oh yes. i actually dont know who to root for, or what games i want to see. part of me wants flash 3-0 shine complete destruction. other part of me wants shine 3-0 flash, like julyzerg vs best. hm.... lets just have some nice games. i hope for no (map) balance whine....
Hoping for a nice 3:2, with flash winning of course. Shine has a real shot on outsider and andromeda, but 2xCB definitely favors flash. We fully expect shine to make flash work for his win.
I've been watching his stream now and then, and I just can't see Flash losing a Bo5 to anyone at this moment in his career -_-... he's been destroying Zergs left and right.
Really looking forward to seeing Shine trying to switch it up, and I'd be happy if he could take a game or two, not to mention win, as impossible as it sounds
But I'd be happy if we simply get an amazing game or two between these fantastic players.
On June 04 2017 17:17 wfhbright wrote: My account is still alive after all these years (haven't been here for... 6 years?)! Good to see some good Brood War again :D
Shines wife left him during the playoffs. He has everything on the line with this matchup. I dont think he can pull off the win but man if he does holy crap lol.
Super boring 3-0 incoming. Dissapointing as there are probably a lot of people watching this who normally dont watch broodwar. Will see flash 3-0 Shine and think broodwar is shit. Sigh.
On June 04 2017 17:49 YASHSHAKAR wrote: Shines wife left him during the playoffs. He has everything on the line with this matchup. I dont think he can pull off the win but man if he does holy crap lol.
On June 04 2017 17:49 YASHSHAKAR wrote: Shines wife left him during the playoffs. He has everything on the line with this matchup. I dont think he can pull off the win but man if he does holy crap lol.
Flash 3:1
Wat. Is this actually true?
He said he was separated from his sons recently, so I'd take that to mean that she left.
On June 04 2017 18:39 NarutO wrote: Does anyone actually think shine has a shot? :X
not a legitmate shot, but i figured he make be able to catch players off guard. but with a player as efficient as flash, and with his game sense, its not going to be enough.
its going to be so hard for shine when flash knows he can give up some map pressure to do those extra scouts around the map. flash is going to smash shine in a straight up game so hes forced into this bag of builds.
The solo mutas and no third in conventional spot gave it away I think. There just weren't enough lings, nor enough mutas for Shine to have being on that kind of economy. It was suspicious, and Flash just went from base to base to base in process of elimination. And he probably suspected, being the kind of player Shine's shown to be, that it'd be some kind of lurker drop attack. So Flash basically read him like a book.
I wanted to see Shine get speed maybe then try to do something, especially vs. Flash you need to be faster than light. One bag of builds down, another to go. Go ensnare on m&ms.
On June 04 2017 18:47 PVJ wrote: JD 15 thousand viewers, Terror 35 thousand Afreeca Korea another 25 thousand, English hovering 10 thousand. Crazy!
Tangent from BW: The entire Afreeca system of running their own leagues and then encouraging their signed streamers to cast them makes me wonder how that would work in the west w/ Twitch.
On June 04 2017 18:47 PVJ wrote: JD 15 thousand viewers, Terror 35 thousand Afreeca Korea another 25 thousand, English hovering 10 thousand. Crazy!
Tangent from BW: The entire Afreeca system of running their own leagues and then encouraging their signed streamers to cast them makes me wonder how that would work in the west w/ Twitch.
Twitch has bits, which are basically balloons. I guess they can use that to their advantage for more popular streamers.
Dang Flash saw the moment of weakness and just pounced. A few moments later and there are lurkers under dark swarm and that doesn't work, but shine just didn't have enough in position to hold that
On June 04 2017 19:04 HKTPZ wrote: Shine really proving himself today as a legitimate and worthy competitor
If only he was mechanically on par with Larva/Effort/SK
Thats the scary thing. Shine got all the way to a final despite being so awful only thanks to abusing Fog of War.
thats not being awful. thats called playing to your strengths. if your opponents suck vs fog of war abuse then they dont deserve to make it to the finals. they played Shine's game which is why they lost. FlaSh is making him play to his game which is why hes getting crushed right now.
This game wasn't anything like Flash showed on stream when he played TvZ on Camelot lol. Dual Starport, no mech, no third, then he attacks just at the right time Consume finishes. wtf!
If Shine's standard game was just a bit more threatening he would be so much more scarier. As it is, you know he's going to do something cheesy, so you just have to play it safe.
On June 04 2017 19:15 VioleTAK wrote: Shine's dream is to give the trophy to his grandma... flash could give him the trophy to give to her. Com'on Flash be a gentlegod.
On June 04 2017 19:15 VioleTAK wrote: Shine's dream is to give the trophy to his grandma... flash could give him the trophy to give to her. Com'on Flash be a gentlegod.
I'd compare Flash to chess champions Gary Kasparov and Magnus Carlsen. Combining a mind that is able to process and overcome the difficult mechanics of Brood War with immaculate preparation and practice habits, this is what you get.
