EPTI would think that teching to carriers or something would be a better use of money, but I don't know how they play out in BW
[ASL4] Ro8 Larva vs Rain - Page 22
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nick00bot
326 Posts
I would think that teching to carriers or something would be a better use of money, but I don't know how they play out in BW | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1184 Posts
On October 17 2017 10:29 nick00bot wrote: As a Sc2 fan, I was amazed by Larva's consistent drop defense throughout game 3, but I have to ask, is it usually worth it to by dropping HT and Reavers all the time when zerg has scourge? I would think that teching to carriers or something would be a better use of money, but I don't know how they play out in BW The harrass style was more about drawing as much attention away from the main fights as possible because most of the drop's were happening as he moved his army around. As for teching to carriers, it's usually a resounding no. The advantage of carriers is about the positioning over ledges and hard to reach spots. If Rain had made more sairs to go along with the carriers, then maybe, but zerg has great air defense overall, and more importantly putting so much resources in a slow units doesn't allow for the ability of defending bases very effectively because Cracklings/defiler and tear apart bases so quickly. | ||
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gamapg
Philippines189 Posts
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On October 17 2017 10:37 art_of_turtle wrote: The harrass style was more about drawing as much attention away from the main fights as possible because most of the drop's were happening as he moved his army around. As for teching to carriers, it's usually a resounding no. The advantage of carriers is about the positioning over ledges and hard to reach spots. If Rain had made more sairs to go along with the carriers, then maybe, but zerg has great air defense overall, and more importantly putting so much resources in a slow units doesn't allow for the ability of defending bases very effectively because Cracklings/defiler and tear apart bases so quickly. Harass is more about crippling the zerg's economy with non-stop mineral line devastation than a distraction from the busts. The main fights draw attention from the harass more so than vice versa, as ideally the toss catches the zerg off guard and drones don't get pulled on time. If Rain had Bisu-level mulitasking and decision-making, his storm and DT drops would have been more effective. Rain's micro for both his front door busts and harass left a little to be desired, especially compared to, for example, Bisu on his A-game. As mentioned earlier in the thread, there was only one drop that Larva completely missed and that almost swung the game in Rain's favour. That being said, it seemed like Rain was considerably ahead when his fifth came up and he had 3-4 bases mining. Either reversing the roles by expanding and turtling himself or just straight up busting the zerg defense while storm/DT harassing (like he tried to do) were both valid options, but his execution was a bit lacking and Larva was on top of his scourge defense and drone-pulling. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 17 2017 10:43 gamapg wrote: Why can't Rain do what Soulkey did to him and just be content with map control and contain the zerg to 4-5 bases while getting the rest of the bases on the map (presumably more than the zerg's) and starve him out? I mean even if Rain army traded all of the time trying to break the sunken walls, why cant he just throw the ball to Larva to try and wrestle map control from the P death ball? Even if the Zerg production is coming from 2 sides of the map, then can't Rain just efficiently split his army to deal with what the Zerg throws at him without sacrificing a contain? Zerg starved him out, why couldn't Protoss do the same to Zerg?? That is a viable way to play. Why Rain didn't opt for that strategy I'm not sure. Best guess might be that he thought it would be too hard to allocate that much to defense in different places while trying to shut down Larva. That's a hard style for protoss to play, as defending a zerg that's everywhere is usually quite tricky due to zerg mobility, but it's been played somewhat often on maps like fighting spirit, such a style would be significantly harder on a more open map with more bases like Circuit Breaker. Its worth noting that in ultra lategame situations, like map mined out with 1 base or less remaining Protoss can get ridiculously strong. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On October 17 2017 05:31 chuDr3t4 wrote: you can't ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0OrWJWV.png) and if you could that would be protoss imba, since refineries and exctractors are same as geysers (0 pixel holes all sides) ah, that's a shame. I feel like games could be really interesting with a reopen mechanic, even if it would be a bit imba. Thanks for finding that out! | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
