EPT[ASL5] Ro8 Flash vs Snow - Page 29
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Dante08
Singapore4189 Posts
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itsdaniel
Austria335 Posts
ok thanks | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
When Flash loses the world goes nuts. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:02 Dante08 wrote: I'm wondering for Third World if Terran can just wall off the nat, build all the factories in the third base and cede the whole right side of the map. Seems worth it as there is only 1 base on the right and you can take control of all the bases on the island and not get screwed by carriers flying around. I think it's an interesting idea. You can grab four bases with 3 gases on third world and turret up pretty damn well there imo. Getting to that point is probably the hard part but if you can defend the reaver/any early protoss drops, why not? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28911 Posts
third world : 43-41 pvt gladiator: 178-171 pvt sparkle: 100-145 pvt transistor: 164-126 pvt overall 485-483 pvt. It's more an issue of Snow's style of play being perfect for these maps than them being 'oh so imbalanced'. Flash is less convincing tvp than tvt and tvz, and snow is one of the players who does the best against him. He lost 2-3 in a super close and tense series. He won the map that does clearly favor protoss, and he lost the 'standard' map where balance isn't a factor. Zergs can whine about zvp on this map pool, they have a good point. But tvp? It's fine. Snow had exceptionally strong game plans. Flash didn't play perfectly. The final game he actually lost the first marine against the first zealot. Then Snow managed to deceive him with his 2 gate - flash went fast eng bay because he thought it was shuttle or dt play. So many times he wins because he wins the mindgame, in the final game here, he lost it. That's not because of the map. Absolutely amazing series. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:01 itsdaniel wrote: Didn't Tasteless say 11 years since  Flash was beaten in a BO5???? Excl Amateurs/Sospa,  EffOrt did win the final 8 years ago...Last beat him 3-0 in the asl1 too | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51632 Posts
He was talking about Bo5 against Protoss. Last Protoss to beat flash in a Bo5 was your guy Stork in 2007. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
On May 01 2018 21:46 Essbee wrote: apparently it's a terran favored map lol, guess the stats says it all! because flash played half of that stats. No one played that map after they got dqed. There were only mind and flash in ASL | ||
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adaseod
3 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1325 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:54 Shinokuki wrote: because flash played half of that stats. No one played that map after they got dqed. There were only mind and flash in ASL Nope. The stats that's being mentioned are based on sponmatches, not ASL. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:57 tanngard wrote: Nope. The stats that's being mentioned are based on sponmatches, not ASL. yes.. That what i was saying out of all those spon matches flash played the most games accounting for most so stats get inflated for terrans . when it should be 30-40% he makes it 50%. Also reason why people think T is op as well | ||
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Shinokuki
United States924 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: here are sponbang rates for pvt on the different maps. third world : 43-41 pvt gladiator: 178-171 pvt sparkle: 100-145 pvt transistor: 164-126 pvt overall 485-483 pvt. It's more an issue of Snow's style of play being perfect for these maps than them being 'oh so imbalanced'. Flash is less convincing tvp than tvt and tvz, and snow is one of the players who does the best against him. He lost 2-3 in a super close and tense series. He won the map that does clearly favor protoss, and he lost the 'standard' map where balance isn't a factor. Zergs can whine about zvp on this map pool, they have a good point. But tvp? It's fine. Snow had exceptionally strong game plans. Flash didn't play perfectly. The final game he actually lost the first marine against the first zealot. Then Snow managed to deceive him with his 2 gate - flash went fast eng bay because he thought it was shuttle or dt play. So many times he wins because he wins the mindgame, in the final game here, he lost it. That's not because of the map. Absolutely amazing series. take off flash’s stats off those total stats and you see clearer picture. Now take the best pvter geared towards destroying flash’s style and you get the result | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4189 Posts