On June 04 2017 18:45 Waxangel wrote: dunno, am I the only one who thinks that's just a bad strategy, regardless of opponent ?
and yes, I realize that if Shine brought it out here, it must have worked a reasonable % of the time in practice
I think it's a great strategic opening for a ling heavy mid game. It got him a fast 3rd, sort of uncontested, it made Flash waste 2 scans that still kept him in the dark, and Shine got to kill a free group of mm because of the massive high ground advantage. I think that would be reasonable trade for taking a later 3rd gas, but earlier 4th. Not something Shine opted to do, and I don't play Zerg, but I personally really like the idea of that opening.
It's map specific, but it might give you enough time rush to hive tech without giving up all map control, so more units and better eco (instead of sunkens) behind your hive tech. Just theory-crafting here, so feel free to debunk my thoughts if I'm way off.
Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
So Shine is garbage?
He's good but not in standard games which is how he got this far. When it comes to standard macro zerg play he is wayy behind those mentioned earlier.
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
So Shine is garbage?
He's cheesy and unorthodox. He's not gonna beat Flash mechanically if his unorthodox build doesn't work out. Flash can beat him by endlessly throwing units at him and harassing all over the map like he just did.
On June 04 2017 19:40 CDRdude wrote: Those vessels were uncontested for a really long time, did shine not have the gas to squeeze in a few scourge earlier?
He stayed on 2 gas for a very long time. And spent gas on Mutas+Lurkers+Carapace upgrade
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
So Shine is garbage?
OSL/ASL format has always allowed for unexpected runs, even CHAMPIONSHIP runs (Casy, etc).
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Vs Effort/SK/JD/Larva Flash would have been behind but not vs Shine
So Shine is garbage?
OSL/ASL format has always allowed for unexpected runs, even CHAMPIONSHIP runs (Casy, etc).
pls. Casy is one of the all time greats the only thing holding him back was his tvp. Otherwise we would still hail him as the Neo Emperor
Imagine if the order of Movie's career was reversed, where he is mediocre/disapppointing for a few years FIRST, and then randomly makes a finals run before getting smashed by Flash. That's sorta what Shine is (obv not a perfect analogy). Makes you think about how context makes you look differently at the same result.
On June 04 2017 19:45 Waxangel wrote: Imagine if the order of Movie's career was reversed, where he is mediocre/disapppointing for a few years FIRST, and then randomly makes a finals run before getting smashed by Flash. That's sorta what Shine is (obv not a perfect analogy). Makes you think about how context makes you look differently at the same result.
I don't think I've seen a finals run by a player as gimmicky as Shine. Movie sure wasn't when he suddenly got good only to fall apart.
On June 04 2017 19:39 Epithet wrote: I wonder if Bisu vs Flash would have not been a stomp. Flash looks unbeatable in a best of 5
No, Bisu always put a good fight against Flash, 3:2 or 3:1 for Flash with games being competitive. Unfortunately, Bisu got sick vs Shine, he probably also choked, not sure about that though, more likely it was due to his sickness and we had to have noncompetitive final
On June 04 2017 19:45 Waxangel wrote: Imagine if the order of Movie's career was reversed, where he is mediocre/disapppointing for a few years FIRST, and then randomly makes a finals run before getting smashed by Flash. That's sorta what Shine is (obv not a perfect analogy). Makes you think about how context makes you look differently at the same result.
His run was completely different. He had actually skill and was exceeding at hard matchup (pvz), where the likes of Bisu and other dragoons were losing. Also his games vs Flash in finals were quite close and he managed to take one win, without cheesing.
So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
Last if he doesn't get read by a book. EffOrt when he returns back to old form. BeSt as well. Those are my top 3 picks. SoulKey only got close because of a stupid 4 pool BO win.
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
BeSt. BeSt only loses to himself never to his opponent. If BeSt is in the mood no chance for Flash. Flash is not even close to the one tru god
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
I'd say Larva is as likely as Soulkey, unless he keeps not doing well in offline competitions.
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
Last, when Flash isn't in revenge mode.
When Flash is in revenge mode, then no one can win.
Best's PvZ has always been weak, but his PvT is monstrous, particularly in the late game. Easily the best late-game PvT in the world. Probably best PvT overall as well. I really wish Stork would step his game up and get back to his peak level.
Worst finals ever? Even if it was 3-0 I was expecting some macro games. What happened to Shine's "10 year reserved just for Flash" builds, only 1st game he did some trick after he fell apart. Bisu must be feeling satisfied right now although even sSak almost beat him so he could go out 0-3 too.
On June 04 2017 20:07 azrael1965 wrote: Why isn't Flash in the SSL?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the tournament is below a player of his caliber and this format "Qualification Fans vote eight players into the tournament"
On June 04 2017 20:07 azrael1965 wrote: Why isn't Flash in the SSL?
Officially? Because the top players didn't agree with the voting system. Inofficially (read: the reasons they gave at first) because they didn't want to/were exhausted/felt it took to much time up(streaming is the real money)
On June 04 2017 20:07 azrael1965 wrote: Why isn't Flash in the SSL?
