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On May 01 2018 21:53 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 21:42 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2018 21:41 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance! with preparation there's no way this map is balanced, arbiters and carriers are way too effective, as proven in this bo5. The massive sample size of literally 2 games definitely overwhelms all the sponsored PvTs played on the map :o Flash just didn't play the map. I don't know how people are overlooking that. Third World is amazing for early T pushes. Using that to grab a lead and then getting a simple third to take the whole right side makes this map have a really high T winrate. Flash tried that in game 1 and lost to micro. As the series went on, he went less Flash-like and started to crawl back into his "standard" instead of playing specifically for every game. In the final game, he played it defensively which is exactly what the map is not good for. Of course, being unbreakable is Flash's MO, but it's also Snow's MO to break defenses. So Flash deliberately did not use his map advantage in order to play where he felt comfortable, and Snow utilized his style (which is well suited for the map in a way that most P are not) to take control of the game. Flash went in thinking he had 100% on Sparkle against all of the stats, and that proved true. He went in with racial stats on his side on Third World. He went in with great stats on Gladiator. Transistor was his thorn, and he vetoed it. He lost the maps he should've won, and pulled a few victories out with finesse. But in the end, the stats were still on his side yet Snow just played a beautiful series.
I guess that make sense. Third world is good early game for terran but bad late game. Also, flash tried to push in the first game but the reaver countered the two tanks on the high-ground. I'm not sure what else flash was supposed to do. Snow's reavers were too effective.
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come on guys, Snow was the better player today overall, lets not blindly blame it on maps.
its good for the scene to have a new champ, Flash will likely win more championships in the future for sure.
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WHAT THE FUCK
Why did I forget it was on today? Holy shit.
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I'm pretty sure Flash would have thumbed down Third World after seeing this Arbiter+Carrier style. Just impossible to deal with. Well played by Snow though.
Hero please win cause we do not want a PvP finals.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50602 Posts
On May 01 2018 22:02 Dante08 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Flash would have thumbed down Third World after seeing this Arbiter+Carrier style. Just impossible to deal with. Well played by Snow though.
Hero please win cause we do not want a PvP finals.
its not new and the most number of times I've seen it was on Circuit Breaker.
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Puny god.
Seriously epic series! Grats Snow! ggwp
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A fantastic night of games! A bit of salt, but no empire can last forever. If we'd played 5 games on fighting spirit we'd probably have seen a different result to what we got, yes.
Snow showed he wasn't just winning purely because of map advantage by defeating Flash in a standard macro game on Gladiator and the fact that Flash managed to pull a win on a map that's supposed to be very anti-terran shows you can play around anything.
Overall, I'm super happy and very excited that for the first time since ASL1 I can go into the final cheering on my favourite player, and not just the player being fed to flash this season.
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There's no such thing as "good for terran early". Any protoss can stop terrans agressive play. It's all about information.
Good for early pushes generally means that protoss have to take that into account, it doesn't mean that terran can come up with strategies that protoss have a hard time dealing with if they see it coming, so you cant build your play around it and let protoss ajust while having success consistenly. Any timing push in TvP is a risk for terran. Also the map has really long distances between the naturals so it makes it harder.
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On May 01 2018 22:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 22:02 Dante08 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Flash would have thumbed down Third World after seeing this Arbiter+Carrier style. Just impossible to deal with. Well played by Snow though.
Hero please win cause we do not want a PvP finals. its not new and the most number of times I've seen it was on Circuit Breaker.
Flash deals with it easily on Circuit Breaker. Third World on the other hand once Protoss gets a mass amount of Carriers how to you fight it?
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On May 01 2018 21:40 YPang wrote:
This was honestly not an upset, Flash was the under dog given the maps the whole time.
Yeah I totally agree, I'm pretty sure Snow would have crushed any other Terran 3-0 and it's pretty amazing that Flash managed to bring it to 3-2.
Also that no flinch reaction from that empty shuttle was just pure genius.
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On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance!
Not sure where you get these stats from.