It seems to me that if Protoss can't break Zerg while they're still on 4 bases or fewer, they need to stop trying to cram their army into choke points and up ramps and start trying to win on the value of their splash damage units, possibly by playing the game to starvation and holding the last expansion. The story of lategame PvZ, so often, is a story of Protoss being unable to find a good battle, losing all their Zealots to Lurkers, and getting their high-gas units surrounded and wiped out for the GG. Is it wrong to aim for a starvation game once you can see things are headed in that direction? Edit: Granted, you need to take a *lot* of bases for this to work... You can't starve the Zerg if you've only taken 4 bases. But Rain was pretty good about expanding heavily and, for the most part, defended his bases remarkably well. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
On October 17 2017 14:04 iamho wrote: Idk why Larva refused to make ultras but it almost cost him big leads in both games. Lucky for him Rain was playing dumb and just kept suiciding his army into his expansion instead of using his map control to split the map. Ultras are not cost effective vs protoss, no aoe damage and very expensive. Archons, HTs, Reavers & Dragoons do very well against ultras. Plus the fact that if you add in more ultras they bunch up which makes the protoss splash damage even better. Lurkers are much better for defence, have aoe damage, cheaper and if spread out well insanely effective against protoss. I was wondering as well why Zergs don't go for ultras nowadays, and it seems like they have gotten to a point where they can control lurkers effectively even when attacking which explains why. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
On October 17 2017 13:07 ArvickHero wrote: ah, that's a shame. I feel like games could be really interesting with a reopen mechanic, even if it would be a bit imba. Thanks for finding that out! you can make it reopen by using a buildable tileset terrain below the neutral assimilators. right now you can't build on it because they used an unbuildable terrain below them. but rebuilding into an extractor/refinery only allows certain units to pass by, cus assimilators are smaller than the other two gas buildings. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4333 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
Rain probably a bit too stubborn with his harass style and all those busts. Very cool series. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Eleonora
29 Posts
On October 17 2017 02:58 ihufa wrote: The amount of people in this thread who know EXACTLY what Rain did wrong and right is amazing. You know which moves were just pointless and stupid, and you know which moves were alright. If Rain knew this level of wisdom was hiding on teamliquid he could hire you guys as coaches and become the best Protoss ever. L M F A O On October 17 2017 03:46 Stax736 wrote: We are just analyzing a match, no different than what Tasteless and Artosis were doing. What are you on about? We are obviously not pros, and we don't think we are smarter than him. In Teamliquid we always analyze a match and critique someone's play, is this new to you? I'm critical of Rain because I was rooting for him to win, and Larva is a strong Zerg player. (...) No one thinks they are smarter than Rain, at least I don't. Yeah obviously there is a difference between analyzing a match from your own pc and playing the actual game and being under pressure.. On October 17 2017 03:23 L_Master wrote: Except rain makes those moves because he is playing with far from perfect information. All of us "armchair" quarterbacks get the advantage of seeing both sides completely and having time to look at and analyzing the games. Bigger difference between analyzing players decisions in a Starcraft game versus a chess game. The implication here is that everybody analyzing the game thinks they are smarter than Rain when it comes to SC knowledge, but obviously that's an apples to oranges comparison. Rain played the way he did because had far less information than any viewer was privy too. Yeah right, except you might have missed some of the comments in this thread : On October 16 2017 09:11 _Animus_ wrote: wellp i guess thats it. I didnt expect rain to lose this but hes not good enough really. He was 2 times 180 vs 100 supply and couldnt win, that is ridicilous (crying imba). In 3rd game with first recall he killed larva tech, then needed to continue with recalls until gg. He was so tilted that instead he continued to attack turtled base defence losing reavers and army all the time and spend all his gas on constant high