Officially? Because the top players didn't agree with the voting system. Inofficially (read: the reasons they gave at first) because they didn't want to/were exhausted/felt it took to much time up(streaming is the real money)
Most Games are just Best of One. The Elimination Stage is Best of 3 and the price pool isn't that bad. 8600$ for the winner 4300$ for second place and there is even money for the regular season games. Effort got 2K by winning 6 Best of One games.
On June 04 2017 20:07 azrael1965 wrote: Why isn't Flash in the SSL?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the tournament is below a player of his caliber and this format "Qualification Fans vote eight players into the tournament"
No I'm pretty sure it has to do with Afreeca stepping in and telling players like Bisu and Flash to exclusively compete in their league, Afreeca doesn't want competition.
On June 04 2017 20:07 azrael1965 wrote: Why isn't Flash in the SSL?
Officially? Because the top players didn't agree with the voting system. Inofficially (read: the reasons they gave at first) because they didn't want to/were exhausted/felt it took to much time up(streaming is the real money)
Most of those players are sponsored and supported by Afreeca, I think it has more to do with Afreeca having a monopoly over the new BW scene.
Flash prepared well. His aggressive plays disrupted Shine's 'bag of builds', and forced the game into a semi-chaotic state where his greater mechanical skill would prevail.
Flash would've won anyway if he played more standard and solid. That it turned out into an utter domination is testament of his strategic superiority as well.
On June 04 2017 20:22 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Flash can't be beat, good luck JD and Bisu fanboys, tried so hard to believe something new could work vs old fashioned godly mechanics, I guess not
This is Flashs era. But eventually he will be dethroned as well. It's like in Go or Chess where a champion can rule for years and just proves that broodwar has a much higher ceiling then starcraft 2. But somehow I have the feeling that Flash will be Bonjwa with the longest reign.
Yo to the guys I ran into (300s ticket numbers), PM me and say hi. Sorry for being weird about it, between jet lag and dayquil I'm barely coherent tonight.
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
On June 04 2017 20:22 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Flash can't be beat, good luck JD and Bisu fanboys, tried so hard to believe something new could work vs old fashioned godly mechanics, I guess not
JD was actually the only zerg capable of holding Flash relentless pushes and is actually the one who once bested him in pure macro games. But right now probably not, it is true.
On June 04 2017 19:55 RowdierBob wrote: So who of the current crop is good enough to take out Flash in a bo5? I feel maybe Best or Soulkey. Anyone else? And please don't throw Bisu or Last at me.
Snow, Effort, Movie, JD, Best, maybe Larva, maybe Jangbi, maybe Free, maybe Stork, maybe Horang2, Soulkey, Last and Bisu. Even though Last lost in a Bo5, imo he's the second best player right now. He's just so strong.
In online matches Flash struggles a lot against Best and Effort. The problem is some of these players like Snow, Stork, and Movie couldn't get past the Ro24 they just choke.
How about Shuttle? He's underperforming lately but his PvT was godly at Season 1 which led him defeating top tier terrans and become a champion. I think he needs to start playing seriously again, his cross carrier build is actually pretty strong.
Sad that not many people giving SK due credit for taking Flash to the limit. Sure, G2 was a 4-pool auto-win, but the games were fairly tight decided by small margins (especially G3 with Flash's dropship micro confounding SK's scourges).
SK will go deep in ASL4 and be a top contender. Surely Top 3 Zerg right now.
Watching Flash play that series was pretty fun. So many small little things he does better than everyone else. I appreciate being able to observe this beautiful mind at work. But the difference in skill was so huge, I think there is not much to analyse.
I hope a zerg player finally comes up with something better than just rushing to Defilers. It is neither fun to watch not very succesful these days.
And I hope that the level of play increases. As much as I enjoy watching the games these days, the difference to the classic era is very visible.
On June 04 2017 20:22 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Flash can't be beat, good luck JD and Bisu fanboys, tried so hard to believe something new could work vs old fashioned godly mechanics, I guess not
JD was actually the only zerg capable of holding Flash relentless pushes and is actually the one who once bested him in pure macro games. But right now probably not, it is true.
Flash loses more often to Effort nowadays. Effort's style of play troubles Flash. JD will now be in the brutal preliminaries of the ASL, there is a high chance he doesn't even make it to the Ro24.
Woke up an hour late, forgot they moved the time back. Anyways, my own thoughts. I think Shine did pretty decently tbh.
Game 1 was weird so let's forget that one lol. Game 2 was pretty nice I feel. The bunker vs lings in his base, Shine holding on and grabbing a third etc... I think people give credit to Flash already but let's face it, how many terrans have we seen recently or anytime in the last year go for an "exp bust" using dropships to snipe the defiler? It's unexpected and that's why it worked. Shine expected a drop in his main or third and defended for that, was caught offguard but that's a testament to Flash's skills and experience imo. I think he could've easily caught any other zerg offguard with that frontal drop as well. Was pretty cool to see but sad as a Shine fan going into this. Game 3 was decent enough as well. Shine's mutalisk micro is one of the best atm compared to say SK who was frankly terrible at using them in the semis vs Flash (except in game 5 oddly enough). I think Shine should've pushed once he broke the bunkers. He had another control group of units at his natural and Flash had only a handful of marines. Yes, it's risky but considering that Flash's macro is off the charts and his late game is solid, Shine would've had no chance if Flash kept the wheels turning so I feel like it was his best shot. He should've rallied everything outside Flash's natural then pushed in. Debatable if it's worth it but I feel like it could've been (he could've grabbed the fourth behind it too).
