Flash is without a doubt the best Starcraft player right now, and a huge favorite to win the MSL. He has no weak matchups. He's gone on double-digit win streaks in TvT and TvZ, and took out nearly every Protoss teams could throw at him in Winner's League. The last time a finals not involving him was held was last August. Although he has been slumping in proleague, going 1-6 in his last 7 ace matches, 5 of those losses were against Terrans, and the only Terran in his group is...
Classic is a new Terran player for eSTRO who made his way onto their A-team following the retirements of UpMaGiC and SangHo. He has a solid record of 10-5 in televised games, although his only notable win was using M&M as well as firebats to defeat BeSt on Tornado last fall. [VOD] With big names like Flash and EffOrt in the group, it would be an upset if Classic made it out.
EffOrt is the defending OSL champion who defeated Flash in an epic 3-2 comeback. Flash responded by picking EffOrt into his MSL round of 32 group in an attempt to get a revenge win. While EffOrt has a nearly 75% win rate against Protoss, he never gets any Protoss in his groups and as such rarely advances from individual leagues. His ZvT and ZvZ matchups are very inconsistent. If he brings his best play, he could advance 2-0, and if he brings his worst, he could be eliminated 0-2.
s2 was the number four overall draft for SK Telecom T1 in an attempt to revive their Zerg lineup, drafted ahead of hero, great, and ZerO. For the most part, s2 has delivered 3 years of mediocrity, although he has shown signs of improvement lately with wins against sKyHigh, Stork, and Leta. This is a tough group for even a slightly improved s2, and even a ZvZ coinflip upset against Effort will leave him one win short of making the round of 16.
I want Flash to go 0-2, that would be pretty huge upset! And oh imagine if BOTH Flash and Jaedong got knocked out on the same day. Then ANYONE can take the MSL!
I'm getting a feeling that there will be an upset tonight... Perhaps Flash or Effort. I'm hoping for Flash to cross into Ro16, as well as Effort, but anything can happen.
(Vote): KT fan, rooting for Flash (Vote): CJ fan, rooting for Effort (Vote): Other fan, rooting for Flash (Vote): Other fan, rooting for Effort (Vote): Rooting for s2 or Classic (Vote): KT or CJ fan rooting for the other side
For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
i was so depressed
its Nadal's wimbledon to lose
Haha, I'm kind of thinking Soderling is going to beat Nadal in retaliation for what happened at the French... Just has to abuse that serve of his on fast grass.
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
i was so depressed
its Nadal's wimbledon to lose
Haha, I'm kind of thinking Soderling is going to beat Nadal in retaliation for what happened at the French... Just has to abuse that serve of his on fast grass.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but they already played...
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
i was so depressed
its Nadal's wimbledon to lose
Haha, I'm kind of thinking Soderling is going to beat Nadal in retaliation for what happened at the French... Just has to abuse that serve of his on fast grass.
true but i feel like Nadal's in prime shape. and a big serve doesnt equate victory on grass roddick's out already and he's got the biggest serve. isner also struggled a bit.
Nadal's court coverage i think will give him the wimbledon he's too quick when he's on his game
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
i was so depressed
its Nadal's wimbledon to lose
Haha, I'm kind of thinking Soderling is going to beat Nadal in retaliation for what happened at the French... Just has to abuse that serve of his on fast grass.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but they already played...
yah. Nadal already in semi's
Nadal beat Soderling 3 sets to 1 dropping the first set Murray, Berdych and Djokovich are also in the semi's
Oh shit... The night that I was planning on going to bed early because I have to get up early tomorrow... Now I think I'll nap and catch this group. :< I'll post later if I'm streaming~
On July 01 2010 10:55 flamewheel wrote: For some reason, seeing Roger Federer lose to Berdych has made me think that there will be an upset... Not really feeling both Flash and EffOrt getting through--one will, but then the other spot will be snagged by either Classic or s2.
Who knows, anything could happen.
More excited for Jaedong's group since I like Jaedong, but this group should produce some better games, I hope.
i was so depressed
its Nadal's wimbledon to lose
Haha, I'm kind of thinking Soderling is going to beat Nadal in retaliation for what happened at the French... Just has to abuse that serve of his on fast grass.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but they already played...
For some reason I feel like S2 has a better shot at beating flash right now. I think Flash will drop one game. Right now no one seems invincible at all.
On July 01 2010 14:18 ]343[ wrote: flash 2-0 effort 2-1.
