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On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins.
Actually, the reverse ramp played a lot into the situation. Normally, terrans can hold a ramp with 3-4 SCVs and a few marines. They would not need to go 2 rax to fend off a proxy 1 gate as we saw here. It was the reverse-ramp that forced Flash away from the ramp, toward his sim-city, and a 2-rax. If it were a normal, ramped map like FS, I doubt Flash would allow a proxy 1-gate zealot to do so much damage early on by killing so many marines. Notice how Flash's first marine actually comes out while the Zealot is near the ramp. If he could block the ramp with SCVs and reinforce it with marines on a ramped map, I'm pretty sure he'd hold it that way. Furthermore, Bisu used the reverse ramp when Flash first tried to move out. It probably gave Bisu 2-3 more hits on Flash's marines, if not more.
Of course, I wouldn't attribute the win to map imbalance, but I also don't think map imbalance didn't play a part in it. In the end, it is Bisu whom Flash lost to, not NCR. However, to say the map imbalances didn't play a part in the game is wrong. I'm sure the coach felt that way too considering his comments, and he's easily more knowledgeable than I.
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On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins.
I simply think that if it wasn't a reverse ramp, Flash would have bunkered the natural after he deflected the 3 zealots attack and expanded. But if you don't have a gas to tech and can't expand, you really can't do anything else than 2 rax.
I agree with your comment on the third base, and Bisu's unreal multitask and micro.
The map was unanimously considered imbalanced. 10/15 is even stronger on NCR than on Tau Cross or Longinus. Terran must build a bunker + repair supply depots constantly under the ramp until siege upgrade. I think Flash's early scout was mainly to look for a 10/15. Meanwhile Protoss can tech or double expand. Reaver harass is quite powerful with the setup of the bases. And Bisu also showed in the first set that you can easily make a DT jump over the backdoor mineral block.
SKT picked this map because they know it would be incredibly hard for Flash to play on the map. KT also thought about sending another player over Flash. Basically only Flash was confident enough to play TvP on NCR and insisted to be sent.
Bisu's play was flawless, but he did have a huge mental advantage. Bisu often lacks of confidence in PvT, this map gave him this confidence, because he could harass Flash with various builds without any form of retaliation. When his proxy pylon was scouted he didn't seem like "o shit, what now ?". I mean, he didn't even try to hide the proxy gate, it's was right in the path.
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United States7639 Posts
On April 12 2012 10:25 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Actually, the reverse ramp played a lot into the situation. Normally, terrans can hold a ramp with 3-4 SCVs and a few marines. They would not need to go 2 rax to fend off a proxy 1 gate as we saw here. It was the reverse-ramp that forced Flash away from the ramp, toward his sim-city, and a 2-rax. If it were a normal, ramped map like FS, I doubt Flash would allow a proxy 1-gate zealot to do so much damage early on by killing so many marines. Notice how Flash's first marine actually comes out while the Zealot is near the ramp. If he could block the ramp with SCVs and reinforce it with marines on a ramped map, I'm pretty sure he'd hold it that way. Furthermore, Bisu used the reverse ramp when Flash first tried to move out. It probably gave Bisu 2-3 more hits on Flash's marines, if not more. Of course, I wouldn't attribute the win to map imbalance, but I also don't think map imbalance didn't play a part in it. In the end, it is Bisu who Flash lost to, not NCR. However, to say the map imbalances didn't play a part in the game is wrong. I'm sure the coach felt that way too considering his comments, and he's easily more knowledgeable than I.
A fair argument, and I can certainly accept that. I just don't really appreciate comments like "Fantasy's win was skill, while Bisu's was just map imba."
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Once you have agreed to play in a map like that, giving them 2 weeks to prepare, you don't need to use map imbalance as a reason for Flash defeat. They could have sent Stats or whoever if that's the case. Once the players are inside the booth, all other external factors are taken out (maybe except power outage) coz you have given time to decide and prepare.
I also agree that there's also a possibility that Flash will proxy barracks Bisu. If he's checkin for cheese, he should have checked the back of the main as Bisu had done this before.
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On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins.