In game 3 Snow sent an arbiter to Flash's nat and into his main while Flash's army was right outside his 3rd. If Flash emps that or kills the Arbiter he would have been in a great spot and probably won the game. In game 5 Flash's army is right outside Snow's 3rd when the recall happens. Again if Flash blocks it he's in a great spot as he secured a good position and the carrier count was pretty low. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 02 2018 00:05 Dante08 wrote: Come to think of it this series wasn't really decided but map imbalance as much as I expected but by 2 key recalls that Snow did and Flash screwing up his usually great arbiter defence. In game 3 Snow sent an arbiter to Flash's nat and into his main while Flash's army was right outside his 3rd. If Flash emps that or kills the Arbiter he would have been in a great spot and probably won the game. In game 5 Flash's army is right outside Snow's 3rd when the recall happens. Again if Flash blocks it he's in a great spot as he secured a good position and the carrier count was pretty low. ya, Snow had recalls done at just the right time. In both those games, Flash had to turn back to defend and on Gladiator, twice, he left some tanks behind so Snow killed a couple at least. Had Flash defended against the arbiter better, he would've likely won both games and took this series before we got to game 5. | ||
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TT1
Canada10095 Posts
On May 02 2018 00:02 Shinokuki wrote: take off flash’s stats off those total stats and you see clearer picture. Now take the best pvter geared towards destroying flash’s style and you get the result the same argument could be made for Snow, he also has an insanely high winrate in Sponbbang matches.. for example on 3rd world FlaSh is 27-12 69.2% vs p, Snow is 18-7 72% vs t | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28911 Posts
And if you remove Flash from the equation, then they largely end up looking more p favored and less t favored. What might just be the most 'fair' way of looking at map balance, then ends up being one where you factor the ELO rating of the players involved. sponbbang does this for us ; ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p): Gladiator : 50.3% Transistor : 37.6% Sparkle : 55.1% Third World : 46.2% Transistor is legit imbalanced. But Flash won that one. Looking at the other maps and including third world twice because it was played twice, gives us an elo adjusted balance rating of 49.45% vs 50.55%. Balance is not the reason why Snow won. Yes, his play is less clean than Flash. His macro is less on point. He's a less impressive player overall. There's no question about all of these three. But Snow had superior plans for both third world games. In the first game, Flash tried a gutsy quick push which completely failed. In the final game, Snow managed to genuinely trick him. That's the how and why he ended up winning. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: flash does indeed represent a whole lot of the games played on third world and some of the other maps. And if you remove Flash from the equation, then they largely end up looking more p favored and less t favored. What might just be the most 'fair' way of looking at map balance, then ends up being one where you factor the ELO rating of the players involved. sponbbang does this for us ; ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p): Gladiator : 50.3% Transistor : 37.6% Sparkle : 55.1% Third World : 46.2% Transistor is legit imbalanced. But Flash won that one. Looking at the other maps and including third world twice because it was played twice, gives us an elo adjusted balance rating of 49.45% vs 50.55%. Balance is not the reason why Snow won. Yes, his play is less clean than Flash. His macro is less on point. He's a less impressive player overall. There's no question about all of these three. But Snow had superior plans for both third world games. In the first game, Flash tried a gutsy quick push which completely failed. In the final game, Snow managed to genuinely trick him. That's the how and why he ended up winning. Great stats, thanks for aggregating this. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On May 02 2018 00:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: flash does indeed represent a whole lot of the games played on third world and some of the other maps. And if you remove Flash from the equation, then they largely end up looking more p favored and less t favored. What might just be the most 'fair' way of looking at map balance, then ends up being one where you factor the ELO rating of the players involved. sponbbang does this for us ; ELO adjusted Tvp on all ASL maps (seen from terran pov - bigger than 50% means terran favored, less than 50% means p): Gladiator : 50.3% Transistor : 37.6% Sparkle : 55.1% Third World : 46.2% Transistor is legit imbalanced. But Flash won that one. Looking at the other maps and including third world twice because it was played twice, gives us an elo adjusted balance rating of 49.45% vs 50.55%. Balance is not the reason why Snow won. Yes, his play is less clean than Flash. His macro is less on point. He's a less impressive player overall. There's no question about all of these three. But Snow had superior plans for both third world games. In the first game, Flash tried a gutsy quick push which completely failed. In the final game, Snow managed to genuinely trick him. That's the how and why he ended up winning. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any current player that can actually surpass Flash in these categories lol. Thanks for this nice post! | ||
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