@serpico: jaedong?
jalstar: do you have a link to that draft?
I dont think jaedong is invincible. I just dont feel like he makes top players fear him. Which is good, because then he'd have a monopoly over the whole BW scene.
I hope Flash and Jaedong get knocked out tonight. They are destined to never have a descent final against each other again. It'll also mean the ro16/8/4 will be a hell of a lot more interesting.
Flash secures his backdoor expo and begins to lay turrets down there. Flash's tanks also destroying eggs on the way to 6.5 whree Classic has a few tanks/goliaths still stationed but is unable to reinforce.
Flash's tanks move in from the right, CC is forced to lift.
I honestly have no idea why Classic is still trying. Anyone who's ever played TvT at least once in their life can tell you it's nearly impossible to win in this scenario.
Classic breaks out of the contain with troops moving out of 10 and dropships.
Flash seeing this moves his own troops in the dropships on to 10 oclock that is now empty of defenses, once again leaving Classic with troops stranded away from the rest of his bases.
Classic lifts his nat cc now, leaving only his main CC intact on the ground. Classic attempts to move out of the nat with his forces but realizes he cant.
On July 01 2010 17:22 moopie wrote: Classic breaks out of the contain with troops moving out of 10 and dropships.
Flash seeing this moves his own troops in the dropships on to 10 oclock that is now empty of defenses, once again leaving Classic with troops stranded away from the rest of his bases.
Classic: I'm moving out now! Flash: Alright, but give me all your dropships.
On July 01 2010 17:25 InFdude wrote: Ahh Classic why didn't you make valks when it was 3 base vs 2 2-3 valks and Classic had this.
I can see why a Jaedong fan would suggest this. But the truth is... valks aren't mutas.
Yeah, but they're great for anti-wraith.
On July 01 2010 17:27 Severedevil wrote: What the hell happened that game? Classic expanded first but never had any units, and then got contained and lost pathetically. I'm so confused...
Did Flash just outmacro him?
Classic got contained before he could use his economic advantage.
On July 01 2010 17:27 Severedevil wrote: What the hell happened that game? Classic expanded first but never had any units, and then got contained and lost pathetically. I'm so confused...
On July 01 2010 17:27 Severedevil wrote: What the hell happened that game? Classic expanded first but never had any units, and then got contained and lost pathetically. I'm so confused...
Did Flash just outmacro him?
They both expanded at pretty much the same times (Classic in his backdoor and then nat, and Flash at his nat and then 2 oclock). Flash was being very aggressive, set up a very tight contain and along with the wraiths, just didn't let Classic out. The reason it seemed that Classic didn't have an army was that every time he tried to move out, whether on foot or with dropships he immediately lost his forces and/or dropships. Flash easily outmacrod him at that point.
On July 01 2010 17:25 InFdude wrote: Ahh Classic why didn't you make valks when it was 3 base vs 2 2-3 valks and Classic had this.
I can see why a Jaedong fan would suggest this. But the truth is... valks aren't mutas.
Yeah I see your point valks aren't as good as mutas vs wraith . Oh w8 I don't see your point .
With his faster third, Classic needed to pump ground units just to secure his natural. Valks are expensive and don't attack ground. He couldn't afford valks until about the time he got dropships, and then, well, he desperately needed the dropships.
Also, with proper micro, cloaked wraiths can snipe valks.
On July 01 2010 17:36 Shatter wrote: I'm pretty sure I've seen Effort do the hide the hatch strat in that exact spot on this map before. Can't think of the game though.
Probably, Calm did it as well iirc, won the game, don't remember who it was against though.
EffOrt committed too early with a zergling force, and got wrecked, but he was able to delay with a few remaining lings and snipe a drone (or two?). s2 was forced to spend larva on zerglings, while EffOrt got quickly to mutalisks. s2 threw away his zerglings with piecemeal attacks that usually got cleaned up by EffOrt's mutalisks before the reached the base. Meanwhile, EffOrt pressed his air advantage, sniped a few overlords, drones, lings, and scourge. Won the final micro/multitask battle by a mile.
Hope we see a real solid game and not some quick allin... which would be my guess as to the probable direction of the game. I can hope though. Crossing my fingers.
Effort with some ling harass, stopped flash from mining in his nat for a bit, then ran 2 lings into the main which died almost immediately. Effort with a 3rd at 1 oclock.