templar shuttle suicides that made him not have gas for arbiters. So bad Or just now : On October 17 2017 14:04 iamho wrote: Idk why Larva refused to make ultras but it almost cost him big leads in both games. Lucky for him Rain was playing dumb and just kept suiciding his army into his expansion instead of using his map control to split the map. To the point where you can even find people trashing Larva on this Bo5 : On October 16 2017 08:29 _Animus_ wrote: watching game 3 and i feel a bit funny for all the people who was trying to convince me Larva is the man to take down Flash. Larva almost constantly on even bases with protoss, how that can be a macro zerg who will beat flash in BO series lol Just because ihufa said doesn't exactly apply to you doesn't mean it's plain wrong. I had the exact same feeling reading the thread after the last game, and it's really not uncommon on TL. The only game worth being discussed really is game 3, because that's the type of game, especially half way through the Bo5, where you make the difference in such encounters. Even if Rain is a real pro, the amount of frustration and tilting resulting of that game can be seen in game 4. So, focusing on game 3: it's really amazing to me that so many very average - or even below that - players would be so confident criticizing the decision making of a player like Rain in a game where he even ended up doing Arbiters (?! Oh yeah, i'm sure you do it very often in your PvZ games), trying to find a solution to the unbreakable Larva's wall. It's fascinating to see how obvious it "should" have been, according to TL, to play that way since about the mid-game despite the fact Arbiters are extremely expensive AND also vulnerable to one of Zerg's most common weapons (scourge). He lost as least one that way actually. And we hadn't seen Arbiters for years at this level of PvZ (afaik, but tastosis mentionned it too). It's also fascinating to see the amount of talk on the number of Obs as if Rain only had one at any given time. BigFan is the only one i saw pointing out that he actually had 2 on multiple occasions on FS, and i suggest you take a look back at the game on Gold Rush to see what actually happened there. Larva had plenty of scourges avaible to kill multiple obs, because Rain usually had more than one, and not stacked. He even had 3 towards the end of the game and i haven't seen a lot of instances where Rain was pushed back because he had lost his obs (it happened once or twice in game 4 though). Maybe you forgot that at some point Protoss has plenty of storms avaible and dropping them on lurker usually also hits the other units Zerg is sending to defend. Sure, seeing the Protoss army go over and over into the wall might be hard to understand for some, but it wouldn't be if they watched a bit of stream (talks about Larva's current skill is also is very good way to see who actually follows the game and who is spewing bullshit based on totally obsolete "MuH TBLS" knowledge (half of it)). The PvZ matchup is just working that way currently, and in this defensive macro style Zerg can die at almost any time. Failing to kill an obs, one scourge short, can be equal to direct loss. And because the menace at the entrance is real and requires focus and micro, you can't pay so much attention to the drops Protoss has all the time to plan (which is why we see so much of it). 1 or 2s delay of reaction time on a storm drop = 6-10 workers down. Larva had almost perfect reaction time all along and it was also a big factor in how SoulKey did beat Rain in Ro16. I don't see how Rain played poorly, at all, in game 3. It was absolute top notch PvZ and far too many people here seemingly have absolutely no idea how good Larva currently is. Had Rain played the exact same game against Jaedong, he wouldn't have received half the criticism he got. Larva may not be very consistent still, but at his best he might just be the best Zerg. Would be funny if hero managed to beat Larva after beating both EffOrt (Ro16) and Soulkey (Ro8) though... As a last thought, the unbeatable God who just lost 3 - 1 against EffOrt ; the now-official ASL 4 winner (or Bisu) because Rain and Soulkey are out (you people should just focus on Tennis and NBA, upsets apparently are not something you understand, despite Shine in ASL3, despite Last and BeSt out in Ro24, and so on), stated himself during the Ro16 drawing ceremony that the biggest dark horse ("potentially winning despite the odds") in the tournament was Larva. Maybe try showing some recognition to Larva's talent rather than shitting on Rain. | ||
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Nematocyst
United States164 Posts
