EPTIt can be argued the last two seasons' protoss-friendly map pools were influenced by years of persistent complaining by a few dragons, certainly not just Bisu. This is not really any less than fair, considering some of the genuinely ridiculously anti-protoss maps in the past.
[SPL] Grand Final: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 375
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okum
France5778 Posts
It can be argued the last two seasons' protoss-friendly map pools were influenced by years of persistent complaining by a few dragons, certainly not just Bisu. This is not really any less than fair, considering some of the genuinely ridiculously anti-protoss maps in the past. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 12 2012 09:57 Kiett wrote: What exactly about the map makes you think that it was imbalanced for this particular game? Please, elaborate. I'll even help you out. Commonly cited traits of the map to support the "unfavorable for Terran" argument include the reverse ramps, difficult to hold 3rd, and the difficulty in mobilizing. So, are you saying that if the map didn't have reverse ramps, the zealots and probe wouldn't have wrecked havoc all over Flash's base? That if the main wasn't sunken, that those 4 manner pylons and 2 gas steals would have been prevented? Hell, most of the zeal/rine fighting happened outside of the base on the flat ground near the proxy location. So what, maps with level ground are now imbalanced towards protoss? lol. The 3rd's location had no bearing on the game, because after the damage was done, Flash was in no position to try and secure a 3rd. Your point relies on the assumption that Flash had planned a biomech attack to begin with, because no other Terran strategy could possibly work on such a bad map (Baby would like to say hi btw), which means Bisu automatically knows what he's doing. But that was hardly the case at all. He got forced into that position by being ridiculously behind on tech and having to make do with what he already had: 2 rax and a large number of marines from trying to fend off the zealots. Of course Bisu would know what Flash's response was going to be; he was the one that put him in that situation. Everything Bisu pulled off to get his advantage could have been done on any 2 player map. Does this make 2 player maps inherently Protoss favored? What if the situation had been reversed, and Bisu had gone 1-gate expand and died to a proxy rax bunker rush? Is it still Protoss favored? I don't think NCR is a particularly balanced map either, but simply relying on the "Terrans never come out on this map" statistic isn't enough to argue that in this particular game, the traits of the map were what screwed Flash over. Honestly, they never even got a chance to do so. He just got out-micro'd, out-multitasked, and his original build and timings were thrown off from the aggression. The only disadvantage that the map gave to Flash for this match was that he probably hadn't practiced much on it, hoping that he'd be able to avoid playing on it. This habit of blaming the map before really examining the game in question really bothers me. Was Flash beating Jaedong on Ground Zero a product of map imba, or Flash just completely mind gaming Jaedong? Did Leta's victories over Jaedong and Soulkey happen because Jade just sucks for zergs, or because Leta had actually come up with ingenious strategies to fool them both? If you're going to play that card, then Hoejja's win against Leta was also because of Outlier being anti-Terran, and not because Hoejja played a really beautiful ZvT. Don't do the winners such a disservice by dismissing the strategies and effort that were required of them to earn their wins. Actually wow, this is much better worded than I could have ever done. ;_; | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 12 2012 18:03 okum wrote: The ace match wasn't decided by the map as much as Bisu's great play (exploiting the map perfectly), but still, Flash was basically fighting uphill. With Flash's inherent skill advantage over Bisu (wink), you might even say that it made the playing field even. Contrast this with the FvF, where it seemed that Flash was plainly being wrecked by a superior player. I won't deny that the ace match turned out to be extremely exciting, though. It can be argued the last two seasons' protoss-friendly map pools were influenced by years of persistent complaining by a few dragons, certainly not just Bisu. This is not really any less than fair, considering some of the genuinely ridiculously anti-protoss maps in the past. I feel the same way, ace match stole the spotlights because of having everything on the line(and was exciting nonetheless), but they key moment in that day was definitely Flash vs Fantasy. