EPT
[ASL] Ro24 Group C
| Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
Salbahe
Philippines18 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
| ||
|
deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Rush 2:1 Lazy 1:2 Mind 0:2 Maybe, many people don't agree with me, but the time will prove what I said that's right. | ||
|
feckless
1099 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
Then Rush, Mind, Lazy, who knows? Mind has been performing well but wouldn't be the first time he didn't deliver & up-and-coming players in the group selection ceremony is always fun so I'll root for a surprise 2nd place today. | ||
|
TT1
Canada10000 Posts
| ||
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish2 for the live stream! | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
reemphasizing blind-rawr. that's disgusting. | ||
|
kjwcj
Australia1064 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
| ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:07 SCC-Faust wrote: Rooting for Lazy and Rush. SACRILEGE | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:08 PVJ wrote: Weird, I thought a number of Effort's fans would come down Didn't effort loose a bunch during the drunk streams and then not performing for a bit? | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:08 PVJ wrote: Weird, I thought a number of Effort's fans would come down everyones just waiting for jaednog lol | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:08 PVJ wrote: Weird, I thought a number of Effort's fans would come down they are proly the fans of effort :D | ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:09 Arvendilin wrote: Didn't effort loose a bunch during the drunk streams and then not performing for a bit? What were this streams? Also, i fucking love the name skull desert | ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
hitthat
Poland2262 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:17 Twinkle Toes wrote: I still cant get over the sc:r graphics quality. well except for the malnourished zealots It looks better if they disable real-time lighting but apparently Blizzard put guns to their heads to stream it with it on. | ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
| ||
|
CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
| ||
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
| ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
| ||
|
ddengster
Singapore129 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:21 GTR wrote: yooi also known for throwing away an hour long game against nada in proleague https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmzyn02lRn0 holy shit holy wars by megadeth wtf i love yooi now | ||
|
Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:24 ddengster wrote: are there any livestreams without Afreeca's site? the flash player requirement keeps me away you can set the player to HTML5, click the cog at the bottom of the player. | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
Should be a nice TvT game coming up. | ||
|
Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:22 Twinkle Toes wrote: And i just noticed the light animation with dragoon photon beams! COOOOL! Yea for Protoss shooting effects its super fucking awesome, but for some other stuff especially Terran stuff it looks kinda bad | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
| ||
|
ddengster
Singapore129 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:25 Garrl wrote: you can set the player to HTML5, click the cog at the bottom of the player. It worked, thanks! | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Why is it no longer on Twitch/YT? | ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:30 Ansibled wrote: Oh Afreeca actually works for me today without a massive amount of buffering. Why is it no longer on Twitch/YT? They explained it here on TL with a thread. Basically it makes no sense for a league which is held by a streaming service, to be streamed on another platform. They are working on setting up new servers so foreigners can watch without a problem. For anyone having problems, i set the settings to "High" instead of "Source" and with that i don't have any lag issues. Watching from Germany. | ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
| ||
|
Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:32 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: They explained it here on TL with a thread. Basically it makes no sense for a league which is held by a streaming service, to be streamed on another platform. They are working on setting up new servers so foreigners can watch without a problem. For anyone having problems, i set the settings to "High" instead of "Source" and with that i don't have any lag issues. Watching from Germany. Well as long as Afreeca is actually watchable I don't have a problem with it I guess, you lose a massive amount of visibility by not being on Twitch though. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:34 Ansibled wrote: Well as long as Afreeca is actually watchable I don't have a problem with it I guess, you lose a massive amount of visibility by not being on Twitch though. Yeah i guess it could be wiser for them to stream it, atleast on Youtube which is not seen as a direct competitor to Afreeca i guess. However i think we as foreigners finally have to accept that Starcraft is a primarily Korean business/sport and the few thousand foreign viewers don't count as much. Go Mind!!! | ||
|
negativedge
4279 Posts
never change, artosis | ||
|
Puosu
6984 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:38 negativedge wrote: "mostly both of us think about tasteless all day long" never change, artosis I haven't tuned in in a while and damn am I cracking up at their banter. Never change Tastosis. | ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:36 Greg_J wrote: Tasteless and Artosis are making it sound like they have never seen a TvT before. I'm really disappointed by their commentary for years now. I tried watching an old Tasteless commentary of the GOMTV-Classic tournament and he was 100 times better compared to nowadays. I really think they stopped improving and lost their drive. Switched to Korean commentary long ago. Can't understand a word, however i won't get fed useless observations that i as regular player know anyways. Plus it has more emotions. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Best thing about commentators is they only add content. If people like them they can listen if they don't they can watch without them. | ||
|
CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Which brings me to my next question. WHo is Rush? | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:48 Aylear wrote: That wasn't too surprising a result, but I'm surprised by this doom dropship play of late. gold rush and crossing field pretty much scream for it | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:39 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: I'm really disappointed by their commentary for years now. I tried watching an old Tasteless commentary of the GOMTV-Classic tournament and he was 100 times better compared to nowadays. I really think they stopped improving and lost their drive. Switched to Korean commentary long ago. Can't understand a word, however i won't get fed useless observations that i as regular player know anyways. Plus it has more emotions. come check out my alternative stream! play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish2 | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:48 Greg_J wrote: Wow, smooth moves from Rush. Which brings me to my next question. WHo is Rush? r u 4 rela? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NQmaZCu.png) | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
I'm still a chance to get 2-0 in picks this time. Mind and Effort | ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:48 Greg_J wrote: Wow, smooth moves from Rush. Which brings me to my next question. WHo is Rush? Yeah, I've noticed that people forget about him even though he was in ASL season 2 and did pretty well. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:52 Greg_J wrote: My memory is pretty terrible. But yeah, I don't recall the name. You used to know that name back in the snipe days. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