Like you mentioned, the reverse ramp and difficulty in taking a third are big big ones. In python(especially tvp)you can see this as terran either has to get 4 fax or more before pushing to their third or grab an island instead or resort to 6 fact timing push. However like you said again the game ended before this happened for it to even matter.
In this game the reverse ramp did play a huge role. It forced flash to do 2 rax to have enough rines to bust out. There are some instances where you can go 2 rax vs a proxy gate but usually all u need is one rax and just have to micro ur rines in between ur sim city buildings, even more so with progamer micro. Even vs 2 gate zealots you don't need 2 rax...you just build a bunker near ur rax and factory so that when the zealots try to target ur scv making the factory, the zealot will get hit plenty of times while u cancel ur scv and send another one to continue building the factory. All u need to do is get one vulture out and that rush is done.
And of course most of the fighting happened on level ground...it's because flash had enough rines to bust out due to him going 2 rax in the first place! I don't think u understand something. 2 rax isn't even considered standard in TvZ anymore. The fact that he was forced to start off with 2 rax is huge.
Your right. He did get forced into it and that's my point. Had it been a regular map without reverse ramps, flash could've just stayed at 1 rax and micro'ed that easily and just do his standard 1 rax fe into vulture tank ultra-turtle macro mode and who knows what would've happened.
You know what I think? I think that the proxy gateway in tvp is not that good of a strategy in the pro level anymore xcept maybe in two player maps but even then pro's will expect it like flash did in this game. They put so much emphasis in their sim city vs zealot and marine micro vs zealot that the toss will be put too far behind if the zeal does no real damage and since the gate is close-by, it will die and toss will be very behind. Honestly, I haven't seen a toss do a proxy gate in tvp in a long time. The fact that bisu(the best toss in the world)used it on this map just proves how strong it is on this map and former progamer(now announcer TheMarine)along with the other announcer mentioned this as well at the beginning of the game when his probe came out.
In this game flash had enough marines to bust out. But say he did stay at 1 rax. Can't bisu just keep his zealots on high ground and fight only on the ramp where there's a chance marine fire will miss becuz of the 70% ramp miss fire thingy? He then sends the zeals that lost their shields in the back to regenerate their shield while sending the healthy zealots to do this over and over again. Flash would've only had 4 rines instead of 8(or however many he had when he busted out). There's no way he's busting out of that. Then bisu will have dragoons on high ground too which will take flash forever to bust out and land his CC. I mean this is just what i think might have happened.
If you can't come to an agreement that the map didn't play any role(not even a little bit)in forcing flash to 2 rax which in turn made flash do a MnM build(which bisu knew could possibly come and made reaver)then we really can't go anywhere with this argument.
SK knew the map was imbalanced..thats y they picked it so that flash wouldn't come out in ace, KT's coach knew it was imbalanced, bisu knew it was imabalanced and chose the strongest strategy to use on that map, FLASH knew it was imbalanced but still wanted to come out and take on all the burden. Even the announcers including TheMarine said that at the start of the game.
The fact that you can tell me that I didn't examine the game and I'm just blaming the map just appauls me. That tvp was far from any standard tvp. All I saw from that game was flash doing his best to overcome all odds one step at a time:
1) He knows bisu's gonna proxy--->sends scv out to confirm it with his eyes 100%
2) Builds 2 rax to have any hope of taking charge of his ramp
3) Next step is to kill the gateway outside my nat
4) Uh oh Bisu has a 3rd, I have to go out and do something because the longer I wait, the more preparation he will have vs my MnM to get high templars with storm and mass units due to his 3rd expo
5) (Comes out but sees bisu has more units than him) Uh oh he has more units than I do but I can't just sit in my base and let that third expo of his continue running and outmacro me, what do i do? I know, I can use that tight little area behind his main to my advantage so that even if he has more units than me, he'll lose way more units than usual trying to bust that than if I were to fight him on open ground and flank me from all sides.
6) etc..etc..
and btw, I never said map imbalance was the sole reason that flash lost, i said it played a large role in his loss, which is just my OPINION and the coach's opinion as well.
I hope I did a little better job at elaborating this time as I agree my last post was alittle vague to just say "map imbalance" and call it a day.
edit: Man lol..took me almost an hour to type this up. I'm kind of on limited time right now because of schoolwork so if I don't reply for awhile it's not cuz im ignoring u, but send me another reply and I'll try to get back to u as soon as possible(Or if I decide to wanna procrastinate again -_-).
