EPTOn April 11 2012 16:00 zenkicker wrote:
Will SKT finally go to Hawaii for vacation? Or are they going somewhere else?
Will SKT finally go to Hawaii for vacation? Or are they going somewhere else?
i HEARD that they are going to a "Huh-why-E"
[SPL] Grand Final: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 373
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Release
United States4397 Posts
i HEARD that they are going to a "Huh-why-E" | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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elagrion
Ukraine422 Posts
On April 11 2012 15:28 Bisu-Fan wrote: BUT BISU wins when it matters!!! Yeah, like MSL group stage. Or come to that - OSL Preliminaries. I love Bisu, but you must admit brutal truth. | ||
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elagrion
Ukraine422 Posts
Is there shots of other shoutouts you guys have done? | ||
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DropBear
Australia4437 Posts
All finals series I've seen he's been a boss. Wp Hoejja | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On April 11 2012 17:49 elagrion wrote: Is there shots of other shoutouts you guys have done? masterbreti got some camera time, and made a heart with his hands. Nothing else as far as I know. The venue was quite dark, so it was hard to see shoutouts any way. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On April 11 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote: Exactly, a lot of people rushed to Flash's defense saying if he built vultures and mines instead of tanks he could have held. They forget that even if he held the first wave, he wouldn't have held the 2nd or the 3rd. If he didn't re-inforce the attack, Bisu would have had a 3 base 8 gate pump going, which Flash couldn't possibly hold anyway, and if he attacked, he would only have a couple of tanks and 3 vultures worth of mines to defend a 2 base 8 gate pump. Bisu had already rebuilt citadel and cybercore as well. Flash was just too far behind. bisu had a 3 base eco going on for quite long. which was really why flash lost. not sure why flash didnt move to vultures earlier right when he managed to hold off the cheese i also felt that flash's so called attack on the back of the main was really a trivial attack that never really did anything other than stopping mining on one base and not being able to advance any further due to his own bunker blocking him and so, never would it demand the need for him to be reinforcing that so called contain. | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On April 11 2012 18:53 JMave wrote: i also felt that flash's so called attack on the back of the main was really a trivial attack that never really did anything other than stopping mining on one base and not being able to advance any further due to his own bunker blocking him and so, never would it demand the need for him to be reinforcing that so called contain. I think he was planning on frog hopping into the main. He was gonna fortify the high ground while Bisu would break against the shelling. Towards the end of the vid while Flash was pulling his army back, you see a drop ship flying towards Bisu's base | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
To be honest I think Flash lost when he tried to push out with his marines just after fending off first few zealots and Bisu used the ramp to his full advantage to stop that push. If it wasn't reverse ground that push would probably reach shut down the proxy gate and Bisu would be in really tough position - just see Flash vs Violet game. But Bisu used the ramp perfectly, stopped that push which implied that Flash had to invest really heavily into marines. Obviously, constant probe harass by Bisu really helped. Anyway, great game. Sad that Flash lost but I think both players played an amazing game and Bisu was simply a bit better... Decision to counter was key. Flash didn't expect that at all - otherwise he could have tried to build some sort of simcity to stop. He also invested in starport and dropship. In hindsight he should have used those resources to get vultures and mines but nobody can blame him for that. He was really behind at that time and had to take an initiative to turn the tables. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On April 11 2012 15:54 sluggaslamoo wrote: Exactly, a lot of people rushed to Flash's defense saying if he built vultures and mines instead of tanks he could have held. They forget that even if he held the first wave, he wouldn't have held the 2nd or the 3rd. If he didn't re-inforce the attack, Bisu would have had a 3 base 8 gate pump going, which Flash couldn't possibly hold anyway, and if he attacked, he would only have a couple of tanks and 3 vultures worth of mines to defend a 2 base 8 gate pump. Bisu had already rebuilt citadel and cybercore as well. Flash was just too far behind. Ermm.. No. Flash couldn't afford to upgrade Mines all game. So maybe he could have built Vults. But he absolutely wouldn't have any mines (or would have held, for that matter). Bisu had 14 Zeals 2 Goons, Flash had 1 production round of Factory units. I doubt he would have held, even if he had enough money to wall in (he didn't) | ||