Lol, don't sweat it greg haha. | ||
|
oEkY
Germany648 Posts
lol, guess i was wrong  | ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
never mind rush fucked up even more LOL | ||
|
coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:02 GTR wrote: effort fucked up there hard | ||
|
[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
| ||
|
LV_426
Poland432 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
| ||
|
RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
| ||
|
reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
| ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:06 reminisce12 wrote: most games this asl so far have been pretty one sided That's the usual story of ro24 group play. It always gets way better from 16 onwards. | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
| ||
|
SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:06 reminisce12 wrote: most games this asl so far have been pretty one sided Ro24 for the most part looks one sided, of course its going to play out that way. | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
 ))))) | ||
|
ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: Ro24 for the most part looks one sided, of course its going to play out that way. At least Stork vs Last was amazing. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
But yeah watch Stork Vs Last if you haven't seen it. That's Broodwar at it's finest. | ||
|
pinkbowtie1
23 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:07 mishimaBeef wrote: rush gg'ed with more supply O_o Zerg always has lower supply than other races. Rush looked very defeated in his facecam, I wonder if mental coaching could have helped career practice partners bridge the gap with A-teamers. With players going solo and no team leagues in sight I doubt we'll ever know. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Anyway, Mind's seen them. Let's see how this goes. He should have enough time to respond. | ||
|
epi
Canada115 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
oEkY
Germany648 Posts
 | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:29 Arvendilin wrote: What Tasteless said works only if you never have them stop moving, if you stop moving they go back in and get repaired, right? Yeah. If the Carriers stop moving they recollect the Interceptors, which means they will have to be redeployed again as new, full-health Interceptors. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
| ||
|
nojok
France15845 Posts
| ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:26 epi wrote: The map doesn't seem cliffy enough to me for carriers? Maybe it is. Still no Katrina. its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:36 FlaShFTW wrote: its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late. artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ? | ||
|
oEkY
Germany648 Posts
edit: arg, no diagonal positioning ^^ | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:40 mishimaBeef wrote: artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ? he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb. | ||
|
hasuprotoss
United States4612 Posts
| ||
|
epi
Canada115 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:36 FlaShFTW wrote: its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late. I can see the similarities, but it's not THAT much like Heartbreak Ridge. HBR had a central area that was small and was only accessed through tight corridors, with cliffs on every side of the central space. Crossing Field basically only has cliffs on the left and right sides of the central space and the ramps into it are broad. I remember on HBR Protoss could hop carriers from cliff to cliff, forcing Terran players to walk around constantly, and it doesn't look to me like anything like that is doable on Crossing Field. | ||
|
razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
EffOrt putting in effort and wins. Lazy has been lazy and makes lazy plays. Mind has been using his mind, perhaps using too much of his mind by overthinking against Rush. Rush rushed to doom drop and wins, then Rush rushed that push out a little too soon and gets stop lurked to death. ... Yeah sorry, the games have been kinda lack-luster tonight ^_^; Gotta entertain myself ya know? Also found it funny how the players' names were kinda the opposite of each other: effort vs lazy, mind vs rush | ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6546 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Come on Mind! | ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
EDIT: Ugh nvm as soon as I say that Mind takes out 12 o clock. | ||
|
superjoppe
Sweden3683 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:06 superjoppe wrote: Impossible to see the difference between orange and brown Goliaths I can tell the difference but the pre-order CCs are lol | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
| ||
|
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:35 nojok wrote: This map looks terrible for carreers, it seems too easy to control a big chunk of goliaths compared to the usual carreers maps. Am I missing something? even bisu has beaten flash on this map with carriers that should tell you everything | ||
|
wander
Japan45 Posts
| ||
|
TT1
Canada10000 Posts
| ||
|
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3809 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:17 Greg_J wrote: I'm not a TvT expert but isn't the drop play normally more to drop the other guys army. And more amusingly to counter drop someone elses drop. I don't remeber (and you know my memory) such aggresive massive drops right into the heart of the other players before. Not unless you have the advantage already. It's super risky and don't have the opportunity that often, but you are always looking for it. | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:17 Greg_J wrote: I'm not a TvT expert but isn't the drop play normally more to drop the other guys army. And more amusingly to counter drop someone elses drop. I don't remeber (and you know my memory) such aggresive massive drops right into the heart of the other players before. Not unless you have the advantage already. "Doom drops" are basically the finishing move for every TvT. You're always trying to hit the opponents production facilities with your drops because it's almost impossible to clean up a fully sieged blob of siege tanks in your main base. It's pretty common if the game gets into a stalemate. | ||
|
SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
| ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
| ||
|
Fraggle
Norway105 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
razorsuKe
Canada2000 Posts
tast/art making this shit extra good | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
GAME | ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
FREAKIN GAME | ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
RHoudini
Belgium3627 Posts
| ||
|
KrulAsfaltuf
Zimbabwe70 Posts
| ||
|
Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
I lost my will to live there for a while, but hey. | ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
| ||
|
juvenal
2448 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
nanaoei
3358 Posts
he lose 2k worth of supply depots | ||
|
Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
| ||
|
wander
Japan45 Posts
| ||
|
Fraggle
Norway105 Posts
| ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
MY GOD MIND PARK SUNG GYOON | ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: This deserves more options | ||
|
SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
| ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
yes | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
 | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
many mistakes by Mind and Rush, but still very intense game nevertheless | ||
|
Skybrod
Russian Federation19 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:29 Immaterial wrote: I just have no idea how progamers can play a ~50 minute game like that and not be completely dead afterwards :O Just crazy yea after 25 minutes my game falls completely apart. And I am not even close to be as fast as they are even before. | ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:30 Greg_J wrote: I still don't understand how Mind didn't die. He didn't just lose all his supply depot's he was forced to Rush Mine from the 12 O'clock which should have been his and most of the resources from the middle. But he just hung in there. Rush was Mindfucked | ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:32 Keniji wrote: I wonder if mind would have gg'd earlier that game if it wasn't the final game. probably not, rush never attacked efficiently enough for mind to feel like he'd lost, and he had a huge bank for a majority of the game. | ||
