On October 16 2017 03:49 ShowTheLights wrote: FUCK Larva and FUCK PvZ
Up 80 supply in Game 3 and 4, can't do shit vs Zerg.
Wow I played much better than my opponent for the first 20 minutes of the game to get to 80 supply up, guess I can't do anything
Just going to say that Supply doesn't mean shit in PvZ. If it did and Protoss won everytime they were 80 supply ahead, guess what? Zerg would never win after early game. Thank god it doesn't go by that :D.
This series was really well played by Larva though. I thought game 3 was good, but game 4 was even better imo. Larva lost a shit ton of drones, I thought for sure he was dead and it was going to a game 5. No, somehow he barely defends his bases, deals with DT drops, HT drops, etc all game long beautifully. It was some of the best ZvP I have seen. Dealing with Shuttle harass is hard, but man he does it so amazing.
On October 16 2017 06:13 ortseam wrote: Rain wasn't killing many drones actually, Larva was constantly dodging all the storm drops.
In the final game, Rain killed every drone in the natural and main (3rd/4th?) with a DT/HT drop. It was the single time Larva missed the drop completely.
Lol, I feel like an idiot for doubting Larva in the ZvZ group and in this Ro8. I'm really happy he was able to advance. I felt like Rain kept trying to huff and puff, but he couldn't blow Larva's house down in the last game.
watching game 3 and i feel a bit funny for all the people who was trying to convince me Larva is the man to take down Flash. Larva almost constantly on even bases with protoss, how that can be a macro zerg who will beat flash in BO series lol
I love Larva's fast 3rd turtle zerg to macro while insane defense. I think this is a reliable ZvP meta, as long as the player can be close to perfect in defense and map presence in order to avoid Protoss balling up too much.
I wonder how this will work vs. Terran. Maybe Larva can incorporate some queen play to this and it's golden.
On October 16 2017 08:54 yOngKIN wrote: I love Larva's fast 3rd turtle zerg to macro while insane defense. I think this is a reliable ZvP meta, as long as the player can be close to perfect in defense and map presence in order to avoid Protoss balling up too much.
I wonder how this will work vs. Terran. Maybe Larva can incorporate some queen play to this and it's golden.
Larva could win it all the way.
From my point of view its just the fact Rain plays terrible vs turtle zerg. And he makes more damage to himslef than to harass opponent with that constant suicide of full shuttles.
wellp i guess thats it. I didnt expect rain to lose this but hes not good enough really. He was 2 times 180 vs 100 supply and couldnt win, that is ridicilous (crying imba). In 3rd game with first recall he killed larva tech, then needed to continue with recalls until gg. He was so tilted that instead he continued to attack turtled base defence losing reavers and army all the time and spend all his gas on constant high templar shuttle suicides that made him not have gas for arbiters. So bad
That opening game was ballsy as F by Larva. Not often I see something like that in a pro game. I think he was over excited after that first win and fumbled a bit in game 2.
Game 3 was insane. This Gold Rush map is crazy, I'm loving the games I'm seeing on it so far. Game 4 seemed like a Observer hunting game for Larva. Awesome set of games and I'm glad to see Larva advance to the next stage.
On October 16 2017 08:29 _Animus_ wrote: watching game 3 and i feel a bit funny for all the people who was trying to convince me Larva is the man to take down Flash. Larva almost constantly on even bases with protoss, how that can be a macro zerg who will beat flash in BO series lol
Larva probably won't win against Flash. That would be a true miracle, as it's very clear Flash is on a different level from anyone else. Bisu, Larva, and EffOrt probably have the best chances though; and fortunately two of them remain in the bracket.
That said, Larva didn't need to be ahead bases. He beat Rain pretty comfortably being a base or two down, that's what happens when your defense is that good.
On October 16 2017 08:54 yOngKIN wrote: I love Larva's fast 3rd turtle zerg to macro while insane defense. I think this is a reliable ZvP meta, as long as the player can be close to perfect in defense and map presence in order to avoid Protoss balling up too much.
I wonder how this will work vs. Terran. Maybe Larva can incorporate some queen play to this and it's golden.
Larva could win it all the way.
From my point of view its just the fact Rain plays terrible vs turtle zerg. And he makes more damage to himslef than to harass opponent with that constant suicide of full shuttles.
Rain played pretty well in my opinion. Excellent in the early stages (his defense before Larva's suicide in G2 was an absolutely master class against Larva's own movements), and solid in the later parts. As someone said earlier, that's just Rain's style. He knows Larva's defense, and to a much lesser extent zerg defense in general is too solid to beat just attacking the front. He plays a bounce around style where he harasses zerg greatly to draw army away, create vulnerabilities, and also keep the economy from booming.
I strongly feel this wasn't nearly as much a case of Rain playing bad as it was Larva playing good. It's not like Rain suicided to many shuttles. He was microing most of them, just Larva was faster and on top of every drop, and his scourge control helped shut that down. It's one of those examples where if you saw that at a lower level of play it would happen because protoss is bad and trying to do more than he can, but in this series it was much more Larva just being too good. Many of those shuttles would have escaped or done damage against a lesser zerg.