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+ Show Spoiler +Please mods I need a 2-day ban to mourn this, thanks
Flash will be back with a vengeance in the OSL!
User was temp banned for this post.
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I have a question here for people whining about the map:
Can't you whine about the KT coaching decision to not play Stats?
Stats is a match in PvP against Bisu, and if SKT sent out Fantasy instead the map imba would work in KT's favor - how is Stats not a good decision here?
I have no pity for KT if they don't use the map to their advantage, and then lose
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On April 12 2012 13:35 scrubtastic wrote:
I have a question here for people whining about the map:
Can't you whine about the KT coaching decision to not play Stats?
Stats is a match in PvP against Bisu, and if SKT sent out Fantasy instead the map imba would work in KT's favor - how is Stats not a good decision here?
I have no pity for KT if they don't use the map to their advantage, and then lose
Coach Lee said Flash insisted to play the ace match. I wouldn't have said no if God had asked me.
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United States7639 Posts
Just wondering, why is it determined that reverse ramp = protoss good, terran bad? Jade also features reverse ramps to the main, but I don't think anyone has attempted to make the argument that Jade sucks for Terran. Recall Best vs Flash on Jade earlier this season. Flash intended on leapfrogging bunkers from a position on the high ground at the top of the ramp. Although the strategy ultimately wasn't necessary as Best kind of just rolled over and died within his base, it seems that such a contain would have been absolutely brutal. Would it not be more apt to say that reverse ramps simply favor early aggression? As in, whoever gets into position first is aided by the map, and not just simply whoever plays Protoss ._.
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Keep in mind that if Stats lost, the decision to send him would be even more criticized.
Also, Stats is very much inferior to Bisu when Bisu plays at his peak(which he would if he'd be sent for ace in the PL finals). He would most likely be defeated.
Flash WAS the best choice. He's not good enough for the map to be nearly irrelevant(a distinction that only Savior really has), but he is terran enough to have the highest chance of winning of any player on his team, even on NCR. Bisu just outprepared and outplayed the best KT could throw at him.
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On April 12 2012 13:51 Kiett wrote:
Just wondering, why is it determined that reverse ramp = protoss good, terran bad? Jade also features reverse ramps to the main, but I don't think anyone has attempted to make the argument that Jade sucks for Terran. Recall Best vs Flash on Jade earlier this season. Flash intended on leapfrogging bunkers from a position on the high ground at the top of the ramp. Although the strategy ultimately wasn't necessary as Best kind of just rolled over and died within his base, it seems that such a contain would have been absolutely brutal. Would it not be more apt to say that reverse ramps simply favor early aggression? As in, whoever gets into position first is aided by the map, and not just simply whoever plays Protoss ._.
Marines don't have vision of units on top of the ramp, so they can't shoot at them. And even when they can see them, they have a 47% of missing their shots due to the high ground advantage of zealots. So basically if zealots are blocking the ramps, it's extremely difficult to go out.
But zealots have to be in contact to attack, so the vision issue does not matter, and the 47% penalty only applies to ranged units, not to zealots.