|
LCC
Canada348 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:28 juvenal wrote: I swear one can not possibly tell the difference between yellow and brown SCVs/CCs with these graphics. This. Dynamic lighting legitimately makes it harder to differentiate these sort of things, even stuff like marines and medics can be hard to tell apart at a glance. Terran in general looks like it's covered in ash with it on. | ||
|
asel
Germany1599 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:34 LCC wrote: This. Dynamic lighting legitimately makes it harder to differentiate these sort of things, even stuff like marines and medics can be hard to tell apart at a glance. Terran in general looks like it's covered in ash with it on. didn't kespa broadcast used to ally one player and use yellow/red if the colors were bad? | ||
|
GTR
51425 Posts
| ||
|
oEkY
Germany648 Posts
| ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:35 GTR wrote: except you can't do that with the new observer interface That is not an improvement. | ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
The technology isn't there yet. | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
When he lost the middle for the 2nd time after he sent some of his army to the north position I thought it was over for him. | ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Do we count taking the 12 O'clock that should have been Mind's as going up two bases alone? because taking the centre as well makes Rush 3 bases up. Or does maths not work like that. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:36 r33k wrote: Big props to FlashFTW for the educated casting, identifying the supply count being held hostage by Rush's dropship being the reason for their armies being at equal power even when he had a 50 supply lead is something that most commentators would have missed and arguably the most important call of the game. Thanks! Although I feel like I realized it far too late when I had already started counting Mind out. But yes, even with a huge supply lead, Rush was not trading favorably and most of the supply was still in the dropships which allowed Mind to hold on. Mind's defenses that game were absolutely insane and being able to retake the middle was so important. Really feel like Rush gave up a lot this game, needed to hold the middle to just squeeze out a couple more goliaths or tanks would have been the end of mind but alas, mistakes happen. BCs in late game terran reign supreme and Mind knew that with yamato he'd win the game. Thanks all for listening in! My voice is completely gone from that last game I'm surprised I kept it up the entire cast like that but hey, proud of myself for lasting that long | ||
|
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
|
Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:47 Greg_J wrote: He wasn't just down in supply he had to rebuild all his depot's and fair chunk of the rest of his base. That's super expensive in a game that went to the point of mining out and with Rush bascially going two bases up on him too. Do we count taking the 12 O'clock that should have been Mind's as going up two bases alone? because taking the centre as well makes Rush 3 bases up. Or does maths not work like that. 12 was never supposed to be minds in a split scenario. In the end they mined pretty much the exact same amount. Mind right side and 6 (including right side of the mid base). Rush left side and 12 (including left side of the mid base) | ||
|
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:49 FlaShFTW wrote: Thanks! Although I feel like I realized it far too late when I had already started counting Mind out. But yes, even with a huge supply lead, Rush was not trading favorably and most of the supply was still in the dropships which allowed Mind to hold on. Mind's defenses that game were absolutely insane and being able to retake the middle was so important. Really feel like Rush gave up a lot this game, needed to hold the middle to just squeeze out a couple more goliaths or tanks would have been the end of mind but alas, mistakes happen. BCs in late game terran reign supreme and Mind knew that with yamato he'd win the game. Thanks all for listening in! My voice is completely gone from that last game I'm surprised I kept it up the entire cast like that but hey, proud of myself for lasting that long You did great! I'm really glad a casting team like yours is being allowed to happen, especially with Artosis and Tasteless going so far overboard in the opposite direction I have no idea who would want to listen to them. This is the first time since Klazart I've been happy to listen to an English cast over the Korean one. | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
| ||
|
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
 | ||
|
PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
On September 12 2017 21:28 juvenal wrote: I swear one can not possibly tell the difference between yellow and brown SCVs/CCs with these graphics. Ghosts are even harder to differentiate, thankfully unless you're playing Poker D such issues never eventuate... | ||
|
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:07 The_Red_Viper wrote: So was the last game actually worth the watch? The poll was a bit biased yes | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
FS bringing the good games I expected out of Gold Rush! | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Yet, there he made it to the Ro16. Anyway, keep fighting, these were some great games from him! | ||
|
chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
| ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:49 chuDr3t4 wrote: Big shoutout to FlaShFTW, I finally somewhat understand TvT tank/drop wars after watching your cast today. I second that for sure, it was great ^^ | ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
| ||
|
Immaterial
Canada510 Posts
On September 13 2017 00:19 Dante08 wrote: So the TvT was good? I'm abit skeptical since Light's TvT from the last ASL lol Definitely worth watching in my opinion, pretty crazy game. | ||
|
PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:49 chuDr3t4 wrote: Big shoutout to FlaShFTW, I finally somewhat understand TvT tank/drop wars after watching your cast today. Much love and thank you gor the support! | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
okum
France5778 Posts
| ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
I feel bad for Rush. Guy played two fantastic TvTs and was so close to winning that game. Must hurt like mad but there can only be one winner and I personally wanted Mind to win. Should be interesting to see him and EffOrt in the group selection ceremony. Really hope Jaedong also wins his group and joins as well. Congrats to both players for some well played and hard fought games (well, EffOrt kinda cruished through due to Lazy's odd first game and Rush falling to hold lurkers twice and completely mistargeting = like my TvZ games haha) | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 13 2017 02:38 BigFan wrote: Also, someone mentioned dropship play in TvT earlier. When late late game TvT became a matchup where it was a struggle for air supremacy, dropship play fell heavily and was eventually phased out in favour of getting a larger wraith/valkyrie force. After all, if you can control the sky, you can "easily" snipe at weakly defended position and constantly poke around etc... I think it's only in the last year or so that we've been seeing more dropship play though my memory is a bit hazy so I could be wrong here. Hopefully we see a combination of the two going forward. Wraith/valks wars are fantastic to watch imo and just as entertaining as dropship play. I think what happened was people were like "hey i can kill dropships with wraith/valk! Let me use that instead" and then both players ended up in wraith/valk wars which quickly became a battle of cat/mouse until a big air fight in which one side would end up winning the game. Then it went back to goliath tech (Sharp vs Last i think was when it was shown) where copious amounts of goliaths spread out on the map could end up beating even large wraith fleets. So then players gave up on big air fleets and were back to the dropship game. | ||
