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On August 28 2010 21:04 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:01 deafhobbit wrote:
Gratz Flash, i was rooting for you, but with the map pool i wasn't exactly surprised when you pulled out the win.
@14cc haters
Take note, in rounds 1 and 2, flash delayed his cc to scout JD's 12 hatch. Had JD gone for a more aggressive build flash likely wouldn't have 14cc'd. At the same time, since flash does this so often, the scout timing should have suggested to JD that flash was 14ccing.
In rounds 4 and 5, flash did a blind 14cc. This got the cc started faster, and denied JD information, but left him vulnerable to JD's 9 pool in round 4. In both games, it was a calculated risk, and it only had to pay off once for Flash to win.
Moral of the story - Don't hate on the 14cc, hate JD's inability to deal with it, specifically his refusal to shift to more aggressive play in rounds 1 and especially 2 when flash telegraphed him his build. Game 4 wasn't blind 14cc. Game 5 was the only one. Game 4 was the usual supply depot -> scout. Saw the pool, put up a rax, and then tried to wall off with a CC and supply. Didn't work great, but he held it off (though he lost lots of scvs). Then he floated his rax for some reason before putting down a bunker and it was gg.
I think he thought JD would go full econ with 3 hatches and drones after getting a lead with the initial lings. Instead of a bunker he also put down a refinery so he had the cash to do it. Pretty much only explanation I can think of. JD got the right read in this game.
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Well, this is definitely not a disappointing finals. Not to the degree of a grandiose, mind-blowing, jaw-dropping bloody battle but still, 3-2 with top-notch play from both (and some silly moments as well). Satisfied 
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On August 28 2010 21:01 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 20:58 letian wrote:
Well... JD I wish you were more smart and flexible this time, bad games overall, or maybe it is Flash that is so good, but still, yes now I see , that he is way too strong for Jae to cope, dunno maps, 14cc, imba terran, this is all chit, I didn't like the way Jae played, it was sloppy and there was nothing he could do today, he was defeated, Oh I a really do want a change, I'm tired of terrans for the whole fu..ing year, but I do not see anybody who can challenge Flash at this level of his play I guess when you say you're tired of Terran you mean you're tired of Flash. Because, with exception of this MSL, Terrans hasn't been doing well. The only Terran to reach semis in OSL for last 3 seasons is Flash. Same goes for the last 2 MSLs before this one.
well I meant not Flash, no offence, its ok, cause he really is stronger now, I meant all these maps ... well I just checked Kespa 20 top, and well its quite ok, then maybe I'm just exaggerating, just I'm sad for JD loss
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On August 28 2010 20:50 Dante08 wrote:
Can someone explain to me how that map affected game 5?
It didn't. It's a mechable map, and when someone mechs and turtles hardcore they're basically unbeatable. But since Flash went bio, the only influence is that JD may have gambled that Flash would try and mech and ended up overextending himself.
I just think that he relied too much on the mutas to slow down Flash's marines (and despite what everyone says, he pulled out after the marines stopped or went back - and therefor did their job perfectly, as going head-first into stimmed marines would just make the next wave have a free march), and hoping that his lurkers could hold things off. Of course, Flash just went 6 frickin' rax and showed his patented perfect control. I think JD slipped up a bit on his lurker positioning (again, not that any other Zerg would have a right to complain about the level of control and multitasking JD showed there), and that's the edge Flash had, not the map.
... and anyways, JD is gonna practice 24/7 for the OSL with his fury pushing him to new heights, and so will Flash. Which might make it an even greater show of skill and determination. I can't wait.
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5930 Posts
On August 28 2010 21:06 Assymptotic wrote:
When did the term fast expanding become replaced by econ-cheese?
Yeesh.
The same way "mindgames" and "metagame" evolved into some bastard word that is essentially meaningless. People keep using it and the definitions just become more and more lax and broad.
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This series was so close, you might as well give both of them a trophy. 19-20 overall says it all really. Glad we got such an awesome series and can hope for even more epicness. Flashs mindgames (game1,2) and JDs mental strength (comeback from 0-2)... unbelieveable.
Ps. "imba-cheese" kids get out- this is a 10 year old game, you'd figure imbalances have disappeared after such a long time ? Or maybe those hundreds of thousands players of the past decade aren't as smart as you...
Also: dumb MSL maps :D
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On August 28 2010 21:01 deafhobbit wrote:
Gratz Flash, i was rooting for you, but with the map pool i wasn't exactly surprised when you pulled out the win.
@14cc haters
Take note, in rounds 1 and 2, flash delayed his cc to scout JD's 12 hatch. Had JD gone for a more aggressive build flash likely wouldn't have 14cc'd. At the same time, since flash does this so often, the scout timing should have suggested to JD that flash was 14ccing.
In rounds 4 and 5, flash did a blind 14cc. This got the cc started faster, and denied JD information, but left him vulnerable to JD's 9 pool in round 4. In both games, it was a calculated risk, and it only had to pay off once for Flash to win.
Moral of the story - Don't hate on the 14cc, hate JD's inability to deal with it, specifically his refusal to shift to more aggressive play in rounds 1 and especially 2 when flash telegraphed him his build.
Round 4 wasn't blind at all.
Anyway, Flash's 14cc has a plan against anything except 4/5 pool. So it's a small risk high reward build, and I don't blame Flash for taking advantage of that. What I hate instead are two player maps that accommodate a ling-tight wall at the nat.
