EPT[ASL4] Ro8 Larva vs Rain - Page 21
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Miragee
8684 Posts
On October 16 2017 07:20 EsportsJohn wrote: In the final game, Rain killed every drone in the natural and main (3rd/4th?) with a DT/HT drop. It was the single time Larva missed the drop completely. Rain almost equalised the game back then. However, he was only sitting on 2 mining bases himself so killing all those drones didn't give him a huge advantage, it brought him back into the game. I was confused at first, too, but when I looked at it again it all made sense. On October 16 2017 16:37 THE Sliggy wrote: Nope. Protoss can't win unless the player is simply much better. PvZ winrate at high MMR is the lowest in the game at 40% or so. Matchup is broken. Oh god, why is this SC2 mentality swiping in here? It's annoying. Back in the day we surely had some balance discussion but I feel like there was much less crying over a matchup being broken because of a single series. It was also widely accepted that BW is as close to being 100 % balanced as it gets. It's not perfect, nothing is, but I wouldn't call PvZ broken... On October 16 2017 20:48 _Animus_ wrote: his reaver control was terrible all the time. Thing is he cannot play vs turtle zerg, he doesnt know how. That is obvious, when he have same number of bases, almost double supply and beast macro. If you are macro protoss and gain enough advantage to smash zerg army u go out on map and bust zerg, thats all you do. Instead he go on busting leave his reavers forward and concentrate on flying shuttles for suicide, then he lose both haras shuttles and his reavers at front... His attention was not on the right spots and was rather chaotic so he couldnt achieve a thing. Larva just go on and kill reavers and observers and its a constant circle. Rain had 180 limit larva 100, he had same amount of bases meaning he can macro out enough reinforcement to keep crushing zerg army until forever, so i have 0% of an idea why he just didnt make 2 shttles with reavers, more observers and go bust 1 spot controling and concentrating on that, zerg cant do shit in such disadvantage. I think Rain switched to Reavers way too late. Sair/Reaver is pretty good vs this turtle strategy because the protoss can expand rather freely. Unfortunately, Rain continued to lose his Sairs all the time. If you can't maintain a decent Sair count on game after another then it's time to step it up. With a high Sair count and multiple observers he would have broken Larva on more than a few occasions. | ||
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ihufa
Denmark79 Posts
If Rain knew this level of wisdom was hiding on teamliquid he could hire you guys as coaches and become the best Protoss ever. L M F A O | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 17 2017 02:58 ihufa wrote: The amount of people in this thread who know EXACTLY what Rain did wrong and right is amazing. You know which moves were just pointless and stupid, and you know which moves were alright. If Rain knew this level of wisdom was hiding on teamliquid he could hire you guys as coaches and become the best Protoss ever. L M F A O Except rain makes those moves because he is playing with far from perfect information. All of us "armchair" quarterbacks get the advantage of seeing both sides completely and having time to look at and analyzing the games. Bigger difference between analyzing players decisions in a Starcraft game versus a chess game. The implication here is that everybody analyzing the game thinks they are smarter than Rain when it comes to SC knowledge, but obviously that's an apples to oranges comparison. Rain played the way he did because had far less information than any viewer was privy too. | ||
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Miragee
8684 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:23 L_Master wrote: Except rain makes those moves because he is playing with far from perfect information. All of us "armchair" quarterbacks get the advantage of seeing both sides completely and having time to look at and analyzing the games. Bigger difference between analyzing players decisions in a Starcraft game versus a chess game. The implication here is that everybody analyzing the game thinks they are smarter than Rain when it comes to SC knowledge, but obviously that's an apples to oranges comparison. Rain played the way he did because had far less information than any viewer was privy too. This... | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
The last game was in Rain's favour imo but it felt like he kept running into Larva's strong defense hoping to plow through but obviously, that didn't happen lol. Given, I commend Larva for his defense and being able to win this series 3-1. Hopefully, this will convince some folks that Larva isn't some random player who made it here by luck. These games were just insane macro and defense games. Rain's macro was unreal. The guy always had a shit ton of units. Can't remember the last time I was this awed at someone's macro lol. Maybe Best back in ASL2? Also, just a little note to everyone here: I hope folks will refrain from blatant balance whining. You're free to discuss what Rain could've done better or what you believe was the cause of his loss but balance whining, saying matchups are broken etc... are warnable offense on here. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
Maybe Rain did try too hard with drops but he sure would have had more than one obs in his engagements were it not for Larva's magnet scourges. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Stax736
United States119 Posts