Game 4 was perhaps his only real weakspot. After killing all the drones at main/nat as larva donated a few groups of lings and lurkers he was in a beautiful position. All he had to do was add reavers to his bases, cannon up, block the expansions at 12',6', and 9' and win comfortably, but it seems he was either too frustrated or didn't have the confidence he could pull that off against Larva.
On October 16 2017 09:11 _Animus_ wrote: wellp i guess thats it. I didnt expect rain to lose this but hes not good enough really. He was 2 times 180 vs 100 supply and couldnt win, that is ridicilous (crying imba). In 3rd game with first recall he killed larva tech, then needed to continue with recalls until gg. He was so tilted that instead he continued to attack turtled base defence losing reavers and army all the time and spend all his gas on constant high templar shuttle suicides that made him not have gas for arbiters. So bad
Again, not bad from Rain. Rain played well. He's doesn't have Bisu's multitask and control though, so going up against a player like Larva can make you look bad. He wanted to recall other bases, but Larva's defense was too good to let any other arbiters in, and Larva started actively hunting other arbiters on the map at that point.
It's worth noting the only tech rain killed was a spawning pool. Killing a hive is meaningless when upgrades are all done and defiler mound is at another base. It wasn't a very valuable recall in my opinion, and honestly if he had recalled a more valuable base (say right side or 6') I think that could well have been a fatal blow to Larva. On the opposite side of the coin though...Larva was paying more attention and had a hell of a lot more scourge there.
On October 16 2017 09:01 RWLabs wrote: Tonight, rain fell.
To be frank though, Rain didn't play very well. He kept bleeding expensive units left and right.
He did, but not because he played poorly. He just doesn't have the impeccable control and mechanics you need to play a style like that against a zerg with defense as absurdly good as Larva's. If you play a harass style and execute it well to the best of your abilities, but are playing against a better player it will always look wasteful and like you're a bit of a hack. That's what happened to Rain here.
Oh, and for anyone that isn't convinced that Larva's ZvP defense is THAT good...it is.
Exhibit A:
Bisu vs Larva
don't watch this too long if you're Protoss
This is "oops I fucked up and can't make anything for 5 minutes" into "oh well who gives a shit. Nobody needs units or more bases". This is from a worse position by FAR than against Rain, going up against a Protoss that is obviously MUCH better than Rain.
Game 4 was perhaps his only real weakspot. After killing all the drones at main/nat as larva donated a few groups of lings and lurkers he was in a beautiful position. All he had to do was add reavers to his bases, cannon up, block the expansions at 12',6', and 9' and win comfortably, but it seems he was either too frustrated or didn't have the confidence he could pull that off against Larva.
I think fatigue might have played into it too... Game 3 was such a long and brutal slug fest. From watching his stream I think Larva actually thrives on those long games, but I'd imagine most players feel a lot of strain managing prolong late game... and to lose on top of that. Flash is another player that has always seemed pretty comfortable in the late game. I sometimes wonder if his style has rubbed off on Larva given the amount they practiced together.
Oh, by the way. I had a good laugh reading back in this thread. Usopsama gave me a good chuckle.
So happy Larva made it through. Against a pretty good Protoss to. I think he might end up against SoulKey in the semis. Either way a ZvZ up next for him. TBH I have no idea how who will win most top level ZvZ games though.
On October 16 2017 09:01 RWLabs wrote: Tonight, rain fell.
To be frank though, Rain didn't play very well. He kept bleeding expensive units left and right.
I don't think Larva gets enough credit for the way he made Rain bleed expensive units.
I do think that Rains decision making was questionable but the way Larva played was insane and Rain didn't expect him to withstand the pressure and harassment as well as he did.
Looking back at the games it is easy to say that he wasted to much doing the same thing over and over with some success but not enough, the amount of shuttles wasted was insane for example.
But, the fact that Larva withstood the onslaught is a very impressive feat and it is easy to say that Rain did the wrong thing but no one new that Larva would be that good with defense and that sharp in dealing with harassment all over the place while keeping up his macro like that.
It isn't a bad tactic to waste some units to tax your opponents apm so that he can't keep up with you, and it was reasonable of Rain to assume that Larva would be a step behind him in that.
But he wasn't.
Rain played great, just didn't recognize how strong Larva was in the areas where he had planned to beat him.
I haven't seen a pro of Rain's caliber brainfart so hard when having a lead and map center control for a couple minutes and just not capitalize on it ever. All the guys had me raging how he kept fumbling with observers not being taken cared of, shuttles carelessly blown out of the sky with reavers,ht,dts in it, and the worst was having like air control earlyl, then just piss it all away in awful exchanges. I dunno Rain just sucked so bad even his storms were terrible, either he wasnt able to pull off a storm due to carelessness, or storm in places then run his army underneath it smh
L_Master that Larva vs Bisu game you linked was insane. Looked like Larva was on the brink of defeat several times but continued to hold on for dear life and wore Bisu out. I loved the last battle in that game, you could just tell by then it was the final battle because it was the only base left with resources.
I certainly thought larva was going to die a few times each in games 3 and 4 but he just kept defending over and over. This series was such a good watch.
EPT
Bisu vs 
Larva