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On April 12 2012 12:28 MaRiNe23 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Like you mentioned, the reverse ramp and difficulty in taking a third are big big ones. In python(especially tvp)you can see this as terran either has to get 4 fax or more before pushing to their third or grab an island instead or resort to 6 fact timing push. However like you said again the game ended before this happened for it to even matter. In this game the reverse ramp did play a huge role. It forced flash to do 2 rax to have enough rines to bust out. There are some instances where you can go 2 rax vs a proxy gate but usually all u need is one rax and just have to micro ur rines in between ur sim city buildings, even more so with progamer micro. Even vs 2 gate zealots you don't need 2 rax...you just build a bunker near ur rax and factory so that when the zealots try to target ur scv making the factory, the zealot will get hit plenty of times while u cancel ur scv and send another one to continue building the factory. All u need to do is get one vulture out and that rush is done. And of course most of the fighting happened on level ground...it's because flash had enough rines to bust out due to him going 2 rax in the first place! I don't think u understand something. 2 rax isn't even considered standard in TvZ anymore. The fact that he was forced to start off with 2 rax is huge. Your right. He did get forced into it and that's my point. Had it been a regular map without reverse ramps, flash could've just stayed at 1 rax and micro'ed that easily and just do his standard 1 rax fe into vulture tank ultra-turtle macro mode and who knows what would've happened. You know what I think? I think that the proxy gateway in tvp is not that good of a strategy in the pro level anymore xcept maybe in two player maps but even then pro's will expect it like flash did in this game. They put so much emphasis in their sim city vs zealot and marine micro vs zealot that the toss will be put too far behind if the zeal does no real damage and since the gate is close-by, it will die and toss will be very behind. Honestly, I haven't seen a toss do a proxy gate in tvp in a long time. The fact that bisu(the best toss in the world)used it on this map just proves how strong it is on this map and former progamer(now announcer TheMarine)along with the other announcer mentioned this as well at the beginning of the game when his probe came out. In this game flash had enough marines to bust out. But say he did stay at 1 rax. Can't bisu just keep his zealots on high ground and fight only on the ramp where there's a chance marine fire will miss becuz of the 70% ramp miss fire thingy? He then sends the zeals that lost their shields in the back to regenerate their shield while sending the healthy zealots to do this over and over again. Flash would've only had 4 rines instead of 8(or however many he had when he busted out). There's no way he's busting out of that. Then bisu will have dragoons on high ground too which will take flash forever to bust out and land his CC. I mean this is just what i think might have happened. If you can't come to an agreement that the map didn't play any role(not even a little bit)in forcing flash to 2 rax which in turn made flash do a MnM build(which bisu knew could possibly come and made reaver)then we really can't go anywhere with this argument. SK knew the map was imbalanced..thats y they picked it so that flash wouldn't come out in ace, KT's coach knew it was imbalanced, bisu knew it was imabalanced and chose the strongest strategy to use on that map, FLASH knew it was imbalanced but still wanted to come out and take on all the burden. Even the announcers including TheMarine said that at the start of the game. The fact that you can tell me that I didn't examine the game and I'm just blaming the map just appauls me. That tvp was far from any standard tvp. All I saw from that game was flash doing his best to overcome all odds one step at a time: 1) He knows bisu's gonna proxy--->sends scv out to confirm it with his eyes 100% 2) Builds 2 rax to have any hope of taking charge of his ramp 3) Next step is to kill the gateway outside my nat 4) Uh oh Bisu has a 3rd, I have to go out and do something because the longer I wait, the more preparation he will have vs my MnM to get high templars with storm and mass units due to his 3rd expo 5) (Comes out but sees bisu has more units than him) Uh oh he has more units than I do but I can't just sit in my base and let that third expo of his continue running and outmacro me, what do i do? I know, I can use that tight little area behind his main to my advantage so that even if he has more units than me, he'll lose way more units than usual trying to bust that than if I were to fight him on open ground and flank me from all sides. 6) etc..etc.. and btw, I never said map imbalance was the sole reason that flash lost, i said it played a large role in his loss, which is just my OPINION and the coach's opinion as well. I hope I did a little better job at elaborating this time as I agree my last post was alittle vague to just say "map imbalance" and call it a day. edit: Man lol..took me almost an hour to type this up. I'm kind of on limited time right now because of schoolwork so if I don't reply for awhile it's not cuz im ignoring u, but send me another reply and I'll try to get back to u as soon as possible(Or if I decide to wanna procrastinate again -_-) .
There are big differences between
"Bisu's win was all because of map imbalance" and
"Flash played well, but he did get out-microed/mind-gamed at a few instances, couldn't overcome map disadvantages and lost"
Your statement (the first one) completely ignore Bisu's micro, mind-game or preparation. It hardly comes as a surprise that people (especially Bisu's fans, like me) don't agree with you.
1/ Bisu did a good job splitting up his Zeal force for a flank near the Proxy location. Had he walked from the same direction, the SCV block would have been enough, and Flash would have crushed the Proxy quickly
2/ Bisu managed to hide a probe in Flash's natural, which took the opportunity to come back and Gas Steal/Manner Pylon Flash later on for more damages.