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On August 28 2010 21:02 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 20:53 lebalebaleba wrote:On August 28 2010 20:52 Hyperionnn wrote:
i love how people saying 14 cc=cheese, you guys are so stupid that it gives me pain what is it? standard? if jd 9pooled in game 5 he would've instantly won. flash didnt even scout AT ALL. he would've had to hold off lings with just SCV's. That also bothered me a bit. Jaedongs pool finished way before the scout arrived in his main. If he had skipped one drone and built 2 lings a litte bit early, he could have blocked his ramp and Flash would have been in the dark for a bit longer (he would have needed to consider normal 3hatch or a lurker opening). Flash could easily guess the muta build and he built this really early ebay. Flashs build in game 5 was flawless. Still, I think JD needs to do way more pool first builds. MSL Ranking
1.terran
2.zerg
3.terran
4.terran
5-8 terran ?
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so this win means Flash is back on top of PR next month right?
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On August 28 2010 21:08 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:01 Lebesgue wrote:On August 28 2010 20:58 letian wrote:
Well... JD I wish you were more smart and flexible this time, bad games overall, or maybe it is Flash that is so good, but still, yes now I see , that he is way too strong for Jae to cope, dunno maps, 14cc, imba terran, this is all chit, I didn't like the way Jae played, it was sloppy and there was nothing he could do today, he was defeated, Oh I a really do want a change, I'm tired of terrans for the whole fu..ing year, but I do not see anybody who can challenge Flash at this level of his play I guess when you say you're tired of Terran you mean you're tired of Flash. Because, with exception of this MSL, Terrans hasn't been doing well. The only Terran to reach semis in OSL for last 3 seasons is Flash. Same goes for the last 2 MSLs before this one. well I meant not Flash, no offence, its ok, cause he really is stronger now, I meant all these maps ... well I just checked Kespa 20 top, and well its quite ok, then maybe I'm just exaggerating, just I'm sad for JD loss
They really need to get rid of Odd-Eye already, dunno why it's still here.
PR they won't get rid of cause it's a good map for P, unfortunately no P were alive long enough to take advantage of them.
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Amazing series man, really hope MSL doesn't end up dying because of some Activision SC2 shit.
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On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg.
Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response.
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On August 28 2010 21:06 link18 wrote:
Brood War is fucking art.....
An emphatic amen to that.
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YES FLASH. YES YES YES.
But I still hold the highest respect for JD. JD is Bonjwa, so is Flash. The two greatest players in history deserve at least that.
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On August 28 2010 21:10 Noxide wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:08 letian wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 Lebesgue wrote:On August 28 2010 20:58 letian wrote:
Well... JD I wish you were more smart and flexible this time, bad games overall, or maybe it is Flash that is so good, but still, yes now I see , that he is way too strong for Jae to cope, dunno maps, 14cc, imba terran, this is all chit, I didn't like the way Jae played, it was sloppy and there was nothing he could do today, he was defeated, Oh I a really do want a change, I'm tired of terrans for the whole fu..ing year, but I do not see anybody who can challenge Flash at this level of his play I guess when you say you're tired of Terran you mean you're tired of Flash. Because, with exception of this MSL, Terrans hasn't been doing well. The only Terran to reach semis in OSL for last 3 seasons is Flash. Same goes for the last 2 MSLs before this one. well I meant not Flash, no offence, its ok, cause he really is stronger now, I meant all these maps ... well I just checked Kespa 20 top, and well its quite ok, then maybe I'm just exaggerating, just I'm sad for JD loss They really need to get rid of Odd-Eye already, dunno why it's still here. PR they won't get rid of cause it's a good map for P, unfortunately no P were alive long enough to take advantage of them.
I guess odd eye is the odd one out, *rim-shot* ahaha-ha-ha...ha.
<.<
sorry.
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On August 28 2010 21:11 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:02 Goragoth wrote:
If anyone has any example games of 12hat winning against 14cc (excluding aggressive zergling all-in followups like EffOrt did in the OSL final) I would be very interested to see some VODs. It really looks like it is virtually impossible because Terran ends up with such a strong early mid-game push off two bases that seems unstoppable for Zerg. Except i think efforts play in that OSL was the perfect response. I don't think committing to a kill attempt is necessary, but spamming zerglings to punish the 14cc seems like a solid response.
Only if terran doesn't wall-in, but Flash did.
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On August 28 2010 21:05 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:04 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:04 alffla wrote:
KENTOR YOUR ZELDA MUSIC MAKES ME FEEL SO SAD T_____T Hahaha yeah ^^. Relaxing before sleep though! i'm in asia... still got a few hours to go before i can go sleep.. gonna go cry in the rain now T______T (j/k no rain. but i'm still sad. D: )
wts rain
it's stormy around here, been raining since morning 
Flash cheated.
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On August 28 2010 21:09 miNix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:02 Malinor wrote:On August 28 2010 20:53 lebalebaleba wrote:On August 28 2010 20:52 Hyperionnn wrote:
i love how people saying 14 cc=cheese, you guys are so stupid that it gives me pain what is it? standard? if jd 9pooled in game 5 he would've instantly won. flash didnt even scout AT ALL. he would've had to hold off lings with just SCV's. That also bothered me a bit. Jaedongs pool finished way before the scout arrived in his main. If he had skipped one drone and built 2 lings a litte bit early, he could have blocked his ramp and Flash would have been in the dark for a bit longer (he would have needed to consider normal 3hatch or a lurker opening). Flash could easily guess the muta build and he built this really early ebay. Flashs build in game 5 was flawless. Still, I think JD needs to do way more pool first builds. MSL Ranking 1.terran 2.zerg 3.terran 4.terran 5-8 terran ?
They should apologize for playing that race.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
hope next seasons maps are FS luna python and tau cross. lols
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EPT
