On September 13 2017 11:52 reincremate wrote: Anyone else notice that the one game on Fighting Spirit is always super highly recomended? Or at least so far for groups A, B and C. Love that map.
quite likely because the players have played so many games on it that they know overall how to approach the matchup while Gold Rush and Crossing Fields are two maps that were just sprung on them last minute, thus, less time to prep and practice.
i just want to see what gold rush was designed for, some sick sair/reaver in PvZ, crazy drops with terran vs zerg on both sides, and my beloved carriers in PvT.
hopefully we'll see an interesting game or two on it before Ro24 is up.
On September 13 2017 11:52 reincremate wrote: Anyone else notice that the one game on Fighting Spirit is always super highly recomended? Or at least so far for groups A, B and C. Love that map.
quite likely because the players have played so many games on it that they know overall how to approach the matchup while Gold Rush and Crossing Fields are two maps that were just sprung on them last minute, thus, less time to prep and practice.
I personally enjoy watching games on those maps and am always excited to see new maps. But having a classic macro map in a major tournament pool is a good way to produce great games, despite the fact that the maps are arguably fundamentally flawed in minor ways or "overplayed".
I would've rather had CB but FS has lead to great games so far so no issues with it. Agree with your post overall.
On September 12 2017 20:26 epi wrote: The map doesn't seem cliffy enough to me for carriers? Maybe it is. Still no Katrina.
its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late.
artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early
but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ?
he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb.
Hi,
I said that Lazy was lucky because the first 2 scans missed the Carrier tech.
I'd appreciate it if the Mods on this site would do their jobs and issue warnings for slander.
Didn't you say that carriers have an upgrade to increase how fast interceptors launch?
Artosis knows nothing about Brood War gg.
Nah jk you're the best commentator. I think the other guy was kidding and just took a jab because he's a small-time commentator and has to get them jabs in. It's the internet; people will be stupid.
Tbf, FlashFTW was just responding to the text above. He couldn't know what the actual context for "lucky" because he wasn't watching Artosis...he was casting the game.
In any case, Lazy was "lucky" that Mind didn't scan the tech directly, but Mind gained all the information he needed to conclude fast carriers. And that map is a terrible arbiter map because you can't split it with a second main. We saw that clearly on Day 1 with the match between Light and Sky. Carriers are the only way you can stall in the center of the map and protect your bases.
(The carrier upgrade for faster interceptor launching is from SC2. I believe it was removed in LotV.)
I was just jabbing back at FlashFTW. I know you guys are a team and I enjoy your commentary too. I appreciate all of the above for their contributions to the community.
That last game was amazing. Mind eked out an advantage by mining the center and was eventually going to win by starving Rush out. Rush's drop on the main was a great play and was the kind of thing Flash would have done to turn the game around (I have seen him beat Mind this way when the map split was bad). Then Rush also dropped the upper right, where Mind was trying to rebuild, and I figured Mind was dead because his tech was in disarray and he was supply capped at about 140 while Rush was at 200 and dropping huge groups of tanks anywhere he wanted, and he'd also taken the center. Then Mind made the patient, correct play of getting to Battlecruisers first and chiseling away at Rush's defenses around the few mineral patches left on the map. This was also the sort of thing Flash would have done (I have seen him beat both Last and Mind this way when the map split was bad). I thought Mind was done for but he pulled it off. Great game. (And can you tell I am a Flash fan and regard him as the ultimate source of TvT know-how?)
On September 13 2017 13:50 Djabanete wrote: That last game was amazing. Mind eked out an advantage by mining the center and was eventually going to win by starving Rush out. Rush's drop on the main was a great play and was the kind of thing Flash would have done to turn the game around (I have seen him beat Mind this way when the map split was bad). Then Rush also dropped the upper right, where Mind was trying to rebuild, and I figured Mind was dead because his tech was in disarray and he was supply capped at about 140 while Rush was at 200 and dropping huge groups of tanks anywhere he wanted, and he'd also taken the center. Then Mind made the patient, correct play of getting to Battlecruisers first and chiseling away at Rush's defenses around the few mineral patches left on the map. This was also the sort of thing Flash would have done (I have seen him beat both Last and Mind this way when the map split was bad). I thought Mind was done for but he pulled it off. Great game. (And can you tell I am a Flash fan and regard him as the ultimate source of TvT know-how?)
so basically, play like FlaSh and win the game? seems like a legitimate strategy.
The last game really shows the difference in experience between a veteran pro-gamer and a high-level amateur. Rush lost so many fucking units dropping in front of siege tank. He was never able to use his mid-game advantage to utterly cripple Mind's economy. If he had killed either the 1 o' clock or the 2 o' clock base, he would have won. A lot of his engagements were inefficient and generally did not serve a large purpose.
That said, he has grown A LOT since the last ASL. I hope he gets even stronger before the next ASL.
On September 13 2017 14:45 usopsama wrote: The last game really shows the difference in experience between a veteran pro-gamer and a high-level amateur. Rush lost so many fucking units dropping in front of siege tank. He was never able to use his mid-game advantage to utterly cripple Mind's economy. If he had killed either the 1 o' clock or the 2 o' clock base, he would have won. A lot of his engagements were inefficient and generally did not serve a large purpose.
That said, he has grown A LOT since the last ASL. I hope he gets even stronger before the next ASL.
Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say.
On September 13 2017 14:45 usopsama wrote: The last game really shows the difference in experience between a veteran pro-gamer and a high-level amateur. Rush lost so many fucking units dropping in front of siege tank. He was never able to use his mid-game advantage to utterly cripple Mind's economy. If he had killed either the 1 o' clock or the 2 o' clock base, he would have won. A lot of his engagements were inefficient and generally did not serve a large purpose.