|
Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
| ||
|
Glioburd
France1911 Posts
On September 12 2017 23:07 The_Red_Viper wrote: So was the last game actually worth the watch? The poll was a bit biased Yes, totally | ||
|
Heartland
Sweden24580 Posts
| ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
| ||
|
wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
On September 13 2017 02:55 Qikz wrote: That game proved why I love TvT and it's my favourite match. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time and it could've ended either way up until the very last mineral. Amazing. Grossss. This may have been the one time I have ever seen a tvt that was as epic as this but I almost always try to end my TvT's quickly just because they often times devolve into these and are just too taxing to play | ||
|
Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
| ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
| ||
|
RouaF
France4120 Posts
If you want english vods head here : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK5eBtuoj_HkdXKHNmBLAXg/videos | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 13 2017 04:22 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: I would say last game is recommended only if you have time or love TvT. I mean, it takes almost 50 minutes... Also maybe I wasn't so thrilled because its only a round of 24 game and I don't particularly know/care about these two players so it wasn't that thrilling. That Last v Stork game was definitely much more interesting to watch. This was definitely a recommended tvt... i hate the matchup with a passion but i give credit where credit is due and this game delivered. | ||
|
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 13 2017 04:27 Cryoc wrote: Does anyone know, if the Korean VOD gets also uploaded somewhere to Youtube? While the streams on Afreeca are lagfree with lower resolution setting, you cannot lower the quality of their VODs so they lag. This is such a bizarre limitation. Anyone with any contact with Afreeca should mention this to them. Although it costs extra compute resources, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to offer lower quality for at least important VODs. | ||
|
KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
| ||
|
Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:42 FlaShFTW wrote: he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb. Hi, I said that Lazy was lucky because the first 2 scans missed the Carrier tech. I'd appreciate it if the Mods on this site would do their jobs and issue warnings for slander. | ||
|
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 13 2017 07:20 Artosis wrote: Hi, I said that Lazy was lucky because the first 2 scans missed the Carrier tech. I'd appreciate it if the Mods on this site would do their jobs and issue warnings for slander. Didn't you say that carriers have an upgrade to increase how fast interceptors launch? Artosis knows nothing about Brood War gg. Nah jk you're the best commentator. I think the other guy was kidding and just took a jab because he's a small-time commentator and has to get them jabs in. It's the internet; people will be stupid. | ||
|
epicdoom
United States489 Posts
day9 please cast | ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
On September 13 2017 04:22 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: I would say last game is recommended only if you have time or love TvT. I mean, it takes almost 50 minutes... Also maybe I wasn't so thrilled because its only a round of 24 game and I don't particularly know/care about these two players so it wasn't that thrilling. That Last v Stork game was definitely much more interesting to watch. I think the comment about caring about the players applies to all mirror match ups. If you really care about one of the players and really want them to win a tense ZvZ is so exciting. You can't hold your breathe, every engagement is cruical and could be the end. If you don't really know the players not so much. | ||
|
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 13 2017 08:11 Greg_J wrote: I think the comment about caring about the players applies to all mirror match ups. If you really care about one of the players and really want them to win a tense ZvZ is so exciting. You can't hold your breathe, every engagement is cruical and could be the end. If you don't really know the players not so much. Also, most of the people voting saw the game live. So, when considering that the percentage of viewers recommending a game as a random variable representing the probability it's worth watching, the Bayesian probability given that it's known it's 50 minutes would be different. Because knowing ahead of time it's 50 minutes means you know it's epic and down to the last minute, so you'd be more likely to guess Rush loses despite being ahead for a while. If you like watching SC and just happened to miss this game, and can watch it completely spoiler free, it's definitely worth the 50 minutes. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 13 2017 07:41 Ancestral wrote: Didn't you say that carriers have an upgrade to increase how fast interceptors launch? Artosis knows nothing about Brood War gg. Nah jk you're the best commentator. I think the other guy was kidding and just took a jab because he's a small-time commentator and has to get them jabs in. It's the internet; people will be stupid. Lol. | ||
|
CHEONSOYUN
517 Posts
im sad rush didn't get out of the group.i've been watching and learning from his stream a lot recently | ||
|
Headshot
United States1656 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On September 13 2017 04:13 wussleeQ wrote: Grossss. This may have been the one time I have ever seen a tvt that was as epic as this but I almost always try to end my TvT's quickly just because they often times devolve into these and are just too taxing to play I get tired just thinking about it. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 13 2017 07:41 Ancestral wrote: Didn't you say that carriers have an upgrade to increase how fast interceptors launch? Artosis knows nothing about Brood War gg. Nah jk you're the best commentator. I think the other guy was kidding and just took a jab because he's a small-time commentator and has to get them jabs in. It's the internet; people will be stupid. Tbf, FlashFTW was just responding to the text above. He couldn't know what the actual context for "lucky" because he wasn't watching Artosis...he was casting the game. In any case, Lazy was "lucky" that Mind didn't scan the tech directly, but Mind gained all the information he needed to conclude fast carriers. And that map is a terrible arbiter map because you can't split it with a second main. We saw that clearly on Day 1 with the match between Light and Sky. Carriers are the only way you can stall in the center of the map and protect your bases. (The carrier upgrade for faster interceptor launching is from SC2. I believe it was removed in LotV.) | ||
|
reincremate
China2213 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 13 2017 11:52 reincremate wrote: Anyone else notice that the one game on Fighting Spirit is always super highly recomended? Or at least so far for groups A, B and C. Love that map. quite likely because the players have played so many games on it that they know overall how to approach the matchup while Gold Rush and Crossing Fields are two maps that were just sprung on them last minute, thus, less time to prep and practice. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 13 2017 12:03 BigFan wrote: quite likely because the players have played so many games on it that they know overall how to approach the matchup while Gold Rush and Crossing Fields are two maps that were just sprung on them last minute, thus, less time to prep and practice. i just want to see what gold rush was designed for, some sick sair/reaver in PvZ, crazy drops with terran vs zerg on both sides, and my beloved carriers in PvT. | ||
|
reincremate
China2213 Posts