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 12 2012 11:33 endy wrote: I simply think that if it wasn't a reverse ramp, Flash would have bunkered the natural after he deflected the 3 zealots attack and expanded. But if you don't have a gas to tech and can't expand, you really can't do anything else than 2 rax. I agree with your comment on the third base, and Bisu's unreal multitask and micro. The map was unanimously considered imbalanced. 10/15 is even stronger on NCR than on Tau Cross or Longinus. Terran must build a bunker + repair supply depots constantly under the ramp until siege upgrade. I think Flash's early scout was mainly to look for a 10/15. Meanwhile Protoss can tech or double expand. Reaver harass is quite powerful with the setup of the bases. And Bisu also showed in the first set that you can easily make a DT jump over the backdoor mineral block. SKT picked this map because they know it would be incredibly hard for Flash to play on the map. KT also thought about sending another player over Flash. Basically only Flash was confident enough to play TvP on NCR and insisted to be sent. Bisu's play was flawless, but he did have a huge mental advantage. Bisu often lacks of confidence in PvT, this map gave him this confidence, because he could harass Flash with various builds without any form of retaliation. When his proxy pylon was scouted he didn't seem like "o shit, what now ?". I mean, he didn't even try to hide the proxy gate, it's was right in the path. Bisu has done the exact same builds on normal ramp maps and been very successful with it, this is his signature style which he used to do before he somehow turned into a boneheaded macro machine. When Bisu beat Flash on Neo Medusa he again used aggressive harass play to win him the game. Whenever Bisu beat Flash, even his 3x12 nexus in WCG, he always dictated the game so that it was one of micro and multitask rather than timing/strategy, putting him in favor over Flash, just like with Savior, and I feel like he needs to do that more again to re-revolutionise his PvT. | ||
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hmmm...
632 Posts
there were so many things flash (and bisu) could have done better that any bit of map imbalance ultimately had little effect on the final outcome. for example, 1. flash could have tried to kill off the harassing probe earlier 2. flash allowed a SECOND gas steal b/c of number 1 above and prob. too busy controlling his marines 3. flash scouted the charging speed zealots late 3.5 flash didn't clearlyforesee the consequence of destroying bisu's cyber-core (that bisu could only build zealots in the mean time) 4. because of number 3, he couldn't build enough defenses in his natural in time to block the incoming zealot attack (i'm not going into the whole lack of vultures issue b/c they're both sides to that argument) and honestly, regarding number 4, if the barracks (? - don't remember) flash was building to barricade his natural entrance had a higher completion percentage and was accompanied with an extra depot, had he pulled out his scvs fast enough to rub with the zealots, i do believe he could have held it. arguing about maps can be constructive but only up to a certain point. bw's skill-ceiling is so high that in many ways, in-game details override possible map balances. sure, this map contained certain characteristics that best played to bisu's strengths : multitasking (and his race). that doesn't mean we can conclude bisu won b/c of the map. there's no way of ascertaining or proving such a claim. how many times in the past have we seen both great and mediocre players overcome supposed map-imbalances? maps matter tremendously in pro-bw but it's not an end-all be-all factor. individual skill matters tremendously too. so it's high time we chill out on this issue yall. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On April 12 2012 19:01 hmmm... wrote: + Show Spoiler + arguing bisu won b/c of the map is a waste of time. there were so many things flash (and bisu) could have done better that any bit of map imbalance ultimately had little effect on the final outcome. for example, 1. flash could have tried to kill off the harassing probe earlier 2. flash allowed a SECOND gas steal b/c of number 1 above and prob. too busy controlling his marines 3. flash scouted the charging speed zealots late 3.5 flash didn't clearlyforesee the consequence of destroying bisu's cyber-core (that bisu could only build zealots in the mean time) + Show Spoiler + 4. because of number 3, he couldn't build enough defenses in his natural in time to block the incoming zealot attack (i'm not going into the whole lack of vultures issue b/c they're both sides to that argument) and honestly, regarding number 4, if the barracks (? - don't remember) flash was building to barricade his natural entrance had a higher completion percentage and was accompanied with