On October 16 2017 10:26 L_Master wrote: Oh, and for anyone that isn't convinced that Larva's ZvP defense is THAT good...it is. Exhibit A:  Bisu vs  LarvaThis is Shuttle vs Jaedong, several are observing, including Larva and Bisu. Edit: Nevermind. it is Bisu vs Larva if you skip to 11:10. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 18 2017 05:10 Nematocyst wrote: This is Shuttle vs Jaedong, several are observing, including Larva and Bisu. Edit: Nevermind. it is Bisu vs Larva if you skip to 11:10. I set it up with a time link. Odd that it didn't jump to the correct spot o.O | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
On October 16 2017 08:29 _Animus_ wrote: watching game 3 and i feel a bit funny for all the people who was trying to convince me Larva is the man to take down Flash. Larva almost constantly on even bases with protoss, how that can be a macro zerg who will beat flash in BO series lol LOL. You again? Do you realize that ZvP and ZvT are completely different match ups? Nowadays Larva's best MU is ZvT (relatively, considering ZvP is easier for the Z). His ZvP is good but his main style of play doesn't match well against a dynamic toss that keeps harassing you on multiple fronts without missing macro rotations and keep his micro at the best level (basically, Rain and Bisu). Still, in the last game after almost breaking Larva's 3rd base Rain then elevated 8 zeas on Larva's main while attacking his natural and miraculously Larva held that attack. It was amazing. He kept lossing drones at the end of Rain's attempts to break the natural and he managed to keep himself in the game. Anyways, I remember in the first thread I think there was esportsjohn or his partner saying Light was favorite over Larva; Now, He's already at the r4. Only lost 1 game, IIRC.I said it back then and I kept saying throughout this season that Larva had become a S Level player. And I said that if people play standard against him, they will probably lose on the new maps. And seeing Flash's stream, he's not playing the standard fast expo - 5rax +1 into mech switch against Larva. On some maps he's not switching to mech at all and on others he opens up with valks or wraiths/ports to keep larva at bay and make he loses scourges to set up some big drops later on and only then make the switch. But on most games he's not playing his standard and so the called "imba" style against freaking larva. Now, lets hope he doesn't lose to Hero in the pathetic zvz semifinal. Because if hes doesn't choke, he's gonna put up a show against Flash. (drops are his weakness right now, but considering how he was fast reacting against Rain he's prolly way too focused offline to get caught off guard | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 19 2017 13:14 mcmascote wrote: LOL. You again? Do you realize that ZvP and ZvT are completely different match ups? Nowadays Larva's best MU is ZvT (relatively, considering ZvP is easier for the Z). His ZvP is good but his main style of play doesn't match well against a dynamic toss that keeps harassing you on multiple fronts without missing macro rotations and keep his micro at the best level (basically, Rain and Bisu). Still, in the last game after almost breaking Larva's 3rd base Rain then elevated 8 zeas on Larva's main while attacking his natural and miraculously Larva held that attack. It was amazing. He kept lossing drones at the end of Rain's attempts to break the natural and he managed to keep himself in the game. Anyways, I remember in the first thread I think there was esportsjohn or his partner saying Light was favorite over Larva; Now, He's already at the r4. Only lost 1 game, IIRC.I said it back then and I kept saying throughout this season that Larva had become a S Level player. And I said that if people play standard against him, they will probably lose on the new maps. And seeing Flash's stream, he's not playing the standard fast expo - 5rax +1 into mech switch against Larva. On some maps he's not switching to mech at all and on others he opens up with valks or wraiths/ports to keep larva at bay and make he loses scourges to set up some big drops later on and only then make the switch. But on most games he's not playing his standard and so the called "imba" style against freaking larva. Now, lets hope he doesn't lose to Hero in the pathetic zvz semifinal. Because if hes doesn't choke, he's gonna put up a show against Flash. (drops are his weakness right now, but considering how he was fast reacting against Rain he's prolly way too focused offline to get caught off guard +1 5rax is going out of style because Zerg players are getting more consistent with defending their 3rd base. It's all about faster vessels now. FlashFTW and I didn't think much of Larva in S3, but we've been hyping him up extensively in S4 as one of the top 3 Zergs, if not the best. Larva has the best drop defense of any Zerg by far currently. Long, scrappy games are good for him. Short games against prepared builds are his weakness. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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