3/ Bisu looked prepared for Flash responses, and worked his strategies accordingly.
Additionally, you are overutilising your hindsight a lot in your analysis. Flash' gameplan was to take a quick natural. This likely stemmed from the fact that he expect Bisu to expand behind the pressure, like he did on Neo Aztec. Of course you know this to be not the case, hence suggesting that Flash "turtle off 1 base". But that would have been terrible had Bisu expand and secure good economy while Flash "turtle" to Vulture (which was mightly late, mind) in hopes of fending off a few meagre Zealots.
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On April 12 2012 13:35 scrubtastic wrote:
I have a question here for people whining about the map:
Can't you whine about the KT coaching decision to not play Stats?
Stats is a match in PvP against Bisu, and if SKT sent out Fantasy instead the map imba would work in KT's favor - how is Stats not a good decision here?
I have no pity for KT if they don't use the map to their advantage, and then lose
You know what the funny thing is? A very similar scenario happened just last grand final. But the question then was why did best come out instead of bisu? I mean it was literally the same..SK vs KT PL finals, goes to ace match, knows flash is gonna come out, but then they send out best instead of bisu and there's this whole argument about it(go check that thread out).
Best(at that time)had a really good pvt and I believe had a winning record against flash. Just like what ur saying right now(stats has a winning record against bisu).
think about it..it's seriously the exact same logic..stats has winning record vs bisu, best had a winning record vs flash, why they send out flash instead of stats? why they send out best instead of bisu?
In my opinion, I believe the reason comes down to experience. Flash just has way more finals ace match expierence than any other player on KT, and is the only player(imo)that can stand toe to toe vs bisu skill vs skill. Who knows what would've happened had stats came out and couldn't deal with all that pressure of playing the final game of the season that decides whether or not ur team wins or loses. Even if stats has a winning record vs bisu, doesn't mean bisu is always gonna lose to stats. And bisu isn't just some no-name player. He's SK's ace. He's still perfectly capable of taking down stats and has more expierence in these intensive last game ace matches. I mean that's why games are played. It doesn't matter if stats is statistically better and "should" win. Upsets happen. Especially considering SK sent out their ace player. Flash was just a more "safer" option(imo)and also the fact he insisted he come out.
I mean statistically and logically yea stats is better choice but ur leaving out the mental aspect of playing the final ace match. What if stats did come out for ace and still ended up losing? There would've been pages and pages of blame for KT's coach about why he didn't send out flash like what happened last finals with bisu and best.
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i can't wait for the epic write-up that the TL staff is going to give us
really can't wait
SKT BOO-YEAH
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On April 12 2012 13:51 Kiett wrote:
Just wondering, why is it determined that reverse ramp = protoss good, terran bad? Jade also features reverse ramps to the main, but I don't think anyone has attempted to make the argument that Jade sucks for Terran. Recall Best vs Flash on Jade earlier this season. Flash intended on leapfrogging bunkers from a position on the high ground at the top of the ramp. Although the strategy ultimately wasn't necessary as Best kind of just rolled over and died within his base, it seems that such a contain would have been absolutely brutal. Would it not be more apt to say that reverse ramps simply favor early aggression? As in, whoever gets into position first is aided by the map, and not just simply whoever plays Protoss ._.
the reverse ramp is just one reason the map is bad for terran, and not even the most important at that. reverse ramps tend to favor the protoss more because if terran is in a position to take advantage of the reverse ramp, that means they are setting up siege tanks/ bunkers in the natural. At that point protoss lost anyway, regardless of reverse or normal ramp. There are few situations where the reverse ramp actually stops the protoss from breaking out, but there are plenty of times where a terran can have a hard time getting up the ramp when it would be very easy to otherwise seige tanks on top of a cliff and force the goons home.
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10387 Posts
dafuq is all this BS about reverse ramps. If that was a valid argument/point, Flash wouldn't have 2raxed Violet on Polaris Rhaspody. With the proxy gate being THAT close, the situation would've been the same regardless of map.