an extra depot, had he pulled out his scvs fast enough to rub with the zealots, i do believe he could have held it. arguing about maps can be constructive but only up to a certain point. bw's skill-ceiling is so high that in many ways, in-game details override possible map balances. sure, this map contained certain characteristics that best played to bisu's strengths : multitasking (and his race). that doesn't mean we can conclude bisu won b/c of the map. there's no way of ascertaining or proving such a claim. how many times in the past have we seen both great and mediocre players overcome supposed map-imbalances? maps matter tremendously in pro-bw but it's not an end-all be-all factor. individual skill matters tremendously too. so it's high time we chill out on this issue yall. I saw this, i stopped reading. Jesus, people .. -.- | ||
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Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
On April 12 2012 18:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: When Bisu beat Flash on Neo Medusa he again used aggressive harass play to win him the game. Whenever Bisu beat Flash, even his 3x12 nexus in WCG, he always dictated the game so that it was one of micro and multitask rather than timing/strategy, putting him in favor over Flash, just like with Savior, and I feel like he needs to do that more again to re-revolutionise his PvT. Great observation - cheesing for winning is what Bisu lacked in his OSL's runs before. I still remember a famous Flash cheezing of Bisu in 1/8 of OSL. If u can't stop or scout cheeze - u deserve to be cheezed! However Bisu's PvZ timing is as good but his other matchups timings isn't as good. Even though it's BETTER than any other Protoss could dream of  Don't try to deny it with a wimpy 20-30 game stats - I'm talking overall. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On April 12 2012 19:32 ffreakk wrote: I saw this, i stopped reading. Jesus, people .. -.- exactly. such a stupid logic. bisu could have easily started a new core during that time == | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Yo. Bisu won. Fantasy won. Flash fell on his face. Must hurt. 0-2. LOLOLOL. T1 NUMBA 1! DUH. I wish we could buy Soulkey. =( | ||
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Hero.SP
Chile711 Posts
On April 13 2012 13:06 SuperJongMan wrote: LOL. Yo. Bisu won. Fantasy won. Flash fell on his face. Must hurt. 0-2. LOLOLOL. T1 NUMBA 1! DUH. I wish we could buy Soulkey. =( Rude way to come almost a week later saying T1 won lol | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On April 13 2012 13:06 SuperJongMan wrote: LOL. Yo. Bisu won. Fantasy won. Flash fell on his face. Must hurt. 0-2. LOLOLOL. T1 NUMBA 1! DUH. I wish we could buy Soulkey. =( I think we've ruined enough Zerg careers, let's not ruin SK's. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 13 2012 16:30 Mobius_1 wrote: I think we've ruined enough Zerg careers, let's not ruin SK's. Meh I'd be willing to sacrifice his career for another SKT win, but then again I've never really liked zergs so I'm probably a bit biased :p | ||
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BobLobIaw
Oman142 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On April 12 2012 18:03 okum wrote: The ace match wasn't decided by the map as much as Bisu's great play (exploiting the map perfectly), but still, Flash was basically fighting uphill. With Flash's inherent skill advantage over Bisu (wink), you might even say that it made the playing field even. Contrast this with the FvF, where it seemed that Flash was plainly being wrecked by a superior player. I won't deny that the ace match turned out to be extremely exciting, though. It can be argued the last two seasons' protoss-friendly map pools were influenced by years of persistent complaining by a few dragons, certainly not just Bisu. This is not really any less than fair, considering some of the genuinely ridiculously anti-protoss maps in the past. You can't just point at the map and say Flash was fighting uphill. There are so many other factors, like condition of the players, their practice amount, luck, the pressure of the moment, etc. I could just as say TvP at S-class level slightly favors Terran, so Bisu was fighting uphill. But see? I'm just trying to justify why the loser lost, but in reality the better player won today. I'm not saying Bisu is better than Flash, I'm just saying he was a better player THAT day. | ||
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popzags
Poland604 Posts