On September 13 2017 12:03 BigFan wrote: quite likely because the players have played so many games on it that they know overall how to approach the matchup while Gold Rush and Crossing Fields are two maps that were just sprung on them last minute, thus, less time to prep and practice. I personally enjoy watching games on those maps and am always excited to see new maps. But having a classic macro map in a major tournament pool is a good way to produce great games, despite the fact that the maps are arguably fundamentally flawed in minor ways or "overplayed". | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 13 2017 12:09 FlaShFTW wrote: i just want to see what gold rush was designed for, some sick sair/reaver in PvZ, crazy drops with terran vs zerg on both sides, and my beloved carriers in PvT. hopefully we'll see an interesting game or two on it before Ro24 is up. On September 13 2017 12:11 reincremate wrote: I personally enjoy watching games on those maps and am always excited to see new maps. But having a classic macro map in a major tournament pool is a good way to produce great games, despite the fact that the maps are arguably fundamentally flawed in minor ways or "overplayed". I would've rather had CB but FS has lead to great games so far so no issues with it. Agree with your post overall. | ||
|
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 13 2017 11:01 EsportsJohn wrote: Tbf, FlashFTW was just responding to the text above. He couldn't know what the actual context for "lucky" because he wasn't watching Artosis...he was casting the game. In any case, Lazy was "lucky" that Mind didn't scan the tech directly, but Mind gained all the information he needed to conclude fast carriers. And that map is a terrible arbiter map because you can't split it with a second main. We saw that clearly on Day 1 with the match between Light and Sky. Carriers are the only way you can stall in the center of the map and protect your bases. (The carrier upgrade for faster interceptor launching is from SC2. I believe it was removed in LotV.) I was just jabbing back at FlashFTW. I know you guys are a team and I enjoy your commentary too. I appreciate all of the above for their contributions to the community. | ||
|
Freezard
Sweden1010 Posts
| ||
|
Greg_J
China4409 Posts
| ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
| ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 13 2017 13:50 Djabanete wrote: That last game was amazing. Mind eked out an advantage by mining the center and was eventually going to win by starving Rush out. Rush's drop on the main was a great play and was the kind of thing Flash would have done to turn the game around (I have seen him beat Mind this way when the map split was bad). Then Rush also dropped the upper right, where Mind was trying to rebuild, and I figured Mind was dead because his tech was in disarray and he was supply capped at about 140 while Rush was at 200 and dropping huge groups of tanks anywhere he wanted, and he'd also taken the center. Then Mind made the patient, correct play of getting to Battlecruisers first and chiseling away at Rush's defenses around the few mineral patches left on the map. This was also the sort of thing Flash would have done (I have seen him beat both Last and Mind this way when the map split was bad). I thought Mind was done for but he pulled it off. Great game. (And can you tell I am a Flash fan and regard him as the ultimate source of TvT know-how?) so basically, play like FlaSh and win the game? seems like a legitimate strategy. | ||
|
usopsama
6502 Posts
| ||
|
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
On September 13 2017 14:45 usopsama wrote: The last game really shows the difference in experience between a veteran pro-gamer and a high-level amateur. Rush lost so many fucking units dropping in front of siege tank. He was never able to use his mid-game advantage to utterly cripple Mind's economy. If he had killed either the 1 o' clock or the 2 o' clock base, he would have won. A lot of his engagements were inefficient and generally did not serve a large purpose. That said, he has grown A LOT since the last ASL. I hope he gets even stronger before the next ASL. Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say. | ||
|
usopsama
6502 Posts
On September 13 2017 15:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say. You are right. My mistake. For some reason, I thought he was an amateur that got really good completely from laddering. Maybe I am thinking of someone else. | ||
|
Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 13 2017 15:39 usopsama wrote: You are right. My mistake. For some reason, I thought he was an amateur that got really good completely from laddering. Maybe I am thinking of someone else. \I think that's the Terran Shinee right? | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
On September 13 2017 19:06 mishimaBeef wrote: How do you hide carrier better than that for terran not to conclude you've gone fast carriers? I seen a game where P was hiding them in another main vs Flash on CB. Flash was scanning around and didn't find anything and being Flash he runs a vulture to that main and finds the carriers. Generally you want to keep them in your bases but I think hiding them somewhere else could be a good idea. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 12 2017 20:42 FlaShFTW wrote: he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb. I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2017 20:36 Cryoc wrote: I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back. Ouch. Btw I have no idea about protoss BOs and timings and stuff, but isn't it kind of an expensive bait teching all the way to carriers on two base just to force the Terran to goliaths and then somehow expand twice behind 4 carriers and 2 base ground, and I'm assuming slow zealots? Isn't a 3 base 2/1 push going to wreck that? | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
terran: 5 tanks at front getting facts 5, 6 made marine goliath invested in turrets toss: up 15 supply getting 5th gate at 4 carriers has 500 minerals for 3 more gates, would be total 8 gateways 4th nexus, citadel, observatory planted | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
EDIT: But then again, isn't that exactly what happened next? He got pushed and he lost a ton of economy when he decided not to save his 4th at the bottom for some reason - and 2/1 kicked in right afterwards, I think. During the initial push Mind was still 1/0. I didn't see the upgrades for a bit and then, right after the Protoss army went to the ~1 o'clock, Terran was already 2/1. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 13 2017 20:36 Cryoc wrote: I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back. Cryoc, I don't understand what you're responding to. The part of your post that I bolded seems like a non sequitur to the bolded part of the post you responded to. If someone scans the front yard natural, the main, and the backyard natural, how is that the same as blind countering a possible fast carrier build? It's the opposite of blind countering. Are you trying to say that Mind was in danger of wasting scans if the tech path was one that required scans for defense? | ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Regrding the losers match, Flash was saying Lazys build was very good and that the carrier timing was really well planned out. He messed up because he should have engaged when Mind was going for the push on the 4th instead of going for a counterattack on an empty base. If he takes that engagement, he wins. He misplayed, let the base die and let Mind take control. Last game he was calling that Mind should be teching to BCs and was super happy when he did and was like "I told you guys!" When he did. His commentary is super informative. I love JD but hes a bit less informed on non zerg matchups and has a tendency to prematurely call "he's won" or "he's lost" very often. On September 13 2017 22:06 mishimaBeef wrote: During the push he coulda had 16 more zealots easily when they fought around 6 o clock. Like looking at what the carriers #5+ did they played into the terran hands, while after the first 4, terran already invested in turrets and goliaths, I don't know if he was scanning the stargates to see if they were still producing. Are you suggesting he just stop going for carriers? He's invested far more in the carriers than minds invested in stopping them. There is almost never a scenario where switching away from carriers after you've gone for them is good. You say 16 more zealots but that would imply he had the gateway count to support that production. He didnt and he certainly didnt have time to add them. The problem was that he didn't fight with the carriers, not that he didn't switch off of them. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Even the commentators mention switching back to ground... When/which commentator? Even if there was a switch to ground, it wouldn't have helped against that push which was the deciding moment of the game. He'd have less forces overall and he wouldn't even have been able to contest it. The notion that a switch to pure gateway units at that point in time would have helped is ridiculous. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:12 mishimaBeef wrote: It's not, terran didn't even move out, the poked and then retreated. Look the time of the start of the video add +3 gateway and no more carrier. The time you linked is 1:24:40. The time the push is all the way in is 1:26:40. That gives him time to make 3 gateways and make 3 zealots out of each of those gateways. That's 9 more zealots instead of carriers/interceptors, and that's after letting the Terran push all the way into position. That's a 1350 mineral investment for nine zealots against a fortified position. 100% not worth it. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:29 mishimaBeef wrote: Well, looking at that terran composition of what 6 tanks, you'd rather have two extra carriers than zealots against all those goliaths? 2 carriers + actually rebuilding interceptors vs. 9 zealots against a fortified position. Hell yeah I'd pick the carriers. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:31 neobowman wrote: 2 carriers + actually rebuilding interceptors vs. 9 zealots against a fortified position. Hell yeah I'd pick the carriers. Lazy sure did, he just didn't pick a fight with them. I am still not sure even a pre-planned switch to ground would make economic sense, just like you say. | ||
|
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:35 mishimaBeef wrote: Did you consider that cutting off reinforcements and having 16 zealots flood in from the west of that fortified position gives you an advantage fighting goliaths with mostly zealots? Perhaps the 4th nexus is temporarily lost. You are way overestimating how bad goliaths are against ground. Yes, goliaths straight up cost for cost against zealot dragoon is bad. But there's a reason why there have been 0 players in the history of pro brood war to fake a fleet beacon while going arbiters to bait goliaths instead of vultures. 9 extra zealots would not have been nearly as good as the carriers there. Ask any pro or semi-decent player. The mistake was not that he stuck with carriers. Flash even says he would have won that engagement as it happened in the game if he took it. Zealots would not have helped there. Edit: Here's Flash going, "Fight! If he fights he wins! | ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
| ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:07 Alpha-NP- wrote: How do I go back and watch ASL groups A B C without using Afreeca? None of those 4 guys have it on their twitch profiles. Is it in youtube? Small VOD thread is your friend | ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 13 2017 22:07 Djabanete wrote: Cryoc, I don't understand what you're responding to. The part of your post that I bolded doesn't seem like a non sequitur to the bolded part of the post you responded to. If someone scans the front yard natural, the main, and the backyard natural, how is that the same as blind countering a possible fast carrier build? It's the opposite of blind countering. Are you trying to say that Mind was in danger of wasting scans if the tech path was one that required scans for defense? Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. | ||
|
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On September 13 2017 23:03 mishimaBeef wrote: Even the commentators mention switching back to ground... Not to question the wisdom of Tastosis, but I wouldn't diss Flash either. Terran God, ultimate weapon and all that. Mind's position at Lazy's 4th seemed pretty solid to me, too, but if Flash says Lazy could've won the engagement... What bugs me is the reason Lazy broke off. Was he just spooked or he believed Mind had a fourth at the ~1 o'clock? | ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
Thank you. I would have never figured that out without your help. | ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Wait, I got confused by the comment "artosis even said he got lucky with the scans" --- is the idea that Lazy got lucky? I was thinking it was Mind whom Artosis was calling lucky, and the poster you responded to almost surely thought so too. It looked to me like Mind scanned the main, saw a void, and scanned the backyard, which didn't seem like luck. But if the point is that Lazy could have been discovered sooner and wasn't, then I could understand. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
| ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
I can see how a youngster was pretty sharp comparing to mind who lost huge amount of dropships and let things slip of his hands because didnt manage to multitask well enough and then i see how absence of proscene hurt the new players and the scene itself. If rush was in team with coaches to teach and discuss the strats and scenarios in TvT Mind was long gone ez pz, because no doubt Rush execution and multitasking is just way better. Now because we dont have that, Rush and possibly many other young players just dont know how to beat older players. And instead newer players who bring higher level of play we got only veterans with declining skills. It was surprising to me that Rush like didnt know where the game is going and that battlecruisers is the only option for best cost effeciency OR after he got no more money to try kill all the buildings of his opponent when having bigger ground army which is kind of clunky idea, but not impossible. | ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 14 2017 04:52 _Animus_ wrote: Man, that final game! I can see how a youngster was pretty sharp comparing to mind who lost huge amount of dropships and let things slip of his hands because didnt manage to multitask well enough and then i see how absence of proscene hurt the new players and the scene itself. If rush was in team with coaches to teach and discuss the strats and scenarios in TvT Mind was long gone ez pz, because no doubt Rush execution and multitasking is just way better. Now because we dont have that, Rush and possibly many other young players just dont know how to beat older players. And instead newer players who bring higher level of play we got only veterans with declining skills. However i have to admit Rush really shouldve know where the game is going and that battlecruisers is the only option for best cost effeciency OR to kill all the buildings of his opponent when having bigger ground army which is kind of clunky idea, but not impossible. I don't fully agree. Sure, Mind likely has more experience but: On September 13 2017 15:29 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say. In other words, he's had some of the benefits that you speak of. Rush played well overall and had some great play but I have to hand it to Mind, he was not going to quit no matter what and played one hell of a nail biter. | ||
|
_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On September 14 2017 05:03 BigFan wrote: In other words, he's had some of the benefits that you speak of. Rush played well overall and had some great play but I have to hand it to Mind, he was not going to quit no matter what and played one hell of a nail biter. True, but in the kespa days when a player from a team goes into individual leagues, there is individual coaching to that player for every particular opponent he faces which is huge benefit for younger players + great practice partners from their team, as after kespa they were left on their own. Ive found that before asl he have only one participation at Tving OSL Ro16, i imagine he wouldve been present if bw OSLs had continued. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Youre going to tell me that a protoss who literally doesnt even have a robotics facility yet is going to be going for arbiters? And i play starcraft and i play(ed) terran. But great job with that comment. | ||
