EPTOn September 14 2017 00:39 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Thank you. I would have never figured that out without your help.
Thank you. I would have never figured that out without your help.
The VODs are also on Youtube.
[ASL] Ro24 Group C - Page 16
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srj
Canada134 Posts
The VODs are also on Youtube. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 14 2017 00:14 Cryoc wrote: Mind did not scan the backyard until his fifth scan I think, that's the whole point. If FlaShFTW would have only written the bolded part, there would be nothing to say about it. But he says it isn't lucky for Lazy to not have his tech revealed with the first scan which would open up the possibility to go for a fast timing push so his statement is just wrong. My bolded text was just giving some examples of what else Lazy could have done, which require other responses from T. Took another look at the game. Initially, I claimed that Mind had all the information to conclude fast carriers; I revise that statement. However, I wanted to ask two significant questions:
Just as Mind lays down his initial scans (one in the main, one in the front door natural), he is starting a 3rd CC on the high ground with 3 tanks and a handful of marines while researching +1 vehicle attack mega early. After the scans, he moves down the ramp and creates a walloff to secure his front door natural while simultaneously laying down one well-placed turret in his backdoor expansion. This indicates that Mind may have been preparing for robo tech and potential drop play. In a very small way, this was definitely a victory for Lazy; although it doesn't define how the game is going to play out, it leaves Mind in the dark for a while and forces him to invest a tiny bit into anti-drop defenses. When both players are cutting corners constantly, a small edge like this may be enough to win the game (and indeed, it's very possible that Lazy could have crushed that initial push if he hadn't gone for a counterattack). Lazy was, in fact, "lucky". To follow up, Mind rushes to a Science Facility to make sure he can get his second armory down to start researching +2/+1 ASAP. At this point, he even takes a break in unit production from all his facilities to add on extra factories, ending with a total of one Machine Shop. This clearly indicates that he was intent on powering very hard on three bases and hitting a very early +2/+1 timing. After observing no drop play and noticing a distinct lack of observers, Mind is probably thinking that maybe his opponent went for something else, so he scans the backdoor expansion of Lazy to find the carriers (he actually scans this twice, once just before the camera pans over to the stargates and second as the observer is directly overhead). From there, he makes only goliaths and tanks and pushes out right as +2/+1 finishes. So my question was: if Mind scanned the carriers on the FIRST try, would he have significantly changed his build? I'm tempted to say no. He was already committed to 3-base powering with a very fast +1 at that point, and the +2/+1 timing hit at almost the perfect timing anyway. The only other course of action would have been to perhaps drop down faster facts, amass a bigger army, and then push out earlier and start turret pushing. As far as I'm concerned, Mind was more or less on the most optimal track for punishing Lazy either way, but Lazy did gain a very small edge by hiding his tech early on. | ||
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mcmascote
Brazil1575 Posts
I Don't remember mind's games but Sea and Fantasy when they scout early a fast carrier build they like to push with tanks/vults and 4+ scvs then spam turrets in front of toss' choke point. I've seen Flash do it too. Toss will lose 90% of the time if carriers are scouted early, especially when you don't have an obs nor a shuttle. Considering Mind had 3expos with gas, that would push it to close to 100%. (if stargates were scouted early). Mind scouted late and should've lost that game, as Flash pointed out. Mind actually over-reacted. He only had 6 tanks, 4 vults and the rest were liaths. Lazy build was designed to own that kind of composition. 6 tanks and 4 vults (no mines laid down) against 6 carriers is nothing. He only had to micro his carriers to kill the tanks patiently, even if that meant losing his 4th base. After killing Mind's initial army without losing more than 1 carrier, it'd be over for Mind. Yeh, not counting the liaths because Lazy had a full group of goons and another of speed zeas. Kill 3/4 tanks and its over for the liaths. In fact, looking at the video again Mind definitively overreacted. He treated it as a some kind of all-in carrier build. Because he didn't reinforce that army with more tanks. Which would be normal if he first went out with 10+ tanks, then you only pump liaths, but he had very few tanks to properly fight a 8gates / 3gas toss. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