Wow effort with sick harass on the 2 expos, and then dropping the main and then following that up with ultra/ling drop since one defiler was still alive I think.
Flash didn't damage the economy at all; he was forced to turn back at the third and nat because of the swarm.
Ok I guess Effort didn't need the popped collar after all. I was ready to say I WARNED YOU ABOUT STAIRS BRO I TOLD YOU DOG but he rose to the occasion in a way that a collar never could.
On July 01 2010 18:09 De4ngus wrote: GG Holy shit. how do you beat a terran on even bases like that WTFFFFF Flash had complete map control too.
Yeah, Flash had total map control and was transitioning to his "kill everything with vessels" phase while turtling on four bases, a strategy that seems to allow him to come back from any disadvantage, but Effort's drop was a great way to use his econ advantage in a decisive way and punish Flash for overextending before he could catch up.
The Slow Moving Elevator Drop of Death claims yet another victim.
Ah, that was such a great game. Great mindgames from EffOrt at the beginning, great control from Flash to constantly threaten EffOrt, and some excellent unorthodox play from the alien to win. Those two are so fun to watch.
On July 01 2010 18:12 Holgerius wrote: I predict Flash getting knocked out due to cheese.
Hope not. Some combination of Jaedong/fantasy/Flash/EffOrt in both league finals, please!
wow. That was an amazing game by effort. That early third and drone transfer to fake an all-in lurker build to force 2 extra bunkers and slightly exteneded map control was such a slick move. The FPV of Flash later on showed that he was still blind to that early third, and that economic advantage just kept snowballing. Effort defended all of Flash's normal timed attacks with such ease it was amazing.
And of course, that 3 pronged attack at basically all of Flash's expansions was just so so sick as well.
Absolutely brilliant play by Effort. Fake 2h lurker into heavily saturated 3base lurk/ling with early darkswarm completely destroyed Flash. This game really highlighted the power of effort's management and cunning.
On July 01 2010 18:12 rainei wrote: And of course, that 3 pronged attack at basically all of Flash's expansions was just so so sick as well.
Yeah, this. Everyone is going off about how Flash had map control and Effort just did a drop at the right time but he was harassing pretty well and all Flash was doing was putting some pressure on his frontier areas.
Damn, the ove with the 3 defilers in it flew just over a bunch of marines and turrets but still managed to drop its shit.... Effort played the perfect game
On July 01 2010 18:13 Iplaythings wrote: Effort have seem to found the timing of where flash's turtle play is weak, can't find any other explanations for it.
The explanation is his fast hidden third which gave him a huge economy advantage.... but yeah, the drop was perfectly timed.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Failing to scout effort's third base quick enough sort of let Effort gain a huge eco advantage since all he did was power drones after the 2h lurk fake.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
I remember that you were pretty quick to judge Jaedong's short-comings when it comes to dealing with unorthodox play specifically designed to take him down. Everything Flash did was within Effort's sight, and when you let someone of that calibre read you like a book like that, you deserve to lose.
On July 01 2010 18:11 roronoe wrote: Some people were whining effort beat flash before with cheesy play. No doubt now, effort beat flash badlyyyyyy there.
You got to be blind to not see his opening was cheesy
On July 01 2010 18:11 roronoe wrote: Some people were whining effort beat flash before with cheesy play. No doubt now, effort beat flash badlyyyyyy there.
You got to be blind to not see his opening was cheesy
It's kind of hard to call something cheesy when you don't reap its benefits until Hive tech.
On July 01 2010 18:16 Waxangel wrote: It's pretty clear effort was never behind in this game =o
yeah, totally. everything went well for effort in the early and mid game.... but boy... i was pissin in my pants at the 9min push and when flash had his huge army in the middle >__<
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
He plays completely standard and uncreative. Before this was good enough to beat anyone but people are catching up with creativity. Flash needs to be more creative so people can't practice 100% anti Flash strats.
It seems Effort is taking the advice of the OGN commentators, even though they were discussing Protoss vs. Flash. The key is to make Flash's starsense misfire - which Effort also did in Game 3 of the OSL finals. Do something he hasn't seen before that looks exactly like something that he's seen many times before and he has a predictable, exploitable response.
No longer satisfied with measuring the angle and the distance of his keyboard from the monitor, Flash has taken on a new obsession of seeing 50% winning record in his last 10 games.