It seemed like Flash had significant advantage out of the opening - that proxy and Zealots costed Bisu buttload of cash and accomplished nothing. But then, Terran made a decision to crash through that narrow backdoor high ground and instead of getting to Probes and resource supplies. As a result, he only killed Core and some other building (or two, not sure), wasting quite a lot of time by sealing himself into that tight ridge. And then, out of nowhere, pack of Zealots ran right into Flash's base, no Mines, no walls, nothing. Suprisisngly unclutch defense by Flash, when his Tanks sucessfully eliminated all his SCVs with friendly fire. The game was overall entertaining but I could literally see the pressure and nervousness in both guys' play. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On April 13 2012 17:53 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: Meh I'd be willing to sacrifice his career for another SKT win, but then again I've never really liked zergs so I'm probably a bit biased :p Fuck this shit. I miss Kwanro. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
Who doesn't?! <3 Kwanro <3 | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36999 Posts
If the playoffs are bo3 series...... why is the grand finals only 1? | ||
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rslee
Canada226 Posts
On April 12 2012 15:15 MaRiNe23 wrote: How on earth are u going to take a quick natural when there's a proxy gate outside ur base?! The zealot was alrdy nearing his base when his FIRST marine came out................ .Even if he quickly made a bunker at his nat, there's only one marine inside...he can just run by that and walk into flash's main. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what u mean by fast expo and if I did I apologize. Do u mean 1 rax fe or 1 fax fe? Or do u mean after he fends off the wave of zeals and gets up that reversible ramp? Cuz that's what flash did. After he got up the ramp, he expanded but i wouldn't call that a "fast expand" I think flash's gameplan was to first find a way to stop that proxy gate and go from there and I have evidence to support this. First, he sent his scv before his depot was even done. Bisu blatantly built the proxy gate in the normal scouting path and doesn't even try to hide it. Clearly bisu knows that this is a strong strat for this map and flash knows bisu is gonna do it and just wants to confirm it by sending the scv before the first depot is even done. I mean even the announcers comment on how it's a common and strong strat on this map and even if terran's block it well, they still gain no advantage from doing so. That's why I think his gameplan was to first do something about the proxy. <-----now from here on I can't really say for certain cuz it's really up to the player whether to do a 2 rax all in scv/marine cheese after getting up the ramp and killin that proxy gate(then toss will be one gate less)and punishing him if he did a really fast expo or just doing like he did and doing a MnM transition or just lift both rax and make facts and do mech only. But I do agree with: "Flash played well, but he did get out-microed/mind-gamed at a few instances, couldn't overcome map disadvantages and lost" <------this is worded much better than what I implied in my post thank u. Like you said, Flash sent his SCV out before his depot was done. Fact, Flash has done a handful of proxy barracks this season alone. As long as we are stating our "knowledge" of Flash's game plan (which, until Flash says it himself, is all speculation), I believe Flash was going to build his own barracks to kill a 12 nex. Bisu has done a 12nex on 2 player maps before against Flash and so it is a possibility. His barracks didn't start until he saw the proxy gateway. And the timing he reached the middle of the map (where the gateway was) is pretty close to perfect timing for a barracks. Another reason I believe he was going for his own proxy, is because like you said, Bisu didn't even try to hide his gateway. But at the same time, Flash didn't even check anywhere else along his scouting path to find possible gateways. There's a game where Flash started scouting 1 from 5 and half way decided to turn around and found a proxy gateway. And in the postgame interview, he said that that was a popular place during practice to hide proxies so he decided to check. Given that, if we were only checking for a proxy, I think he would have checked other areas first on his way to the middle. Like near his third would work because from 9, there is a backdoor to that area. And by quick natural, I think he means the fastest CC he could get given the situation. | ||
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shaftofpleasure
Korea (North)1375 Posts
On April 13 2012 19:57 SeeKeR wrote: I'm confused..... like.... SUPER CONFUSED...... If the playoffs are bo3 series...... why is the grand finals only 1? They used to have that kind of format but was dumped because of how few people would watch the first and second set. The last Bo3 Format was between SKT1 and Oz. | ||
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