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On April 12 2012 14:23 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 12:28 MaRiNe23 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Like you mentioned, the reverse ramp and difficulty in taking a third are big big ones. In python(especially tvp)you can see this as terran either has to get 4 fax or more before pushing to their third or grab an island instead or resort to 6 fact timing push. However like you said again the game ended before this happened for it to even matter. In this game the reverse ramp did play a huge role. It forced flash to do 2 rax to have enough rines to bust out. There are some instances where you can go 2 rax vs a proxy gate but usually all u need is one rax and just have to micro ur rines in between ur sim city buildings, even more so with progamer micro. Even vs 2 gate zealots you don't need 2 rax...you just build a bunker near ur rax and factory so that when the zealots try to target ur scv making the factory, the zealot will get hit plenty of times while u cancel ur scv and send another one to continue building the factory. All u need to do is get one vulture out and that rush is done. And of course most of the fighting happened on level ground...it's because flash had enough rines to bust out due to him going 2 rax in the first place! I don't think u understand something. 2 rax isn't even considered standard in TvZ anymore. The fact that he was forced to start off with 2 rax is huge. Your right. He did get forced into it and that's my point. Had it been a regular map without reverse ramps, flash could've just stayed at 1 rax and micro'ed that easily and just do his standard 1 rax fe into vulture tank ultra-turtle macro mode and who knows what would've happened. You know what I think? I think that the proxy gateway in tvp is not that good of a strategy in the pro level anymore xcept maybe in two player maps but even then pro's will expect it like flash did in this game. They put so much emphasis in their sim city vs zealot and marine micro vs zealot that the toss will be put too far behind if the zeal does no real damage and since the gate is close-by, it will die and toss will be very behind. Honestly, I haven't seen a toss do a proxy gate in tvp in a long time. The fact that bisu(the best toss in the world)used it on this map just proves how strong it is on this map and former progamer(now announcer TheMarine)along with the other announcer mentioned this as well at the beginning of the game when his probe came out. In this game flash had enough marines to bust out. But say he did stay at 1 rax. Can't bisu just keep his zealots on high ground and fight only on the ramp where there's a chance marine fire will miss becuz of the 70% ramp miss fire thingy? He then sends the zeals that lost their shields in the back to regenerate their shield while sending the healthy zealots to do this over and over again. Flash would've only had 4 rines instead of 8(or however many he had when he busted out). There's no way he's busting out of that. Then bisu will have dragoons on high ground too which will take flash forever to bust out and land his CC. I mean this is just what i think might have happened. If you can't come to an agreement that the map didn't play any role(not even a little bit)in forcing flash to 2 rax which in turn made flash do a MnM build(which bisu knew could possibly come and made reaver)then we really can't go anywhere with this argument. SK knew the map was imbalanced..thats y they picked it so that flash wouldn't come out in ace, KT's coach knew it was imbalanced, bisu knew it was imabalanced and chose the strongest strategy to use on that map, FLASH knew it was imbalanced but still wanted to come out and take on all the burden. Even the announcers including TheMarine said that at the start of the game. The fact that you can tell me that I didn't examine the game and I'm just blaming the map just appauls me. That tvp was far from any standard tvp. All I saw from that game was flash doing his best to overcome all odds one step at a time: 1) He knows bisu's gonna proxy--->sends scv out to confirm it with his eyes 100% 2) Builds 2 rax to have any hope of taking charge of his ramp 3) Next step is to kill the gateway outside my nat 4) Uh oh Bisu has a 3rd, I have to go out and do something because the longer I wait, the more preparation he will have vs my MnM to get high templars with storm and mass units due to his 3rd expo 5) (Comes out but sees bisu has more units than him) Uh oh he has more units than I do but I can't just sit in my base and let that third expo of his continue running and outmacro me, what do i do? I know, I can use that tight little area behind his main to my advantage so that even if he has more units than me, he'll lose way more units than usual trying to bust that than if I were to fight him on open ground and flank me from all sides. 