On September 14 2017 10:51 ninazerg wrote: It was pure luck that Mind didn't scan the carriers. Mind had no idea what was going on, but he got super-lucky and happened to scan at that exact moment because he remembered the words of his dying father: "Remember to scan in random places in case of carriers, and also, the treasure is buried at these coordina... guhhh." and then he let out a death gurgle. My second point was that under his shirt, Mind was wearing a lucky rabbit's foot, which was faceted to a necklace of sorts, made from beads that were blessed by Nepalese monk. I think Mind completely forgot about the possibility of carriers and was just scanning for buried treasure but then realized the real treasure was buried inside him all along. | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On September 14 2017 11:26 reincremate wrote: I think Mind completely forgot about the possibility of carriers and was just scanning for buried treasure but then realized the real treasure was buried inside him all along. Yeah, after the match, he heard a voice where his father said, "You found the treasure, son." "It was carriers?" Mind asked. "No, it is the truth that you are a true champion, son." "Then why were you going to give me GPS coordinates before you died?" "The answer *burp* is don't think about it." | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 14 2017 10:14 mcmascote wrote: Maybe? But your post induces me to think you are trying to indicate that having less information on your opponent in a strategy game is as good as having more info. I know you don't think that, but one could feel that way after reading your post. Certainly not. Having full and complete information is obviously ideal, if not just for peace of mind. However, limited information doesn't necessarily mean that decision making is impossible. In this case, Mind had information that his opponent was powering on 3 bases with some kind of tech, so he made the decision to power really hard too (rushing upgrades, taking a very early third, stopping unit production to add on extra factories, etc.). This is not necessarily a faulty response to what he saw, though (from our perspective) he did waste a small amount of money on early missile turrets to defend and played unnecessarily cautiously with a wall. In this case, he didn't have to make any decisions about tech path until later in the game. I Don't remember mind's games but Sea and Fantasy when they scout early a fast carrier build they like to push with tanks/vults and 4+ scvs then spam turrets in front of toss' choke point. I've seen Flash do it too. Toss will lose 90% of the time if carriers are scouted early, especially when you don't have an obs nor a shuttle. Considering Mind had 3expos with gas, that would push it to close to 100%. (if stargates were scouted early). As I said, this is the only other possible option for Mind at that juncture in the game. It's impossible to know if he continued toward +2/+1 on erroneous information or if he concluded that it was the best move for him, but I'm tempted to believe that he would have stayed the course for +2/+1 and hit a standard timing, even against faster carriers. I'm not saying it's optimal or that it was the best decision, but I'm conjecturing that Mind probably wouldn't have gone for a blitzkrieg push anyway if he had scouted the stargates earlier. Mind scouted late and should've lost that game, as Flash pointed out. Mind actually over-reacted. He only had 6 tanks, 4 vults and the rest were liaths. Lazy build was designed to own that kind of composition. 6 tanks and 4 vults (no mines laid down) against 6 carriers is nothing. He only had to micro his carriers to kill the tanks patiently, even if that meant losing his 4th base. After killing Mind's initial army without losing more than 1 carrier, it'd be over for Mind. Yeh, not counting the liaths because Lazy had a full group of goons and another of speed zeas. Kill 3/4 tanks and its over for the liaths. Both players cut several corners in the early game. The lack of tanks was primarily due to Mind cutting production at around 3-4 tanks to get up faster factories and armories. Like I said, I believe Lazy definitely got the better end of build optimizations, especially due to Mind scouting the carriers a bit later, but I don't agree that Mind crazily overreacted and went for a YOLO desperation push. It was a standard +2/+1 timing push which was a bit more saturated with goliaths than normal because 4 carriers were already out by the time he was pushing. You instantly lose if you take that push with primarily tanks/vultures. I also think Mind knew that his normal +2/+1 timing was going to be significantly weaker than a later timing, which is why he pushed out on the south side of the map instead of cutting into the natural as is common with +2/+1 timing pushes. Tactically, Mind played it almost perfectly. Again, Lazy SHOULD have destroyed that army. He definitely had an edge there that he had built up over the course of the game, but the weird counterattack lost the game for him. In fact, looking at the video again Mind definitively overreacted. He treated it as a some kind of all-in carrier build. Because he didn't reinforce that army with more tanks. Which would be normal if he first went out with 10+ tanks, then you only pump liaths, but he had very few tanks to properly fight a 8gates / 3gas toss. If you push out with this build, you primarily reinforce with ALMOST pure goliath (only 1-2 machine shops). In this case, that's exactly what Mind did. He had a smaller number of initial siege tanks because he cut corners early on to get faster upgrades and more economy. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10521 Posts