On June 04 2017 20:57 Peeano wrote: Bisu would definitely be a top contender to take a bo5 off of Flash.
Even against ssak, Bisu was vulnerable and PvT has always been Bisu's weakest match-up, so I think Flash would stomp Bisu in a bo5. I think right now only Best's godlike PvT can take on Flash. Even then Flash is the clear favourite.
Wellp i had more faith in Shine, but Flash is too solid.
Shine had real chance of success in g1 if he had killed the 3rd scouting scv and in g3 he overcomited with the attack on flash natural after killing his army numerous times, he shouldve just played calm and defensive starvation game and shut down every flash attack until gg. I guess its not the Shines temper to play calmer game. In general Shines style is much more suitable to zvp matchup, since toss can defend way harder than terran. No effective range units, slow army units, no 60 hp workers, no bunkers, no scans, no good ground to air units before templar tech, its just so easy for zerg surprises to work on Protoss by design and hard against terran. I felt like Soulkey style is the real answer against Flash and with some refinement he can destroy Flash for sure.
And yeah, next season its time for Jangbanging! It will be awesome.
I love Flash, but putting him on an unbeaten mode it's wrong after an SSL he faced zergs, and most of them a level below the median of players. There are a lot of Protoss that could have made him a run for the money.
Hopefully this will lead to bringing up the point of bringing back maps with a safe third gas, or with smaller buildable/walkable paths behind mineral lines, but we all know it won't.
On June 05 2017 00:39 Lazare1969 wrote: >check afreeca youtube channel to watch the series >video thumbnail has Flash holding a trophy with his ASL jacket on
Well at least that saved me two hours.
LMAO. Earlier this season they used to use the same non-spoiling thumbnail for all the matches which was very nice for this reason. Strange that they changed it again.
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Once terran is pinned to base in that position, it is very easy for zerg to effortlessly get a 3rd gas, sometimes a 4th expo, and can bring out an army of ultralisks before terran can make an effective mech switch. Pretty much the only two choices that terran has in that situation is double expand into a mech switch, or if going the SK terran aggressive route, dropship play. The latter is what flash did and has practiced alot on stream. A zerg that far ahead only needs to be vigilant with scourge play, which Shine did not have for some unknown reason before damage was done. It became so hard to deal with that SHine just doesn't have the mechanical ability to control multiple defilers at once, whilst looking out for erasers. There are very few zergs that could cope with that situation effectively, many of whom are not in peak condition. A similar recent game to this, is Soulkey vs flash on Andromeda in the semifinals, though only holding back flash from doing any damage, but the planis quite similar, in the event terran doesnt give zerg a hard time getting 3rd gas.
Even if the mech swtich holds off the first few salvos of the zerg ultralisks, there is a lot of time for zerg to also build up queen fleet to land the final blow on terran's double expansions thus ending the game.
On June 05 2017 00:43 Cryoc wrote: LMAO. Earlier this season they used to use the same non-spoiling thumbnail for all the matches which was very nice for this reason. Strange that they changed it again.
I think that the automated thumbnail when the stream ended is manually changed afterwards and then it takes a while to update through the system. So if you check to soon the thumbnail can still be a spoiler, but it gets changed eventually. That is how it works on youtube anyway.
On June 05 2017 01:06 Barneyk wrote: If you would recommend 1 series of games from this season of ASL to a new, casual viewer, what series would you recommend?
On June 04 2017 23:15 r33k wrote: Hopefully this will lead to bringing up the point of bringing back maps with a safe third gas, or with smaller buildable/walkable paths behind mineral lines, but we all know it won't.
I don't know if it's possible to make a safer third gas. I mean, what would that entail? These gas bases already have only 1 small ramp. The mineral line change I'd agree with.
On June 04 2017 19:38 EatingBomber wrote: Forgive me, but was Flash really that far behind as Tastosis were making out? I saw he lost a lot of marines when he moved out the first ~3 times, but he didnt seem to be affected...
Once terran is pinned to base in that position, it is very easy for zerg to effortlessly get a 3rd gas, sometimes a 4th expo, and can bring out an army of ultralisks before terran can make an effective mech switch. Pretty much the only two choices that terran has in that situation is double expand into a mech switch, or if going the SK terran aggressive route, dropship play. The latter is what flash did and has practiced alot on stream. A zerg that far ahead only needs to be vigilant with scourge play, which Shine did not have for some unknown reason before damage was done. It became so hard to deal with that SHine just doesn't have the mechanical ability to control multiple defilers at once, whilst looking out for erasers. There are very few zergs that could cope with that situation effectively, many of whom are not in peak condition. A similar recent game to this, is Soulkey vs flash on Andromeda in the semifinals, though only holding back flash from doing any damage, but the planis quite similar, in the event terran doesnt give zerg a hard time getting 3rd gas.
