EPT[ASL] Ro24 Group C - Page 15
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Even the commentators mention switching back to ground... When/which commentator? Even if there was a switch to ground, it wouldn't have helped against that push which was the deciding moment of the game. He'd have less forces overall and he wouldn't even have been able to contest it. The notion that a switch to pure gateway units at that point in time would have helped is ridiculous. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:12 mishimaBeef wrote: It's not, terran didn't even move out, the poked and then retreated. Look the time of the start of the video add +3 gateway and no more carrier. The time you linked is 1:24:40. The time the push is all the way in is 1:26:40. That gives him time to make 3 gateways and make 3 zealots out of each of those gateways. That's 9 more zealots instead of carriers/interceptors, and that's after letting the Terran push all the way into position. That's a 1350 mineral investment for nine zealots against a fortified position. 100% not worth it. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:29 mishimaBeef wrote: Well, looking at that terran composition of what 6 tanks, you'd rather have two extra carriers than zealots against all those goliaths? 2 carriers + actually rebuilding interceptors vs. 9 zealots against a fortified position. Hell yeah I'd pick the carriers. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:31 neobowman wrote: 2 carriers + actually rebuilding interceptors vs. 9 zealots against a fortified position. Hell yeah I'd pick the carriers. Lazy sure did, he just didn't pick a fight with them. I am still not sure even a pre-planned switch to ground would make economic sense, just like you say. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:35 mishimaBeef wrote: Did you consider that cutting off reinforcements and having 16 zealots flood in from the west of that fortified position gives you an advantage fighting goliaths with mostly zealots? Perhaps the 4th nexus is temporarily lost. You are way overestimating how bad goliaths are against ground. Yes, goliaths straight up cost for cost against zealot dragoon is bad. But there's a reason why there have been 0 players in the history of pro brood war to fake a fleet beacon while going arbiters to bait goliaths instead of vultures. 9 extra zealots would not have been nearly as good as the carriers there. Ask any pro or semi-decent player. The mistake was not that he stuck with carriers. Flash even says he would have won that engagement as it happened in the game if he took it. Zealots would not have helped there. Edit: Here's Flash going, "Fight! If he fights he wins! | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:07 Alpha-NP- wrote: How do I go back and watch ASL groups A B C without using Afreeca? None of those 4 guys have it on their twitch profiles. Is it in youtube? Small VOD thread is your friend | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On September 13 2017 22:07 Djabanete wrote: Cryoc, I don't understand what you're responding to. The part of your post that I bolded doesn't seem like a non sequitur to the bolded part of the post you responded to. If someone scans the front yard natural, the main, and the backyard natural, how is that the same as blind countering a possible fast carrier build? It's the opposite of blind countering. Are you trying to say that Mind was in danger of wasting scans if the tech path was one that required scans for defense? Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Even the commentators mention switching back to ground... Not to question the wisdom of Tastosis, but I wouldn't diss Flash either. Terran God, ultimate weapon and all that. Mind's position at Lazy's 4th seemed pretty solid to me, too, but if Flash says Lazy could've won the engagement... What bugs me is the reason Lazy broke off. Was he just spooked or he believed Mind had a fourth at the ~1 o'clock? | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Thank you. I would have never figured that out without your help. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Wait, I got confused by the comment "artosis even said he got lucky with the scans" --- is the idea that Lazy got lucky? I was thinking it was Mind whom Artosis was calling lucky, and the poster you responded to almost surely thought so too. It looked to me like Mind scanned the main, saw a void, and scanned the backyard, which didn't seem like luck. But if the point is that Lazy could have been discovered sooner and wasn't, then I could understand. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
I can see how a youngster was pretty sharp comparing to mind who lost huge amount of dropships and let things slip of his hands because didnt manage to multitask well enough and then i see how absence of proscene hurt the new players and the scene itself. If rush was in team with coaches to teach and discuss the strats and scenarios in TvT Mind was long gone ez pz, because no doubt Rush execution and multitasking is just way better. Now because we dont have that, Rush and possibly many other young players just dont know how to beat older players. And instead newer players who bring higher level of play we got only veterans with declining skills. It was surprising to me that Rush like didnt know where the game is going and that battlecruisers is the only option for best cost effeciency OR after he got no more money to try kill all the buildings of his opponent when having bigger ground army which is kind of clunky idea, but not impossible. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 14 2017 04:52 _Animus_ wrote: Man, that final game! I can see how a youngster was pretty sharp comparing to mind who lost huge amount of dropships and let things slip of his hands because didnt manage to multitask well enough and then i see how absence of proscene hurt the new players and the scene itself. If rush was in team with coaches to teach and discuss the strats and scenarios in TvT Mind was long gone ez pz, because no doubt Rush execution and multitasking is just way better. Now because we dont have that, Rush and possibly many other young players just dont know how to beat older players. And instead newer players who bring higher level of play we got only veterans with declining skills. However i have to admit Rush really shouldve know where the game is going and that battlecruisers is the only option for best cost effeciency OR to kill all the buildings of his opponent when having bigger ground army which is kind of clunky idea, but not impossible. I don't fully agree. Sure, Mind likely has more experience but: On September 13 2017 15:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say. In other words, he's had some of the benefits that you speak of. Rush played well overall and had some great play but I have to hand it to Mind, he was not going to quit no matter what and played one hell of a nail biter. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:03 BigFan wrote: In other words, he's had some of the benefits that you speak of. Rush played well overall and had some great play but I have to hand it to Mind, he was not going to quit no matter what and played one hell of a nail biter. True, but in the kespa days when a player from a team goes into individual leagues, there is individual coaching to that player for every particular opponent he faces which is huge benefit for younger players + great practice partners from their team, as after kespa they were left on their own. Ive found that before asl he have only one participation at Tving OSL Ro16, i imagine he wouldve been present if bw OSLs had continued. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10524 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Youre going to tell me that a protoss who literally doesnt even have a robotics facility yet is going to be going for arbiters? And i play starcraft and i play(ed) terran. But great job with that comment. | ||
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