|
Flash vs Effort was on such another level than this game. It just makes their mistakes seem more bad.
|
On July 01 2010 18:36 I_Love_Bacon wrote:I would imagine to hit any wraiths so if he researched cloak for them the scourge can still land.
too bad he saced his scourges on the vessels then :<
|
On July 01 2010 18:35 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 18:30 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:On July 01 2010 18:25 darktreb wrote:On July 01 2010 18:15 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote:The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong  Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game. I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means. I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game). Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed. Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly). But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed. What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured). Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result. If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push. Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter.
Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
|
United States13896 Posts
I can't believe s2 is letting Classic back into this game. Such poor use of having hive tech out for sooooooooo long + being at a major economic advantage.
|
On July 01 2010 18:31 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 18:25 darktreb wrote:On July 01 2010 18:15 Yggdrasil Leaf wrote:On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote:The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game. I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means. I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game). Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed. Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly). But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed. What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured). Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result. I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up. The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely. That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
Going 1rax CC was not the problem, it was getting duped into thinking 2h lurker was on the way. The extra time Effort got to secure his third and power drone was pretty clear throughout as shown by the much later vessels and attack. Not once did effort feel threatened by Flash's force since he only built 1 sunken. Overall brilliant mind game by Effort and superb late game management.
|
hey s2, firebats + medics > mass zling, kk?
|
lawl. 5 firebats and a medic > 20 zerglings
|
|
|
s2 starting to play very sloppy now. Forgets lurkers at the ramp at new expo twice
|
agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
|
s2 also hates plague it seems. There were already 10+ perfect spots to plague large armies and he just throws down random swarm for his 10 lings
|
and here I was, thinking an SKT zerg could be actually good acording to PL results..
|
|
|
nice plague catches a bunch of mnm. classic also leaves like 5-6 medics behind healing eachother while they get raped by cracklings
|
On July 01 2010 18:36 sixfour wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 18:19 akisa wrote:
I'm just waiting for the cries of "FLASH SLUMP" and whatnot. If he loses the final game I think there's legitimate cause to say that. Obviously a slumping Flash > 90% of progamers, but still
If Flash gets things together soon (including winning the last game tonight) he should be ok. If you're going to play worse than usual for a month, the qualifiers month right after you were in both finals with your team having a huge PL lead is definitely the one to do it.
Say Flash gets back to his old self (he definitely has not been bringing his A game with the regularity that he used to) soon. Then it's just like all the times Jaedong had a so-so month after dominating individual leagues, and not a problem at all. But if this extends for much longer, then it could be costly (for PL finals and/or individuals)
|
France2061 Posts
s2 is still nicely ahead, I don't see any reason to worry for him.
|
|
|
|
|
United States13896 Posts
Finally ultras are out so s2 can just attack move to victory.
|
s2 with ultras out now. classic pushing the bottom left natural, but s2 reinforces and holds. classics 3rd forced to lift and
LOL BM plague on SCVs
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