Even if the mech swtich holds off the first few salvos of the zerg ultralisks, there is a lot of time for zerg to also build up queen fleet to land the final blow on terran's double expansions thus ending the game.
I mean, the problem is that Flash is behind if the expansions stay up and if it's easy for the zerg to take them. But Flash is literally so good at taking down the gas bases with stuff like dropship play and aggression. I don't think you can really say he's behind in situations like that. Most of his wins against Zerg come from the midgame right before the Zerg's gas bases kick in, where Flash goes for the timing push.
On June 05 2017 01:06 Barneyk wrote: If you would recommend 1 series of games from this season of ASL to a new, casual viewer, what series would you recommend?
The way Flash suddenly ramped up pressure in game 3 was awesome to behold. Shine didn't really have a chance versus Flash without some kind of trick but after game 1 he was never allowed to settle in and play the way he wanted.
On June 05 2017 01:06 Barneyk wrote: If you would recommend 1 series of games from this season of ASL to a new, casual viewer, what series would you recommend?
Bisu vs sSak for sure.
The results of this final was less than surprising and this was the real reason to be sad about Shine beating Bisu.
Well that series went as I expected. Unfortunate that Shine couldn't put up a better fight or somehow pull up the win, he was a fun player to watch this season.
Flash is just too good. But I was expected that Shine will be able to snatch one game using some tricky build from his "bag of builds." I guess not against Flash.
Btw, that was probably one of the shortest finals ever. Feels shorter than Flash vs Stork, though probably not as short as Jeadong vs Yellow. But that was ZvZ which tend to be the shortest match-up.
After having watched the whole series I have to say that I am a bit disappointed how easily Flash rolled over Shine. I thought it will be closer than it was. Flash made it look so easy that you have to winder how the hell other guys could have lost to Shine...
The series only proved how light years ahead FlaSh (and "his" Terran mechanics) is above the competition. Early to early-mid game is where Shine usually "shines", whereas in this case his flame never really got lit for the most part and any dream of a competitive game were blown away asap. I should've realized that FlaSh vs Zerg is exactly that, a Terran about to roll an anxious Zerg desperately trying to last to a third. Props to Shine for making the ASL a ton more exciting than it really should've, and to FlaSh for once again proving that gambits at the very highest levels can only get you so far, which is why it risky builds are what they are
For me Protoss or LaSt will be the only chance FlaSh gets bumped off the road to the finals, but the first Zerg who can get out of this defiler trap which FlaSh has convincingly shat on for hundreds of games could potentially be the next big name. The only player I see doing that would be Soulkey, he's kind of a mix between top Zerg macro and mechanics with a little Shine shennanigans dashed on top. :D He's really the only ray of light for Zerg against FlaSh imo
On June 05 2017 08:49 Plume wrote: damn game1 was so good, really shows how strong both players are imo
Game 1 was good, but to me it really showed how dependent Shine is on cheesy builds and tactics when playing someone as mechanically good as Flash or Bisu.
Game 1 was not good at all. Shine's strategy was either horribly planned or VERY poorly executed.
If you hide a third base, you're going to make your opponent a) suspicious and b) defensive. To then go and do a very very slow, very very late lurker drop from that third base is suicidal! You've already made your opponent think something is up! And you let him think that for a solid 60-90 seconds before you even did anything with it! I firmly believe Shine missed something in his build. Also, he kept pulling Flash's army -toward- the place he was going to drop. What happens if Flash just... leaves a marine there. GG? I think Shine's build would have worked much much better if he had cut some production to drop a 'real' fake hatchery at the bottom left, something to pull flash's army out of his base and make him think Shine was just doing some different timings or something, anything to stop Flash from sitting in his base with all the suspicion in the world.
This is just one chobo's opinion, though. I'm pretty sure even I would have known my opponent was going to drop the main.
Shine would have won game 1 if it was a random game on Fish/Bnet. The problem with it is Flash knew he was going against a player who was too good to have a massive amount of resources go to waste. If he thought his opponent was just bad and/or fooling around then he probably would have been out of position and gotten wrecked by the lurker drop.
You can't really beat Flash through early-mid game ZvT strats that aim to finish the game within the first 10 mins, which is the only thing Shine's good at. He's actually strongest around this time. So... your only good strat plays into your opponent's biggest strength? That's not exactly a recipe for success. Most of the time ZvFlash has to be won late game, lead by complex mindgames.
a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
On June 05 2017 11:00 GTR wrote: a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
Won't irradiate deal splash damage to all lurkers burrowing in the same spot?
On June 05 2017 11:00 GTR wrote: a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
On June 05 2017 11:00 GTR wrote: a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
I really like the move to put lings behind his high ground minerals so scan+marines would hit the lings over drones on the Andromeda in main mineral only expansion.
On June 05 2017 11:00 GTR wrote: a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
I really like the move to put lings behind his high ground minerals so scan+marines would hit the lings over drones on the Andromeda in main mineral only expansion.