On October 17 2017 02:58 ihufa wrote: The amount of people in this thread who know EXACTLY what Rain did wrong and right is amazing. You know which moves were just pointless and stupid, and you know which moves were alright. If Rain knew this level of wisdom was hiding on teamliquid he could hire you guys as coaches and become the best Protoss ever. L M F A O We are just analyzing a match, no different than what Tasteless and Artosis were doing. What are you on about? We are obviously not pros, and we don't think we are smarter than him. In Teamliquid we always analyze a match and critique someone's play, is this new to you? I'm critical of Rain because I was rooting for him to win, and Larva is a strong Zerg player. What I felt Rain did wrong, well he was still trying to bust through Larva's main base during the late game, when Larva's 12 o'clock expansion was much more easier to breach. On October 17 2017 03:23 L_Master wrote: Except rain makes those moves because he is playing with far from perfect information. All of us "armchair" quarterbacks get the advantage of seeing both sides completely and having time to look at and analyzing the games. Bigger difference between analyzing players decisions in a Starcraft game versus a chess game. The implication here is that everybody analyzing the game thinks they are smarter than Rain when it comes to SC knowledge, but obviously that's an apples to oranges comparison. Rain played the way he did because had far less information than any viewer was privy too. No one thinks they are smarter than Rain, at least I don't. Yeah obviously there is a difference between analyzing a match from your own pc and playing the actual game and being under pressure. Me just I know the basics, but it's still fun to watch, and I know what's going on. I do compare his PvZ to other protosses such as Shuttle and Movie for example and you can see who does what better. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:38 PVJ wrote: To all the people noting the lack of observers, sure it is a huge mistake but I don't think he, like, just forgot to make them in a couple of his production cycles. It was, more like straight consequence of Larva's impeccable defence and having all his shuttle's sniped. (As far as I was aware--) Rain went 1 robo and just always had to make shuttle's instead of obs's which proved to be crucial during his attacks. Maybe Rain did try too hard with drops but he sure would have had more than one obs in his engagements were it not for Larva's magnet scourges. Actually, I know that he had more than one obs at least at one point on FS. When he tried that bust on the natural, I vaguely recall counting 3. One was scouraged, other two must've been picked off by hydras/spores or whatever. This was when he was up almost 80 supply I believe. Much like you said, I think this is more on Larva's impeccable defense rather than Rain's poor play. Hindsight is 20/20 after all. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:38 PVJ wrote: To all the people noting the lack of observers, sure it is a huge mistake but I don't think he, like, just forgot to make them in a couple of his production cycles. It was, more like straight consequence of Larva's impeccable defence and having all his shuttle's sniped. (As far as I was aware--) Rain went 1 robo and just always had to make shuttle's instead of obs's which proved to be crucial during his attacks. Maybe Rain did try too hard with drops but he sure would have had more than one obs in his engagements were it not for Larva's magnet scourges. yes at least 2 robos are required to constantly produce obs and reaver, instead he produced mass shuttles and hts, not only he had not enough obs/reaver but he had no gas to make them, because he invested it all in hts that die. hallucinating arbiters and doing recalls was way better way to not only harass but straight kill bases. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:46 Stax736 wrote: No one thinks they are smarter than Rain, at least I don't. Yeah obviously there is a difference between analyzing a match and playing the actual game and being under pressure. Me just I know the basics, but it's still fun to watch, and I know what's going on. I do compare his PvZ to other protosses such as Shuttle and Movie for example and you can see who does what better. I agree, I don't think anybody really does either. That's in response to ihufa's comment about people saying what Rain did wrong/right. His comment absolutely implies that everyone commenting about Rain/Larva's play thinks they are smarter. One thing I didn't add in the original response is that a portion of the discussion centers around control. It's absolutely possible to spot good and bad control, and even suggest how they could have been done better. This doesn't imply that any of us could properly coach or improve Rain's play. It's not that hard to look at someone's play and say "oh they need better muta control, or even specifically why the control is off", but it's a whole different level to be able to teach someone to do it correctly. In the same way even though I can "criticize" a professional golfer that makes a bad swing, even realizing that he made a bad swing because he cleared his hips too fast and got stuck forcing a blocked right shot, doesn't mean that I am a better play, more knowledgeable, or even that I could coach him. It just means it's easier to notice mistakes after the fact when you have full knowledge and as much time as you want to review what happened. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On October 17 2017 04:01 BigFan wrote: Actually, I know that he had more than one obs at least at one point on FS. When he tried that bust on the natural, I vaguely recall counting 3. One was scouraged, other two must've been picked off by hydras/spores or whatever. This was when he was up almost 80 supply I believe. Much like you said, I think this is more on Larva's impeccable defense rather than Rain's poor play. Hindsight is 20/20 after all. Maybe it is that he just knew Rain's game all too well. I don't recall larva having excessive amounts of scourge, at least not too many times. He anticipated when Rain was going to drop (most of the time), when he needed ground army to flank, when he can build more scourge to kill observers during bust attempts. And man, did he kill those observers. Since I was rooting hard for Rain, I felt utter frustration when every single one of them died. I was praying for a ComSat. I was thinking "What if Rain just turtles extremely hard and goes Sair/Carrier?" | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On October 17 2017 02:16 ArvickHero wrote: Can't protoss reopen the gas gates on Gold Rush, by rebuilding the assimilators? Or is the map designed so that you can't rebuild on the gas gates once you've broken them? you can't ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0OrWJWV.png) and if you could that would be protoss imba, since refineries and exctractors are same as geysers (0 pixel holes all sides) | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
 .I think it's a good counter versus a hardcore turtling Zerg. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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VioleTAK
4408 Posts
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