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On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response.
You can't "respond" to 14cc with Effort's build. You might as well respond to it with a 4 pool. Effort's build was something like 12 hatch 12 gas 11 pool, which gets ling speed 10-20 seconds earlier than usual, which is why it worked.
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On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response.
Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg).
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On August 28 2010 21:14 alffla wrote:
hope next seasons maps are FS luna python and tau cross. lols
Lost temple for 5th
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On August 27 2010 16:34 flamewheel wrote:riptide I am not pleased.
hahaha great analogy... Flash is indeed Goku. JD is Vegeta. Vegeta is ultimately more cooler and was Tyrant of his planet but Flash is now here. Plus Flash is definitely over 9000.
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I miss Outsider. Or was that MSL? I can't remember. Either way, that map made some absolutely fantastic games.
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On August 28 2010 21:11 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:01 Djin)ftw( wrote:On August 28 2010 20:57 krndandaman wrote:On August 28 2010 20:55 Sadistx wrote:On August 28 2010 20:54 Garrl wrote:On August 28 2010 20:51 PaD wrote:On August 28 2010 20:49 miNix wrote:On August 28 2010 20:48 DarkMatter_ wrote:
So basically Flash can't beat Jaedong in a standard game and needs to go 14CC to win. +99999999 without 14 cc all in no chance versus jaedong... You do know a standard game is the 14 CC and not cheese and all ins ? you must be new to starcraft... Flash is one of the best players ever and he should get the respect he deserves. 14cc is kind of econ-cheesing. Econ-cheesing is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. yes there is. 3hatch before pool 14 cc 14 nex those are econ cheeses. i'd say pretty much an economic build which has a hard counter insta-loss build would be an econ cheese. User was warned for this post that is stupid. 4 pool is also a hard counter to 12 hatch in zvz, so 12 hatch isecon cheese? 1 rax cc is econ cheese against 4 pool? jesus dude, seriously not really, but i would put 12hatch as borderline... if you asked me a little further back when we didnt have these huge ass 4player maps and all, i would've said yes. 12hatch is really risky, has potential to die to all builds instantly other than overgas/12pool/12hatch. 1rax cc is actually not the counter against 4pool, its 2rax. edit: ah nvm, found a better word for it. greedy build. economic cheese sounds a bit too harsh/strong, i think calling these builds greedy economic builds would be better. liquipedia helped me out "12 Hatch in Zerg vs. Zerg is considered to be one of the more risky strategies in modern ZvZ. This build is greedy and aims to obtain up an early economic advantage with a significantly faster second Hatchery."
€: ah ok i saw u edited it. nvm then
... my point is, it is stupid to call a build "econ cheese" based on the criteria that there is a rush possible who beats it. 1 gate core gets beaten by bbs + bunker. so is this build an "econ" or "tech cheese"? t.t
the inflationary use of the term "cheese" is just ridiculous. There are econ heavy builds and there are unit heavy openings (rushes). Saying 14 cc is econ cheese getting ownd by 9pool cheese is just stupid. What is cheese then? 9pool can't be cheese cause it's a good counter.
I hope you get my point
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 28 2010 21:14 DreXxiN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 alffla wrote:
hope next seasons maps are FS luna python and tau cross. lols Lost temple for 5th
no man cliffs are lame. haha ok i better stop thinking about jaedongs loss now T_T combined with kentors zelda music makes me sad ;---;
good gamesss nonetheless. wish jaedong played more like effort though heh
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FUUUUUUUU... missed all games..... but glad it reached the 5th set.... awesomeness : D D D D D D
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On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg).
I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting.
It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game.
I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e.
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On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e.
lol like 99% of the maps created are like that so i dunno what u want the map makers to do. they need to think of of zvp and pvt too, so it isn't that simple.
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On August 28 2010 21:16 Wings wrote:hahaha great analogy... Flash is indeed Goku. JD is Vegeta. Vegeta is ultimately more cooler and was Tyrant of his planet but Flash is now here. Plus Flash is definitely over 9000.
This is oddly fitting.
JD used to have the upper hand.
BUT NOW FLASH HAS KAIOKEN + Show Spoiler +
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On August 28 2010 21:16 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
I miss Outsider. Or was that MSL? I can't remember. Either way, that map made some absolutely fantastic games.
Best map of the 08-09 PL season and any starleagues during it's era of usage. They should really bring it back.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e.
haha 4 hatch before pool? would lair tech be too late..? would be insane to see though lol.
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On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e.
blame bisu for that
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 28 2010 21:20 Vivi57 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e. blame bisu for that
how is bisu to blame for wallins? terrans have been walling in since lost temple was around
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On August 28 2010 21:21 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:20 Vivi57 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e. blame bisu for that how is bisu to blame for wallins? terrans have been walling in since lost temple was around
Any map that lets p make a FE wallin (aka all of them since the "bisu build" was made) lets t wallin too.
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Forget the finals, this LR thread is EPIC! So much tension!! 
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On August 28 2010 21:18 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 Pvvned wrote:On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response. Zerglings seem to be about the only viable response out there to end it in the early game. Anything else will just get raped in the mid/late-game (barring mishaps from the terran or absolute perfect execution from the zerg). I don't think the problem is or ever was 14CC, with or without scouting. It's the maps that allow Terran a perfect wall-in with 2 depots and a barracks. On such a map, Terran doesn't need any defense for the first five minutes of the game. I still want to see JD drone scout --> 4 hatch before pool against Flash's scout --> 14 CC, but w/e.
4 hatch before pool would be impossible to hold since you'd be droning up hardcore and allowing the terran to amass a huge army before your economy gets a chance to kick in.
3 hatch before pool seems to be the thinnest line you can walk and even then you can still lose with bad execution.
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On August 28 2010 21:16 Wings wrote:hahaha great analogy... Flash is indeed Goku. JD is Vegeta. Vegeta is ultimately more cooler and was Tyrant of his planet but Flash is now here. Plus Flash is definitely over 9000.
I think its because flamewheels posts are over 9000 :\
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EPT![[image loading]](http://monstervine.com/wp-content/2009/01/over9000.jpg)