6) etc..etc.. and btw, I never said map imbalance was the sole reason that flash lost, i said it played a large role in his loss, which is just my OPINION and the coach's opinion as well. I hope I did a little better job at elaborating this time as I agree my last post was alittle vague to just say "map imbalance" and call it a day. edit: Man lol..took me almost an hour to type this up. I'm kind of on limited time right now because of schoolwork so if I don't reply for awhile it's not cuz im ignoring u, but send me another reply and I'll try to get back to u as soon as possible(Or if I decide to wanna procrastinate again -_-) . There are big differences between "Bisu's win was all because of map imbalance" and "Flash played well, but he did get out-microed/mind-gamed at a few instances, couldn't overcome map disadvantages and lost" Your statement (the first one) completely ignore Bisu's micro, mind-game or preparation. It hardly comes as a surprise that people (especially Bisu's fans, like me) don't agree with you. 1/ Bisu did a good job splitting up his Zeal force for a flank near the Proxy location. Had he walked from the same direction, the SCV block would have been enough, and Flash would have crushed the Proxy quickly 2/ Bisu managed to hide a probe in Flash's natural, which took the opportunity to come back and Gas Steal/Manner Pylon Flash later on for more damages. 3/ Bisu looked prepared for Flash responses, and worked his strategies accordingly. Additionally, you are overutilising your hindsight a lot in your analysis. Flash' gameplan was to take a quick natural. This likely stemmed from the fact that he expect Bisu to expand behind the pressure, like he did on Neo Aztec. Of course you know this to be not the case, hence suggesting that Flash "turtle off 1 base". But that would have been terrible had Bisu expand and secure good economy while Flash "turtle" to Vulture (which was mightly late, mind) in hopes of fending off a few meagre Zealots.
How on earth are u going to take a quick natural when there's a proxy gate outside ur base?! The zealot was alrdy nearing his base when his FIRST marine came out................ .Even if he quickly made a bunker at his nat, there's only one marine inside...he can just run by that and walk into flash's main.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what u mean by fast expo and if I did I apologize. Do u mean 1 rax fe or 1 fax fe? Or do u mean after he fends off the wave of zeals and gets up that reversible ramp? Cuz that's what flash did. After he got up the ramp, he expanded but i wouldn't call that a "fast expand"
I think flash's gameplan was to first find a way to stop that proxy gate and go from there and I have evidence to support this. First, he sent his scv before his depot was even done. Bisu blatantly built the proxy gate in the normal scouting path and doesn't even try to hide it. Clearly bisu knows that this is a strong strat for this map and flash knows bisu is gonna do it and just wants to confirm it by sending the scv before the first depot is even done. I mean even the announcers comment on how it's a common and strong strat on this map and even if terran's block it well, they still gain no advantage from doing so. That's why I think his gameplan was to first do something about the proxy. <-----now from here on I can't really say for certain cuz it's really up to the player whether to do a 2 rax all in scv/marine cheese after getting up the ramp and killin that proxy gate(then toss will be one gate less)and punishing him if he did a really fast expo or just doing like he did and doing a MnM transition or just lift both rax and make facts and do mech only.
But I do agree with:
"Flash played well, but he did get out-microed/mind-gamed at a few instances, couldn't overcome map disadvantages and lost" <------this is worded much better than what I implied in my post thank u.
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On April 12 2012 14:15 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 13:51 Kiett wrote:
Just wondering, why is it determined that reverse ramp = protoss good, terran bad? Jade also features reverse ramps to the main, but I don't think anyone has attempted to make the argument that Jade sucks for Terran. Recall Best vs Flash on Jade earlier this season. Flash intended on leapfrogging bunkers from a position on the high ground at the top of the ramp. Although the strategy ultimately wasn't necessary as Best kind of just rolled over and died within his base, it seems that such a contain would have been absolutely brutal. Would it not be more apt to say that reverse ramps simply favor early aggression? As in, whoever gets into position first is aided by the map, and not just simply whoever plays Protoss ._. Marines don't have vision of units on top of the ramp, so they can't shoot at them. And even when they can see them, they have a 47% of missing their shots due to the high ground advantage of zealots. So basically if zealots are blocking the ramps, it's extremely difficult to go out. But zealots have to be in contact to attack, so the vision issue does not matter, and the 47% penalty only applies to ranged units, not to zealots.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Another thing is that when the ramps are regular like on FS, you have vision of the zealot AS IT COMES UP the ramp meaning, your marines are shooting the entire time getting free hits on the zealot as it moves up the ramp. This is not the case for reversed maps. You shoot only after u have vision and even then u still have a chance to miss hitting the zealot becuz of the high ground thing like endy said.
