I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.

I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).

Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.

Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).

But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.

What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).

Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.

If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.

Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.

Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter.
Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.

Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.

It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.

SmiLeSE

Sweden58 Posts

July 01 2010 09:44 GMT

#394

s2 had a really sloppy late game, I felt. Don't think it will be enough to take on Flash.

khellian

Korea (South)922 Posts

July 01 2010 09:44 GMT

#395

GG s2, now do the "impossible" and beat Flash too, please! ^_^

letian

Germany4221 Posts

July 01 2010 09:45 GMT

#396

easy for Flash, another rape I must hope)))

smileyyy

Germany1816 Posts

July 01 2010 09:45 GMT

#397

I bet 1$ we will see a 5Pool :>

I_Love_Bacon

United States5765 Posts

July 01 2010 09:46 GMT

#398

Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.

InRaged

1047 Posts

July 01 2010 09:47 GMT

#399

On July 01 2010 18:39 scrubtastic wrote:
agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.

Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.

Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin

What outexpanding are you talking about? Zergs outexpand only when they play against mech turtle. 4 gases is all you need to fight bio terran and getting them for a good 5 minutes before terran gets his 3rd (and when on top of that terran is very low on vessels count) is an insta GG.

darktreb

United States3016 Posts

July 01 2010 09:47 GMT

#400

On July 01 2010 18:42 okum wrote:
Apparently a "metagame shift" is only needed to beat Flash... that was just the usual ZvT.

Did I ever say it was needed? When else has a Zerg played like this going into late game against Terran? Look at Calm vs Flash from the OSL semi-finals again, how big an edge Calm has going into lategame, and how Flash is able to claw his way back into it. Compare that to this game (where Flash was less behind than he was against Calm in my opinion).

Flash hasn't been playing up to his standard lately and this game was no exception. It was not like he played perfectly but it wasn't like he played poorly either. I'm definitely not trying to claim that you need something as significant as a metagame shift to beat Flash, especially the way he's playing right now....