Also the drone on top of double lurkers was pretty good, in game 2. I'm actually a little confused as to how Flash killed those lurkers so easily while he busted through for the win --- wasn't the drone killed after the two lurkers? I guess maybe attack-move was all he needed because the lurkers were the first military targets in range as the marines went in? OK, answered my own question
On June 05 2017 09:21 ldv wrote: Game 1 was not good at all. Shine's strategy was either horribly planned or VERY poorly executed.
If you hide a third base, you're going to make your opponent a) suspicious and b) defensive. To then go and do a very very slow, very very late lurker drop from that third base is suicidal! You've already made your opponent think something is up! And you let him think that for a solid 60-90 seconds before you even did anything with it! I firmly believe Shine missed something in his build. Also, he kept pulling Flash's army -toward- the place he was going to drop. What happens if Flash just... leaves a marine there. GG? I think Shine's build would have worked much much better if he had cut some production to drop a 'real' fake hatchery at the bottom left, something to pull flash's army out of his base and make him think Shine was just doing some different timings or something, anything to stop Flash from sitting in his base with all the suspicion in the world.
This is just one chobo's opinion, though. I'm pretty sure even I would have known my opponent was going to drop the main.
Maybe some deep metagaming going on? LIke to make Flash think "that's so stupid, there's no way he'd do *that*, it must be something else..." As it is, yeah, it just looked completely hopeless.
I think the biggest issue was that Shine didn't have the mechanics / late game to back his bag of builds. Especially tough when your opponents knows you have a bag of builds.
PvZ is a bit different, but with TvZ, terran can just turtle up and nothing a zerg does will break it. See game 1, flash made a bunker at home. gg. Game 2, turtle until push, gg.
Game 3 was just straight up sick macro and multitask by Flash, I think any zerg would struggle against that, but Shine definitely overextend by breaking those double (!!) bunkers at entrance or mess up his macro right after, because flash had so much more units afterwards for those drops, but I think Shine had less lings than marines when Flash started dropping. Let's also not forget that was after his first dropship got caught by scourges.
Anyone else think Shine missed an opportunity at 1:49:30 here?:
If you look at the minimap, Shine never rallied his hatches to Flash's main. While he's attacking, his units are just rallying to his own natural and sitting there.
When Jaedong wins a fight in the center and gets this kind of traction attacking into a Terran's natural, he instantly rallies every hatch to the opponent's main and keeps applying pressure until he either kills them or the attack starts losing traction.
I think if you gave Shine's seat to Jaedong after the fight linked above, JD probably would have killed Flash by forcing a liftoff of the Terran nat and eventually winning the game.
I'd like to point out all of shines "cool moves" in this series were simply to avoid (full) damage from a relentless flash army. That's not going to win you any games. A sign of desperation. Disappointed shine couldnt put up a better fight but not surprised at all. I don't blame him but Flash showed who the real champion was very clearly.
On June 05 2017 20:35 CoL_DarkstaR wrote: Disappointed by the finals, especially Shine throwing a perfectly even game #3. A crowd turnout like this deserves a much better finals.
On June 05 2017 11:00 GTR wrote: a lot of impressive things to take from shine though - i've never seen the lurker stack with the overlord on top to mitigate the potential irradiate losses ever before, hopefully more zergs start to do this, although seems to be just a situationally unique thing to do (not worth against tanks).
You do this if you are hopelessly behind
i dunno seems like a pretty legit trick for defending bases behind or not
Shine actually played this finals well, but Flash was just untouchable, perfect macro and game plan (powering from two bases to not give a chance to Shine's trickery and then attacking with a super strong army/drops). If he brings his top game, not even Bisu or Jaedong have a chance of winning a Bo5 against him.
On June 05 2017 19:02 Xeln4g4 wrote: worst one sided final ever ...
The game was a masterclass of how to play TvZ. It wasn't the worst finals ever, there's been some terrible ones.
I think that simply people had too high expectations. Many, including me, expected closer game. But Flash simply dominated.
We really need Bisu, Stork, Jaedong, Fantasy or Jangbi back at their top form to have Flash break a sweat. But right now it is hard for me to see anybody who can take Flash in Bo5.
On June 05 2017 15:26 sOuLthieF wrote: I think the biggest issue was that Shine didn't have the mechanics / late game to back his bag of builds. Especially tough when your opponents knows you have a bag of builds.
PvZ is a bit different, but with TvZ, terran can just turtle up and nothing a zerg does will break it. See game 1, flash made a bunker at home. gg. Game 2, turtle until push, gg.
Game 3 was just straight up sick macro and multitask by Flash, I think any zerg would struggle against that, but Shine definitely overextend by breaking those double (!!) bunkers at entrance or mess up his macro right after, because flash had so much more units afterwards for those drops, but I think Shine had less lings than marines when Flash started dropping. Let's also not forget that was after his first dropship got caught by scourges.
Agree. Its just how the match up works early game, terran cannot be touched, unlike protoss, where zerg can make toss his pet from the early to late game. Lings are bad vs marines when they are placed good, terran can get firebats in no time, Scvs have 60 hp... even hydra busts are holded with scvs, it takes 12 shots to kill 1 scv. Shine going for base trade with lings against scvs was a laughable situation.