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SevenSeven
Korea (South)37 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
It was pretty obvious that that build was pretty thoroughly thought out. Everything Bisu did, even if it seemed wasteful, served an important purpose. | ||
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TheGlassface
United States612 Posts
It's gonna be weird/wild/??? Also, lmfao @ the comments during Bisu V Flash Protoss has racial ability to build anywhere on the map and quickly ---> when someone uses the race to it's potential ---> cheese? See ya later KT You tried  Best games I've seen in a long time from all. Brood War Hwaiting!! | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 11 2012 22:42 Lebesgue wrote: I rewatched the vod again and I don't agree that Flash let Bisu stole gas. You can see clearly that at the moment the probe puts assimilator Flash has an scv going towards the geyser. Once Bisu steals gas he pulls his scv back. I personally see that as a rather transparent fake, in hopes that it would divert Bisu's attention away from a semi-hidden second rax. Again, Flash had way more than enough time to block the gas rush, and he simply chose not to because it would delay his second rax, and give him the edge in the early stages of the game. To be honest I think Flash lost when he tried to push out with his marines just after fending off first few zealots and Bisu used the ramp to his full advantage to stop that push. If it wasn't reverse ground that push would probably reach shut down the proxy gate and Bisu would be in really tough position - just see Flash vs Violet game. But Bisu used the ramp perfectly, stopped that push which implied that Flash had to invest really heavily into marines. If anything, it was a mistake for Bisu to try to engage Flash's army at the reverse ramp .. losing three marines for three zealots was a GREAT trade for Flash, and Bisu was only saved by positioning his other zealots in a way that Flash couldn't just simply block with his SCVs while he gunned down the proxy. Perhaps if Flash had pulled more SCVs for a wider angle to block, he could've taken out the proxy ... but at that point its all theorycrafting. I would also like to point out that you CAN perfectly wall the front the natural on Chain Reaction w/ a Supply/Supply/Barracks simcity. Had Flash invested in such a wall beforehand, he might've been able to survive, which in turn would've allow his drop (of presumable Tank/MnM) to force abandonment of the natural. Bisu had been on 3base economy for about 2-3 minutes, and Flash's bachanic push forced the evacuation of the main, reducing Bisu to only 2base .. If the drop was successful, then Bisu would've effectively been 1 base, allowing Flash to make a comeback. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:36 SevenSeven wrote: It wasn't that he couldn't afford it, he was more hoping that Bisu would throw more units at his gurilla force so that it would buy him enough time to stablize things back at his base. To do this he invested gas into tanks instead of getting vult speed/mines first. Maybe after seeing that Bisu focused all his attention on his smaller force, he would get the mines and draw up another plan. Bisu got the zeal speed in time for that zealot push too. Flash was hoping that gas would go into more goons that'll try and fend off his tanks at that back choke. I watched the game a few times. At no point in time did Flash look like he can spare 200/200 for Vults Upgrades. By spare, i mean that it wouldn't affect his next production cycle. That, and his fact count means building Vults would heavily affect his tank count. 2 rounds of Vults (== 6, not much) would mean ~3 tanks less for Flash. And i don't think Flash ever had more than 6 tanks at the same time, before the very end (when the last 3 tanks spawned, but Zeals reached anyway.) 3 tanks less from that count would have meant that Bisu would overrun him w Mass Goons, easily. | ||
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MaRiNe23
United States747 Posts
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote: Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew. I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote: It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... My opinion is that Bisu outmicroed Flash at a few keypoints. | ||
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MaRiNe23
United States747 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote: It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote: Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. | ||
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