. I don't think there's really anything that could surprise him or kill him without having time to react (and thus cause Zero to overreact in some way). | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 14 2020 04:27 Moridin wrote: MSL Final between Flash and Zero from 9 years ago with same/similar Valk strat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi8DGqn9_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3WYPcpetzg + Show Spoiler + Flash owning Zero, just like on Sunday games 1 & 3 Now in game 5 along with other reasons, to me it seemed his build was not refined enough, plus he made uncharacteristic decisions like: - showing the first marine when he was hiding the barrack, then it was easy for Zero to exclude a number of other builds - subpar valk and group control in game 5, marines not routed, especially for his usual play. - Not last, expecting lurkers and making tanks instead of more marines, which off course is all due to great mind games and play of Zero Anyhow well deserved and really happy to see Zero in the final! (same time upset as Flash fan) The tanks make sense when you look at it from his perspective. He was planning to push down the middle it seems. You can assume this from the fact that he didn't bother to kill the temples. When you consider this, if ZerO had gone lurkers, mnm would die a painful death due to the narrow middle. Having said that, ZerO didn't go lurkers, but he did get a den then canceled it. If Flash scouted it building with a scan and figured lurkers (2 would hold that middle indefinitely), he needed either tanks or vessels to combat them or to leave much sooner to set up a mini-contain with mnm outside the exp where he would've had a chance to at least micro (wasn't gonna do this). Seeing as you can't make vessels since his gameplan is to make valks for the muta threat which Flash correctly identifies, the only option left is to make several tanks so he made 3 and pushed with some mnm and 3 valks. That's a strong army. As to why he didn't continue sieging the exp, my guess is that he figured that his supply line was exposed and he'll get tanks picked off with mutas while ZerO would just keep building more sunkens. This was the same scenario in GGPlay vs Hwasin (or maybe it was Iris) and GGPlay came out on top in that scenario. I agree that his control wasn't the usual in the last game. Plus, ZerO tried to bait him and used the map to his advantage, including the zerglings taking out the mineral only which was big as well as the snipe on the dropship right as it moved out. Flash was confident in his build at least. In terms of showing the first marine, it was important for him to prevent the drone from entering his main so hiding it feels kinda useless since as you said, he had to reveal the marine regardless. Granted, I can't remember when the drone scouted (it did, right? haha) but if it was an earlier rax, likely would've hit earlier I believe. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5220 Posts
Are Valks going to descend or not? Will we explore the mythical late-game? Escalade is in. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
A short air distance makes it easy for Z to threaten with mutas. The start locations on Polypoid worked out well for Zero since the air distance was much shorter than the ground distance. Zero used that to his advantage. Edit: There used to be a proleague map called Battle Royale with only two start locations. The ground distance was long (IIRC there was also a short ground path with removable obstacles) and the air distance was absurdly short. No team ever sent a non-Zerg except for one or two attempts at TvZ sniping (which failed, I think). | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1707 Posts
Flash requested to play on this map and lost. Cant remember whether he put up a fight or not. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On April 14 2020 03:20 FlaShFTW wrote: I have never seen burrow play to work when its used to ambush terran army. I honestly feel that any zerg trying it is trolling. Hmm, I recall watching several games won immediately after burrowed lings ambushed the terran army and destroyed it, but I can't remember which games they were. Can anyone help me? | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On April 14 2020 09:24 Djabanete wrote: A short ground distance makes it easy for T to threaten with bio. A short air distance makes it easy for Z to threaten with mutas. The start locations on Polypoid worked out well for Zero since the air distance was much shorter than the ground distance. Zero used that to his advantage. Edit: There used to be a proleague map called Battle Royale with only two start locations. The ground distance was long (IIRC there was also a short ground path with removable obstacles) and the air distance was absurdly short. No team ever sent a non-Zerg except for one or two attempts at TvZ sniping (which failed, I think). Makes sense. Ironically, the situation is somewhat reversed in SC2: Z goes heavy on ground pushes with roaches and banelings, whilst T goes for medivac-marine drops. Which may also explain why I side with T in BW but Z in SC2... (Generally, I just find speedy and high-DPS air units somewhat abusive and boring - circumvents terrain, dilutes positional play, etc.) | ||
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78stk
2 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 14 2020 11:31 reincremate wrote: Maybe this has been the best ASL, maybe not. I think we can all agree, however, that ASL7 was the best ASL that Flash didn't play in. It's the only one he didn't play in! | ||
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GTR
51451 Posts
On April 14 2020 09:32 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: lol battle royale Flash requested to play on this map and lost. Cant remember whether he put up a fight or not. only players to win a tvz on it were light and upmagic | ||
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fr)Allister
6 Posts
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yeti
United States258 Posts
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yeti
United States258 Posts
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Afreeca Starleague Season 9![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
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