Soulkey's methods are a different thing tho. If he refines his play he can definitely bring flash down 3-1 imo. He compose the game beautifully as time progresses leading to bigger and bigger advantage, there is alot of potential in that dude. I remember him doing the best performance of any zergs in the whole proleague season back in the day when Flash was killing every zerg super fast and easy, Soulkey impressed everyone.
If you look at the minimap, Shine never rallied his hatches to Flash's main. While he's attacking, his units are just rallying to his own natural and sitting there.
When Jaedong wins a fight in the center and gets this kind of traction attacking into a Terran's natural, he instantly rallies every hatch to the opponent's main and keeps applying pressure until he either kills them or the attack starts losing traction.
I think if you gave Shine's seat to Jaedong after the fight linked above, JD probably would have killed Flash by forcing a liftoff of the Terran nat and eventually winning the game.
I want to say yes, mostly because I feel like Flash was down to single digit count of his marines, no tanks and only the 1-2 vessels out. If Shine rallied, he could've caused a lift and Flash would've retreated giving Shine the opportunity to drone at his fourth and secure it. Having said that, we know this info, Shine doesn't so he played it safe after breaking down those bunkers which is reasonable.
This Final really killed me. I was hoping for a storybook ending where hopes and dreams were possible and could be achieved. That's what I really needed. Instead this is still the time of cold hard reality. And that's what Flash is.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Zero just went to military in May and Hydra got married and I think quit SCII. Not sure what he is doing now.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Zero just went to military in May and Hydra got married and I think quit SCII. Not sure what he is doing now.
Thanks, good to know. But that's too bad. Zero was a great Zerg player and he could give Flash a good run for his money.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Sorry, are you referring to the OSL finals with the crazy comeback? You seem like you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. But I was actually talking about a set they had on stream just a couple of days ago. If you're interested, you can catch it here.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Sorry, are you referring to the OSL finals with the crazy comeback? You seem like you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. But I was actually talking about a set they had on stream just a couple of days ago. If you're interested, you can catch it here.
OK, I got confused. I thought you were referring to OSL. The first post was referring to the KeSPA period and when I saw you mention 3:2 I automatically assumed that you mean OSL back then. Also because there was a period just before that OSL were Effort was playing like a beast, but already by the time of the final he seemed below his peak.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Sorry, are you referring to the OSL finals with the crazy comeback? You seem like you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. But I was actually talking about a set they had on stream just a couple of days ago. If you're interested, you can catch it here.
EffOrt winning a single set from Flash doesn't mean anything, especially when he has a losing record against Flash afaik and he also can't play as well on stage either. Thanks for the link, will watch regardless.
On June 05 2017 00:39 Lazare1969 wrote: >check afreeca youtube channel to watch the series >video thumbnail has Flash holding a trophy with his ASL jacket on
Well at least that saved me two hours.
LMAO. Earlier this season they used to use the same non-spoiling thumbnail for all the matches which was very nice for this reason. Strange that they changed it again.
Maybe they thought no one would think it's an actual spoiler because it's divinely predestined.
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Zero just went to military in May and Hydra got married and I think quit SCII. Not sure what he is doing now.
Thanks, good to know. But that's too bad. Zero was a great Zerg player and he could give Flash a good run for his money.
I'm sorry to be negative but no...Zero would be absolutely destroyed. I say this because at no point in brood war could Zero have hoped to beat flash in a best of five.
On June 06 2017 16:15 The Intrepid wrote: Bisu vs FlaSh would have been such a great final ...
There's no reason to believe given Bisu's performance that he would not also have lost 3-0. Especially how terrible he looked vs Shine. Please set your fanboyism aside for a bit.
On June 06 2017 06:37 Arkaim wrote: This Final really killed me. I was hoping for a storybook ending where hopes and dreams were possible and could be achieved. That's what I really needed. Instead this is still the time of cold hard reality. And that's what Flash is.
Please change your race icon (it's terran right now)
I couldn't watch live and read comments about Flash stomping Shine. I thought the games would be disappointing. But I wasn't disappointed at all. Great games and 3:0 sounds more one sided than it felt. Shine was in those games. Really entertaining.
Flash smashing drop ships down Shines throat to defuse the lurker fire and Shines innovative tactics. It’s incredible we can be seeing new strategies and new styles of playing in 2017. Broodwar has an infinite capacity to surprise.
I hope JD Effort Soulkey and the top Zergs see this as a blueprint playing Zerg. Only they have higher level mechanics to do transitions better than Shine has
On June 06 2017 19:37 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I hope JD Effort Soulkey and the top Zergs see this as a blueprint playing Zerg. Only they have higher level mechanics to do transitions better than Shine has
Maybe not a blueprint. But Shines showing there are more options and making Zerg less predictable has to be a good thing.
I can see Flashs smashing through the front with drops becoming more common too. That bodes badly for Z.