|
srj
Canada134 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:39 Alpha-NP- wrote: Thank you. I would have never figured that out without your help. The VODs are also on Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbG6ixavW4M | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Took another look at the game. Initially, I claimed that Mind had all the information to conclude fast carriers; I revise that statement. However, I wanted to ask two significant questions:
Just as Mind lays down his initial scans (one in the main, one in the front door natural), he is starting a 3rd CC on the high ground with 3 tanks and a handful of marines while researching +1 vehicle attack mega early. After the scans, he moves down the ramp and creates a walloff to secure his front door natural while simultaneously laying down one well-placed turret in his backdoor expansion. This indicates that Mind may have been preparing for robo tech and potential drop play. In a very small way, this was definitely a victory for Lazy; although it doesn't define how the game is going to play out, it leaves Mind in the dark for a while and forces him to invest a tiny bit into anti-drop defenses. When both players are cutting corners constantly, a small edge like this may be enough to win the game (and indeed, it's very possible that Lazy could have crushed that initial push if he hadn't gone for a counterattack). Lazy was, in fact, "lucky". To follow up, Mind rushes to a Science Facility to make sure he can get his second armory down to start researching +2/+1 ASAP. At this point, he even takes a break in unit production from all his facilities to add on extra factories, ending with a total of one Machine Shop. This clearly indicates that he was intent on powering very hard on three bases and hitting a very early +2/+1 timing. After observing no drop play and noticing a distinct lack of observers, Mind is probably thinking that maybe his opponent went for something else, so he scans the backdoor expansion of Lazy to find the carriers (he actually scans this twice, once just before the camera pans over to the stargates and second as the observer is directly overhead). From there, he makes only goliaths and tanks and pushes out right as +2/+1 finishes. So my question was: if Mind scanned the carriers on the FIRST try, would he have significantly changed his build? I'm tempted to say no. He was already committed to 3-base powering with a very fast +1 at that point, and the +2/+1 timing hit at almost the perfect timing anyway. The only other course of action would have been to perhaps drop down faster facts, amass a bigger army, and then push out earlier and start turret pushing. As far as I'm concerned, Mind was more or less on the most optimal track for punishing Lazy either way, but Lazy did gain a very small edge by hiding his tech early on. | ||
|
mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
I Don't remember mind's games but Sea and Fantasy when they scout early a fast carrier build they like to push with tanks/vults and 4+ scvs then spam turrets in front of toss' choke point. I've seen Flash do it too. Toss will lose 90% of the time if carriers are scouted early, especially when you don't have an obs nor a shuttle. Considering Mind had 3expos with gas, that would push it to close to 100%. (if stargates were scouted early). Mind scouted late and should've lost that game, as Flash pointed out. Mind actually over-reacted. He only had 6 tanks, 4 vults and the rest were liaths. Lazy build was designed to own that kind of composition. 6 tanks and 4 vults (no mines laid down) against 6 carriers is nothing. He only had to micro his carriers to kill the tanks patiently, even if that meant losing his 4th base. After killing Mind's initial army without losing more than 1 carrier, it'd be over for Mind. Yeh, not counting the liaths because Lazy had a full group of goons and another of speed zeas. Kill 3/4 tanks and its over for the liaths. In fact, looking at the video again Mind definitively overreacted. He treated it as a some kind of all-in carrier build. Because he didn't reinforce that army with more tanks. Which would be normal if he first went out with 10+ tanks, then you only pump liaths, but he had very few tanks to properly fight a 8gates / 3gas toss. | ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
| ||
|
reincremate
China2213 Posts
On September 14 2017 10:51 ninazerg wrote: It was pure luck that Mind didn't scan the carriers. Mind had no idea what was going on, but he got super-lucky and happened to scan at that exact moment because he remembered the words of his dying father: "Remember to scan in random places in case of carriers, and also, the treasure is buried at these coordina... guhhh." and then he let out a death gurgle. My second point was that under his shirt, Mind was wearing a lucky rabbit's foot, which was faceted to a necklace of sorts, made from beads that were blessed by Nepalese monk. I think Mind completely forgot about the possibility of carriers and was just scanning for buried treasure but then realized the real treasure was buried inside him all along. | ||
|
vesicular
United States1310 Posts
| ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On September 14 2017 11:26 reincremate wrote: I think Mind completely forgot about the possibility of carriers and was just scanning for buried treasure but then realized the real treasure was buried inside him all along. Yeah, after the match, he heard a voice where his father said, "You found the treasure, son." "It was carriers?" Mind asked. "No, it is the truth that you are a true champion, son." "Then why were you going to give me GPS coordinates before you died?" "The answer *burp* is don't think about it." | ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 14 2017 10:14 mcmascote wrote: Maybe? But your post induces me to think you are trying to indicate that having less information on your opponent in a strategy game is as good as having more info. I know you don't think that, but one could feel that way after reading your post. Certainly not. Having full and complete information is obviously ideal, if not just for peace of mind. However, limited information doesn't necessarily mean that decision making is impossible. In this case, Mind had information that his opponent was powering on 3 bases with some kind of tech, so he made the decision to power really hard too (rushing upgrades, taking a very early third, stopping unit production to add on extra factories, etc.). This is not necessarily a faulty response to what he saw, though (from our perspective) he did waste a small amount of money on early missile turrets to defend and played unnecessarily cautiously with a wall. In this case, he didn't have to make any decisions about tech path until later in the game. I Don't remember mind's games but Sea and Fantasy when they scout early a fast carrier build they like to push with tanks/vults and 4+ scvs then spam turrets in front of toss' choke point. I've seen Flash do it too. Toss will lose 90% of the time if carriers are scouted early, especially when you don't have an obs nor a shuttle. Considering Mind had 3expos with gas, that would push it to close to 100%. (if stargates were scouted early). As I said, this is the only other possible option for Mind at that juncture in the game. It's impossible to know if he continued toward +2/+1 on erroneous information or if he concluded that it was the best move for him, but I'm tempted to believe that he would have stayed the course for +2/+1 and hit a standard timing, even against faster carriers. I'm not saying it's optimal or that it was the best decision, but I'm conjecturing that Mind probably wouldn't have gone for a blitzkrieg push anyway if he had scouted the stargates earlier. Mind scouted late and should've lost that game, as Flash pointed out. Mind actually over-reacted. He only had 6 tanks, 4 vults and the rest were liaths. Lazy build was designed to own that kind of composition. 