That said, he has grown A LOT since the last ASL. I hope he gets even stronger before the next ASL.
Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say.
You are right. My mistake.
For some reason, I thought he was an amateur that got really good completely from laddering. Maybe I am thinking of someone else.
On September 13 2017 14:45 usopsama wrote: The last game really shows the difference in experience between a veteran pro-gamer and a high-level amateur. Rush lost so many fucking units dropping in front of siege tank. He was never able to use his mid-game advantage to utterly cripple Mind's economy. If he had killed either the 1 o' clock or the 2 o' clock base, he would have won. A lot of his engagements were inefficient and generally did not serve a large purpose.
That said, he has grown A LOT since the last ASL. I hope he gets even stronger before the next ASL.
Rush isn't an amateur. He was an ex-pro though that doesn't change what you were trying to say.
You are right. My mistake.
For some reason, I thought he was an amateur that got really good completely from laddering. Maybe I am thinking of someone else.
On September 13 2017 19:06 mishimaBeef wrote: How do you hide carrier better than that for terran not to conclude you've gone fast carriers?
I seen a game where P was hiding them in another main vs Flash on CB. Flash was scanning around and didn't find anything and being Flash he runs a vulture to that main and finds the carriers.
Generally you want to keep them in your bases but I think hiding them somewhere else could be a good idea.
On September 12 2017 20:26 epi wrote: The map doesn't seem cliffy enough to me for carriers? Maybe it is. Still no Katrina.
its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late.
artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early
but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ?
he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb.
I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back.
On September 12 2017 20:26 epi wrote: The map doesn't seem cliffy enough to me for carriers? Maybe it is. Still no Katrina.
its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late.
artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early
but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ?
he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb.
I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back.
Ouch.
Btw I have no idea about protoss BOs and timings and stuff, but isn't it kind of an expensive bait teching all the way to carriers on two base just to force the Terran to goliaths and then somehow expand twice behind 4 carriers and 2 base ground, and I'm assuming slow zealots? Isn't a 3 base 2/1 push going to wreck that?
Оkay then, I got busted for being a total noob. These builds are obviously very, very refined.
EDIT: But then again, isn't that exactly what happened next? He got pushed and he lost a ton of economy when he decided not to save his 4th at the bottom for some reason - and 2/1 kicked in right afterwards, I think. During the initial push Mind was still 1/0. I didn't see the upgrades for a bit and then, right after the Protoss army went to the ~1 o'clock, Terran was already 2/1.
During the push he coulda had 16 more zealots easily when they fought around 6 o clock. Like looking at what the carriers #5+ did they played into the terran hands, while after the first 4, terran already invested in turrets and goliaths, I don't know if he was scanning the stargates to see if they were still producing.
On September 12 2017 20:26 epi wrote: The map doesn't seem cliffy enough to me for carriers? Maybe it is. Still no Katrina.
its kinda like hearth break ridge, and that was a good carrier map. but mind dictated the pace since he saw the carriers so early. lazy needed to take better engagements over cliffs and snipe more units but since he didnt do any of that he let the tank and goliath count grow until it was too late.
artosis even said he got lucky with the scans... i don't tthink mind saw them so early
but i was thinking what if he just made 4 then switch to ground on 4 base ?
he wasnt lucky. he scanned the main and forward nat before and didnt see any kind of tech. he knew something was up. thats not luck lol artosis is so dumb.
I don't really like either English cast too much, but in this particular case, Artosis was 100% correct. Your comment by contrast just shows that you don't really play BW, at least not Terran. Just because you can see the carriers because you are an observer, doesn't mean Terran can assume carriers by seeing the number of gates. Blind countering a possible fast carrier build is a good way to lose as Terran. P could have also hidden fast arbiters or a DT drop in the back.
Cryoc, I don't understand what you're responding to. The part of your post that I bolded seems like a non sequitur to the bolded part of the post you responded to. If someone scans the front yard natural, the main, and the backyard natural, how is that the same as blind countering a possible fast carrier build? It's the opposite of blind countering. Are you trying to say that Mind was in danger of wasting scans if the tech path was one that required scans for defense?
Watched Flashs vod for all the games. I'll take his word as word of God (HAHAHA)
Regrding the losers match, Flash was saying Lazys build was very good and that the carrier timing was really well planned out. He messed up because he should have engaged when Mind was going for the push on the 4th instead of going for a counterattack on an empty base. If he takes that engagement, he wins. He misplayed, let the base die and let Mind take control.
Last game he was calling that Mind should be teching to BCs and was super happy when he did and was like "I told you guys!" When he did. His commentary is super informative. I love JD but hes a bit less informed on non zerg matchups and has a tendency to prematurely call "he's won" or "he's lost" very often.
On September 13 2017 22:06 mishimaBeef wrote: During the push he coulda had 16 more zealots easily when they fought around 6 o clock. Like looking at what the carriers #5+ did they played into the terran hands, while after the first 4, terran already invested in turrets and goliaths, I don't know if he was scanning the stargates to see if they were still producing.
Are you suggesting he just stop going for carriers? He's invested far more in the carriers than minds invested in stopping them. There is almost never a scenario where switching away from carriers after you've gone for them is good. You say 16 more zealots but that would imply he had the gateway count to support that production. He didnt and he certainly didnt have time to add them. The problem was that he didn't fight with the carriers, not that he didn't switch off of them.
EPT