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On April 12 2012 11:59 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 10:25 ghrur wrote:On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Actually, the reverse ramp played a lot into the situation. Normally, terrans can hold a ramp with 3-4 SCVs and a few marines. They would not need to go 2 rax to fend off a proxy 1 gate as we saw here. It was the reverse-ramp that forced Flash away from the ramp, toward his sim-city, and a 2-rax. If it were a normal, ramped map like FS, I doubt Flash would allow a proxy 1-gate zealot to do so much damage early on by killing so many marines. Notice how Flash's first marine actually comes out while the Zealot is near the ramp. If he could block the ramp with SCVs and reinforce it with marines on a ramped map, I'm pretty sure he'd hold it that way. Furthermore, Bisu used the reverse ramp when Flash first tried to move out. It probably gave Bisu 2-3 more hits on Flash's marines, if not more. Of course, I wouldn't attribute the win to map imbalance, but I also don't think map imbalance didn't play a part in it. In the end, it is Bisu who Flash lost to, not NCR. However, to say the map imbalances didn't play a part in the game is wrong. I'm sure the coach felt that way too considering his comments, and he's easily more knowledgeable than I. A fair argument, and I can certainly accept that. I just don't really appreciate comments like "Fantasy's win was skill, while Bisu's was just map imba."
Well, given Bisu's track record of complaining about map imbalance, I can see why people would take that approach 
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 12 2012 16:23 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 11:59 Kiett wrote:On April 12 2012 10:25 ghrur wrote:On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote:On April 12 2012 08:33 MaRiNe23 wrote:On April 12 2012 04:25 Elroi wrote:On April 12 2012 03:10 MaRiNe23 wrote:
Just the fact bisu KNEW flash was doing mnm in a tvp already put flash at a disadvantage. MnM strat in tvp is supposed to be a "surprise" "han-bang" super powerful swift timing push to protoss's natural and containing him inside his main. Bisu was already going reaver(anti-MnM)and making preparations to stop this since he already knew.
I doubt flash would've done this strat had it been any other map or even if he did, it would've been more deceptive...like putting turrets all around the perimeter of his base so observers can't come in to scout the 6 rax or something. It wasn't 'mnm', it was just 'm', a lot less comital. I don't think I have ever seen that counter to a proxy gate before... Even if it was just "m" for a while at the beginning, he knew flash had 2 rax making constant marines(he knew this by constantly trying to go up the ramp with his dragoons)and just by that scouting information alone, the protoss knows that terran is able to switch easily to MnM if he wants to. Just like when terran makes a starport to make a wraith for shuttle drops, toss still has to prepare for dropships since terran can easily make one since he already has a starport. Regardless, my main point was that the map imbalance played a large role in bisu winning. Fantasy beat flash through pure skill. I will fully acknowledge that. I'm just a bit bitter about bisu's win over flash though :/ What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Actually, the reverse ramp played a lot into the situation. Normally, terrans can hold a ramp with 3-4 SCVs and a few marines. They would not need to go 2 rax to fend off a proxy 1 gate as we saw here. It was the reverse-ramp that forced Flash away from the ramp, toward his sim-city, and a 2-rax. If it were a normal, ramped map like FS, I doubt Flash would allow a proxy 1-gate zealot to do so much damage early on by killing so many marines. Notice how Flash's first marine actually comes out while the Zealot is near the ramp. If he could block the ramp with SCVs and reinforce it with marines on a ramped map, I'm pretty sure he'd hold it that way. Furthermore, Bisu used the reverse ramp when Flash first tried to move out. It probably gave Bisu 2-3 more hits on Flash's marines, if not more. Of course, I wouldn't attribute the win to map imbalance, but I also don't think map imbalance didn't play a part in it. In the end, it is Bisu who Flash lost to, not NCR. However, to say the map imbalances didn't play a part in the game is wrong. I'm sure the coach felt that way too considering his comments, and he's easily more knowledgeable than I. A fair argument, and I can certainly accept that. I just don't really appreciate comments like "Fantasy's win was skill, while Bisu's was just map imba." Well, given Bisu's track record of complaining about map imbalance, I can see why people would take that approach
omg gg wp.
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EPT