On June 06 2017 20:33 RKC wrote: So just out of curiosity (and to slightly sidetrack): which would you consider as the Top 3 best BW Starleague finals?
In terms of gameplay quality and competitiveness between both players?
(And while you're at it, you could list the Top 3 worst too!)
On June 06 2017 20:33 RKC wrote: So just out of curiosity (and to slightly sidetrack): which would you consider as the Top 3 best BW Starleague finals?
In terms of gameplay quality and competitiveness between both players?
(And while you're at it, you could list the Top 3 worst too!)
1. Bacchus 2010 OSL Finals - FanTaSy vs Stork
Rushed home to see this. Finally, we can get a championship after like 2 years, I thought. Then Stork got raped helplessly by freakin vultures 3-0.
Edit - JangBi vs FanTaSy Jin Air (sweet revenge too)
On June 06 2017 20:33 RKC wrote: So just out of curiosity (and to slightly sidetrack): which would you consider as the Top 3 best BW Starleague finals?
In terms of gameplay quality and competitiveness between both players?
(And while you're at it, you could list the Top 3 worst too!)
For me it is definitely Fantasy vs Jangbi OSL Finals. The pure quintessence of Brood War:
2. EVER2004 OSL 2004 iloveoov - BoxeR 3-2 (Best friendship match ever) 3. EVER2005 OSL 2005 July - Goodfriend 3-2 (game 5 July are you kidding me? Granted GF choked there so #3 only)
On June 05 2017 18:48 czechue wrote: Watching some of Flash's streams before finals I felt like there is no chance any Zerg can win bo5 with him right now...
Late years, in KeSPA times it was always formula like:
A Tosses <= A Zergs <<<< Flash >= ( S Tosses / Fantasy) >= JD / Effort > A Zergs >= A Tosses
During Fanta 's form picks it would even be Flash =< Fanta, but unfortunately he's in the army now...
You must've missed Flash's games vs Effort then :p. Effort beat him 3-2. Could've even been a 3-1 had Effort not blown the lead in one game.
That was the last time Effort actually was playing really well. After that he went back to being "just" good. And Effort won that series using early aggression, but since then Flash got way better dealing with such plays.
Zero and Hydra were promising Zerg players towards the end of BW; I wonder what happened to them.
Sorry, are you referring to the OSL finals with the crazy comeback? You seem like you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. But I was actually talking about a set they had on stream just a couple of days ago. If you're interested, you can catch it here.
EffOrt winning a single set from Flash doesn't mean anything, especially when he has a losing record against Flash afaik and he also can't play as well on stage either. Thanks for the link, will watch regardless.
In the current scene EffOrt is actually the Zerg with the best winrate against Flash. I think his problem outside of a team environment is consistency in broadcast games.
And to anyone hyping up ZerO, that's the player who didn't practice for MSL finals against Flash because he believed he couldn't win regardless. Mindset's one of the most important qualities to define player skill.
The real problem I have with BW 2011 and onwards is that Flash, unarguably the most talented player of all time is the only bonjwa in the game's history to have been aided by map rotations, almost as if KEspA (which was heavily criticized by players for putting marketing and storylines over the game's health) wanted a new bonjwa. Outsider and Heartbreak Ridge came off worse after their remakes, Neo Neo Python overtook Destination for most games played on in history, whoever okayed the double bridges on Circus Breaker should be crucified. Just bring back Bloodbath if you want the map pool to be bullshit. SaviOr was playing on Monty Hall and Hitchhiker. /rant
Making the map pool T-favoured might actually be a disservice to Flash considering his ridiculous win rate on maps considered to be Terran graveyards. Well, except for Battle Royale...
On June 10 2017 16:31 Lebesgue wrote: Right, everyone knows that Flash became dominant only because of the maps
That's why I said *after* he became dominant. He was already leagues on top of everyone else when CB Match Point and La Mancha got added to the map pool.
It's a reasonable point, but not entirely fair because Flash's innovations are a big part of why those maps became more T favored. With an assist from Fantasy and late game mech TvZ.
Flash turned map splitting / abusing 2 player maps into an art especially in TvP. Similarly he broke TvP, turning big 4 player maps which used to be really hard for TvP, into playable maps with his style.
Brood War has always been balanced by using the "hard" matchup (ZvT, TvP, PvZ) as much as anything. By screwing that up with his brilliance he made things look worse. The mapmakers were slow to adjust to this new reality - that a large four player map could be handled without too much trouble in TvP, and that it would be bad for ZvT (which used to be Z favored late game on a big map, but mech changed that).
Also, it's not like Terrans have been doing great as a whole. Back in the last few years of BW it was just Flash and Fantasy (while like 10 different Zergs and even random caliber Protoss like Movie made finals). Now it's Last and Flash with an occasional Sea but really that was just one good ASL run after the SSL era (before guys like Bisu and Effort had returned).
If anything Flash ruined BW for other Terrans. Without him (and to a lesser extent Fantasy) the story might be how weak T is and how maps need to be designed to make life easier for Terran. This is true if you remove the top players of any race but I think it's more true for Flash and Terran than any other player and their race.