Let's look at this from Mind's POV. You scan both the main and the nat, see that he only has 2 gates, no robo, no citadel, and a 3rd coming out. This means there are practically speaking, only 3 options as Cryoc has said before: DT, arbiter, or carrier. But with DTs that late in the game, you're probably dropping them into the base with a shuttle, and no robo means pretty low chance of that happening. But just in case, you can get a turret at the other locations. How about arbiters? Well, turrets in those positions are still good, because you're doing to need them to deter recalls and have detection if a recall comes down anyways. But besides that, arbiters take forever to get off the ground and so when he initially scanned, there was no way Lazy was coming in with a recall in that position. So that doesn't really matter. The final option is carriers. Again, looking at a player grabbing a 3rd and only having 2 gates, arbiters doesn't seem likely because of only 2 gates and no robo for obs. And again, the initial turrets aren't bad because it sets up some perimeter for early carriers. We actually saw this happen when Lazy pushed with his 2 initial carriers and tried to attack Mind's natural, but already had a couple of turrets in position (obviously after the fact of the scan, but even just 1 or 2 turrets would have been enough to kind of deter Lazy's carriers). Logically, Mind's build was fine as is. He was never behind or scanned too late that would heavily impact the game in an overly negative way for him. He had plenty of time to prep for arbs, DTs were way too late at that stage of the game, and carriers as we all know take forever to build and interceptors take even longer. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
Of course that doesn't completely decide the outcome of the game, but saying Lazy didn't get an advantage just makes no sense, just because Mind had a very advantageous start by going 14CC into 1Fac 3rd CC and had therefore a relatively easy time to also handle it in the lategame. But if he would have missed the carriers 1 more minute, the outcome could have been very different. And regarding FlashFTW, how is doing a DT drop after a 12 Nexus opening late in the game? I recommend that you play more TvP if you think, a DT drop after Protoss takes his natural is not viable or a bad option. It is very good to delay any pushes or basically win the game if T is unprepared. Especially in this game, if Lazy would have gone for DT drop in his back instead of carriers, he would have been able to freely harrass the main, as Mind skimped on a turret there and only had 1 factory building units. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Next week's matches will be Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday starting at 1900 KST AKA 6:00am EDT. Look forward to seeing you there  | ||
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JiminyDickwhip
2 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 15 2017 10:39 JiminyDickwhip wrote: I feel like after dropping Mind's main base, Rush should've used his foothold there to push up and take out the factories. He got fixated on that top right base and gave Mind the time he needed to settle, rebuild and tech up to BCs. If he scanned the new base and scanned the old base, he'd have seen the opportunity and knew that Mind's three new starports won't do anything if he can't rebuild his mech army. Instead he flew his dropships in circles and left half a dozen tanks in the main without pushing up. It just seemed like the most obvious thing in the world, to me. Did I miss something or did he? I would say he purposely left them there. Mind wouldn't be able to build in that base anymore since they are hard to take out and considering that he was having good engagements, those couple of tanks served a good purpose. Also, keep in mind that Mind had to leave some tanks there to prevent those tanks from taking out the remaining 5 facs and to siege his exp as well. | ||
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On September 15 2017 02:26 Cryoc wrote: What Mind would have done, if he scanned the carriers from the get go can only be speculated, but he wouldn't have build turrets and he would have had the option to go for a strong timing push by cutting scvs and building facs after he saw the stargates. Lazy was lucky because he didn't have to factor in this possibility and Mind had to build turrets to not die vs some kind of drop play which in turn delays any push. Of course that doesn't completely decide the outcome of the game, but saying Lazy didn't get an advantage just makes no sense, just because Mind had a very advantageous start by going 14CC into 1Fac 3rd CC and had therefore a relatively easy time to also handle it in the lategame. But if he would have missed the carriers 1 more minute, the outcome could have been very different. And regarding FlashFTW, how is doing a DT drop after a 12 Nexus opening late in the game? I recommend that you play more TvP if you think, a DT drop after Protoss takes his natural is not viable or a bad option. It is very good to delay any pushes or basically win the game if T is unprepared. Especially in this game, if Lazy would have gone for DT drop in his back instead of carriers, he would have been able to freely harrass the main, as Mind skimped on a turret there and only had 1 factory building units. Yup, FlashFTW, you're a cool caster, but what you are saying makes no sense at all Listen to Cryoc, he is the one making sense in this matter! | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On September 15 2017 19:59 Golgotha wrote: My fking god. that last game with mind vs rush. that was literally the definition of playing on a razor's edge. i really thought rush could have won.....i loved mind's reaction. goddamn i wish there were fpvods of them. Yeah I thought Mind showed a lot of grit in that game. Amazing to watch | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Starecat
941 Posts
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