On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up.
The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely.
That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up.
The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely.
That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
The opening wasn't good for Flash but if Effort doesn't break him at that timing suddenly it's 4 base vs 4. I'm saying that if Effort passively tries to counterexpand to extend his economic advantage, instead of cashing in his early economic advantage, he still loses. That's why it was significant.
Yes, it's true that Effort's early edge made this followup possible. But it doesn't change the fact that other Zergs have done a poor job translating their early economic leads against Terran into wins, because they blindly try to just keep outexpanding Terran instead of hitting the broad timing where Terran can't actually hold 3 different locations (exploitable if you get drop).
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable. There are plenty of ways to stop it and what Effort did was just one of them.
The key is that Effort translated an advantage into a win, something that Zergs have not been good at doing against Terran in general, thanks to the Tank transition.
EPT