According to this:
http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2018-03&month2=2018-04&bj=
TvP on Third World is 41-43 (48.8%)
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I'm a little salty that the last Terran in the tournament just got knocked out, but I've gotta admit that Snow won fair and square. He outplayed Flash in all 3 of his victories, and was looking kind of scary on Sparkle too despite losing there. Really good series.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 01 2018 21:53 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 21:42 Ej_ wrote:On May 01 2018 21:41 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance! with preparation there's no way this map is balanced, arbiters and carriers are way too effective, as proven in this bo5. The massive sample size of literally 2 games definitely overwhelms all the sponsored PvTs played on the map :o Flash just didn't play the map. I don't know how people are overlooking that. Third World is amazing for early T pushes. Using that to grab a lead and then getting a simple third to take the whole right side makes this map have a really high T winrate. Flash tried that in game 1 and lost to micro. As the series went on, he went less Flash-like and started to crawl back into his "standard" instead of playing specifically for every game. In the final game, he played it defensively which is exactly what the map is not good for. Of course, being unbreakable is Flash's MO, but it's also Snow's MO to break defenses. So Flash deliberately did not use his map advantage in order to play where he felt comfortable, and Snow utilized his style (which is well suited for the map in a way that most P are not) to take control of the game. Flash went in thinking he had 100% on Sparkle against all of the stats, and that proved true. He went in with racial stats on his side on Third World. He went in with great stats on Gladiator. Transistor was his thorn, and he vetoed it. He lost the maps he should've won, and pulled a few victories out with finesse. But in the end, the stats were still on his side yet Snow just played a beautiful series.
Pretty much. People really need to quit whining. Are the maps perfectly balanced? probably not, however, Flash didn't exactly play badly here and Snow aside from a few blunders played fucking superb. I honestly don't think Bisu could've done better here.
On third world, both in game 1 and 5, his early game was out of this world. He stopped that high ground drop in the nick of time and had great reaver micro to boot too. Last game, he snuck a freaking zealot in Flash's base. He knew that Flash would skimp out and played it well, going around the scouting SCV which he kept denying over and over. He delayed the expansion and constantly sniped tanks. He kept the tank count lower even going for that double shuttle drop with dts. Blaming this solely on the maps is doing a huge disservice to Snow who obviously went into this extremely prepared against the GOAT.
Add on the fact that Snow also won a macro game on a "standard" map like Gladiator while Flash won both Sparkle and Transistor and it's not as clear cut as some folks make it out to be. This, much like the Mind vs hero series was fantastic all around. I was constantly on the edge wondering if Snow can actually pull it off so it felt amazing when he finally did. Too bad Mind wasn't able to.
edit: Flash is making bank on stream atm and seems totally fine after that lol.
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Isn't it funny to think that fiddling with maps to buff races, when done in secret, killed Warcraft 3 in Korea. Yet done in the open to target one player is totally accepted in Brood War.
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On May 01 2018 22:16 ggrrg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance! Not sure where you get these stats from. According to this: http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2018-03&month2=2018-04&bj=TvP on Third World is 41-43 (48.8%)
so you are saying that a 1.2% difference in favor of P made Snow the winner?
oh, come on!
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On May 01 2018 22:53 ajmbek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 22:16 ggrrg wrote:On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance! Not sure where you get these stats from. According to this: http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2018-03&month2=2018-04&bj=TvP on Third World is 41-43 (48.8%) so you are saying that a 1.2% difference in favor of P made Snow the winner? oh, come on!
huh he's just correcting the stats posted by other guy... no need to get defensive
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On May 01 2018 22:53 ajmbek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 22:16 ggrrg wrote:On May 01 2018 21:40 rackdude wrote:On May 01 2018 21:38 Essbee wrote:On May 01 2018 21:37 leublix wrote:On May 01 2018 21:31 Mnijykmirl wrote:
doesn't it just seem like a great terran player just lost due to maps more than anything else? snow played very well but it felt like I just watched the true grandmaster get taken down because of an unfair fight Flash lost on the most standard map and won on the most P favored one. lol yeah third world is such a balanced map /s Yeah, it's definitely not. 44% PvT in sponmatches? It's too T favored to be in a proper map pool... good thing Snow overcame imbalance! Not sure where you get these stats from. According to this: http://sponbbang.com/race/?month1=2018-03&month2=2018-04&bj=TvP on Third World is 41-43 (48.8%) so you are saying that a 1.2% difference in favor of P made Snow the winner? oh, come on!
Nope.
It was a response to somebody who was claiming a fairly significant advantage for Terran which does not seem to be the case.
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Didn't Tasteless say 11 years since  Flash was beaten in a BO5???? Excl Amateurs/Sospa,  EffOrt did win the final 8 years ago...
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I really believe that style that Flash tried in game 1 could have been best, but rather than going for this marine tank drop, just secure main and go mass dropship to threaten all expos in 3rd world + drop to main (due to small ramp) and just take the major part of the map. Carriers are not so scary when you don't have to "fly" between both parts, you can just turret up your main and make regular 200/200 army on the other side. Additionally it's quite easy to defend your main with wall + few tanks + milion turrets.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 01 2018 23:01 itsdaniel wrote:Didn't Tasteless say 11 years since Flash was beaten in a BO5???? Excl Amateurs/Sospa, EffOrt did win the final 8 years ago...
they were talking specifically about TvP.
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EPT