6 tanks and 4 vults (no mines laid down) against 6 carriers is nothing. He only had to micro his carriers to kill the tanks patiently, even if that meant losing his 4th base. After killing Mind's initial army without losing more than 1 carrier, it'd be over for Mind. Yeh, not counting the liaths because Lazy had a full group of goons and another of speed zeas. Kill 3/4 tanks and its over for the liaths. Both players cut several corners in the early game. The lack of tanks was primarily due to Mind cutting production at around 3-4 tanks to get up faster factories and armories. Like I said, I believe Lazy definitely got the better end of build optimizations, especially due to Mind scouting the carriers a bit later, but I don't agree that Mind crazily overreacted and went for a YOLO desperation push. It was a standard +2/+1 timing push which was a bit more saturated with goliaths than normal because 4 carriers were already out by the time he was pushing. You instantly lose if you take that push with primarily tanks/vultures. I also think Mind knew that his normal +2/+1 timing was going to be significantly weaker than a later timing, which is why he pushed out on the south side of the map instead of cutting into the natural as is common with +2/+1 timing pushes. Tactically, Mind played it almost perfectly. Again, Lazy SHOULD have destroyed that army. He definitely had an edge there that he had built up over the course of the game, but the weird counterattack lost the game for him. In fact, looking at the video again Mind definitively overreacted. He treated it as a some kind of all-in carrier build. Because he didn't reinforce that army with more tanks. Which would be normal if he first went out with 10+ tanks, then you only pump liaths, but he had very few tanks to properly fight a 8gates / 3gas toss. If you push out with this build, you primarily reinforce with ALMOST pure goliath (only 1-2 machine shops). In this case, that's exactly what Mind did. He had a smaller number of initial siege tanks because he cut corners early on to get faster upgrades and more economy. | ||
|
FlaShFTW
United States10126 Posts
Let's look at this from Mind's POV. You scan both the main and the nat, see that he only has 2 gates, no robo, no citadel, and a 3rd coming out. This means there are practically speaking, only 3 options as Cryoc has said before: DT, arbiter, or carrier. But with DTs that late in the game, you're probably dropping them into the base with a shuttle, and no robo means pretty low chance of that happening. But just in case, you can get a turret at the other locations. How about arbiters? Well, turrets in those positions are still good, because you're doing to need them to deter recalls and have detection if a recall comes down anyways. But besides that, arbiters take forever to get off the ground and so when he initially scanned, there was no way Lazy was coming in with a recall in that position. So that doesn't really matter. The final option is carriers. Again, looking at a player grabbing a 3rd and only having 2 gates, arbiters doesn't seem likely because of only 2 gates and no robo for obs. And again, the initial turrets aren't bad because it sets up some perimeter for early carriers. We actually saw this happen when Lazy pushed with his 2 initial carriers and tried to attack Mind's natural, but already had a couple of turrets in position (obviously after the fact of the scan, but even just 1 or 2 turrets would have been enough to kind of deter Lazy's carriers). Logically, Mind's build was fine as is. He was never behind or scanned too late that would heavily impact the game in an overly negative way for him. He had plenty of time to prep for arbs, DTs were way too late at that stage of the game, and carriers as we all know take forever to build and interceptors take even longer. | ||
|
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
Of course that doesn't completely decide the outcome of the game, but saying Lazy didn't get an advantage just makes no sense, just because Mind had a very advantageous start by going 14CC into 1Fac 3rd CC and had therefore a relatively easy time to also handle it in the lategame. But if he would have missed the carriers 1 more minute, the outcome could have been very different. And regarding FlashFTW, how is doing a DT drop after a 12 Nexus opening late in the game? I recommend that you play more TvP if you think, a DT drop after Protoss takes his natural is not viable or a bad option. It is very good to delay any pushes or basically win the game if T is unprepared. Especially in this game, if Lazy would have gone for DT drop in his back instead of carriers, he would have been able to freely harrass the main, as Mind skimped on a turret there and only had 1 factory building units. | ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
| ||
|
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Next week's matches will be Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday starting at 1900 KST AKA 6:00am EDT. Look forward to seeing you there | ||
|
JiminyDickwhip
2 Posts
| ||
|
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 15 2017 10:39 JiminyDickwhip wrote: I feel like after dropping Mind's main base, Rush should've used his foothold there to push up and take out the factories. He got fixated on that top right base and gave Mind the time he needed to settle, rebuild and tech up to BCs. If he scanned the new base and scanned the old base, he'd have seen the opportunity and knew that Mind's three new starports won't do anything if he can't rebuild his mech army. Instead he flew his dropships in circles and left half a dozen tanks in the main without pushing up. It just seemed like the most obvious thing in the world, to me. Did I miss something or did he? I would say he purposely left them there. Mind wouldn't be able to build in that base anymore since they are hard to take out and considering that he was having good engagements, those couple of tanks served a good purpose. Also, keep in mind that Mind had to leave some tanks there to prevent those tanks from taking out the remaining 5 facs and to siege his exp as well. | ||
|
fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On September 15 2017 02:26 Cryoc wrote: What Mind would have done, if he scanned the carriers from the get go can only be speculated, but he wouldn't have build turrets and he would have had the option to go for a strong timing push by cutting scvs and building facs after he saw the stargates. Lazy was lucky because he didn't have to factor in this possibility and Mind had to build turrets to not die vs some kind of drop play which in turn delays any push. Of course that doesn't completely decide the outcome of the game, but saying Lazy didn't get an advantage just makes no sense, just because Mind had a very advantageous start by going 14CC into 1Fac 3rd CC and had therefore a relatively easy time to also handle it in the lategame. But if he would have missed the carriers 1 more minute, the outcome could have been very different. And regarding FlashFTW, how is doing a DT drop after a 12 Nexus opening late in the game? I recommend that you play more TvP if you think, a DT drop after Protoss takes his natural is not viable or a bad option. It is very good to delay any pushes or basically win the game if T is unprepared. Especially in this game, if Lazy would have gone for DT drop in his back instead of carriers, he would have been able to freely harrass the main, as Mind skimped on a turret there and only had 1 factory building units. Yup, FlashFTW, you're a cool caster, but what you are saying makes no sense at all Listen to Cryoc, he is the one making sense in this matter! | ||
|
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
| ||
|
Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 15 2017 19:59 Golgotha wrote: My fking god. that last game with mind vs rush. that was literally the definition of playing on a razor's edge. i really thought rush could have won.....i loved mind's reaction. goddamn i wish there were fpvods of them. Yeah I thought Mind showed a lot of grit in that game. Amazing to watch | ||
|
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
| ||
|
Starecat
936 Posts
| ||
| ||
Afreeca Starleague Season 4![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/581.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2037.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/708.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/146.jpg)