On July 01 2010 18:21 epi wrote: The key is to make Flash's starsense misfire - which Effort also did in Game 3 of the OSL finals. Do something he hasn't seen before that looks exactly like something that he's seen many times before and he has a predictable, exploitable response.
On July 01 2010 18:16 Waxangel wrote: It's pretty clear effort was never behind in this game =o
Ya definitely. Effort's weird build was actually built to fight Flash's anti 2hatchery play.
2hatchery lurkers timing with a super fast third. It would normally be considered an abusive expand but as I said it was built around the Flash way of playing. Then perfect defiler timing to counter the slightly delayed vessel into really fast 4th. Flash definitely was uneasy dealing with that super fast 4th as evidenced by his double expand timing. The double expand from Flash generally goes online at around the time the 4th gas finishes but here Effort has his done before Flash even establishes his third. From there he is able to go aggressive earlier then normal and opened up Flash's game with that zergling sneak in on 5. Perfectly executed anti-Flash play
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
He plays completely standard and uncreative. Before this was good enough to beat anyone but people are catching up with creativity. Flash needs to be more creative so people can't practice 100% anti Flash strats.
His vs Z is indeed predictable (and very good), But saying that in general is too much. Whatever.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
Expensive exchange for s2 to save third. Might have been better off trying to break into Classic's main and camp the rax. Still looking good though given that he killed a ton of SCV
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up.
The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely.
That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up.
The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely.
That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
The opening wasn't good for Flash but if Effort doesn't break him at that timing suddenly it's 4 base vs 4. I'm saying that if Effort passively tries to counterexpand to extend his economic advantage, instead of cashing in his early economic advantage, he still loses. That's why it was significant.
Yes, it's true that Effort's early edge made this followup possible. But it doesn't change the fact that other Zergs have done a poor job translating their early economic leads against Terran into wins, because they blindly try to just keep outexpanding Terran instead of hitting the broad timing where Terran can't actually hold 3 different locations (exploitable if you get drop).
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable. There are plenty of ways to stop it and what Effort did was just one of them.
The key is that Effort translated an advantage into a win, something that Zergs have not been good at doing against Terran in general, thanks to the Tank transition.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
I can't believe s2 is letting Classic back into this game. Such poor use of having hive tech out for sooooooooo long + being at a major economic advantage.
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
I don't really know if this is the case... it's true Effort didn't take his 5th, but that's because his eco was way ahead of Flash's thanks to the opening. For a good minute it was 4 base v 2 base and Flash tried double expanding to catch up.
The game came down to the openings and like Nazgul said, Flash just did the same 1 rax CC thing he usually does and Effort countered it nicely.
That said, Effort played his advantage perfectly, unlike many Zergs in that position
Going 1rax CC was not the problem, it was getting duped into thinking 2h lurker was on the way. The extra time Effort got to secure his third and power drone was pretty clear throughout as shown by the much later vessels and attack. Not once did effort feel threatened by Flash's force since he only built 1 sunken. Overall brilliant mind game by Effort and superb late game management.
agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
I'm just waiting for the cries of "FLASH SLUMP" and whatnot.
If he loses the final game I think there's legitimate cause to say that. Obviously a slumping Flash > 90% of progamers, but still
If Flash gets things together soon (including winning the last game tonight) he should be ok. If you're going to play worse than usual for a month, the qualifiers month right after you were in both finals with your team having a huge PL lead is definitely the one to do it.
Say Flash gets back to his old self (he definitely has not been bringing his A game with the regularity that he used to) soon. Then it's just like all the times Jaedong had a so-so month after dominating individual leagues, and not a problem at all. But if this extends for much longer, then it could be costly (for PL finals and/or individuals)
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.
It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.
Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
On July 01 2010 18:39 scrubtastic wrote: agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
What outexpanding are you talking about? Zergs outexpand only when they play against mech turtle. 4 gases is all you need to fight bio terran and getting them for a good 5 minutes before terran gets his 3rd (and when on top of that terran is very low on vessels count) is an insta GG.
On July 01 2010 18:42 okum wrote: Apparently a "metagame shift" is only needed to beat Flash... that was just the usual ZvT.
Did I ever say it was needed? When else has a Zerg played like this going into late game against Terran? Look at Calm vs Flash from the OSL semi-finals again, how big an edge Calm has going into lategame, and how Flash is able to claw his way back into it. Compare that to this game (where Flash was less behind than he was against Calm in my opinion).
Flash hasn't been playing up to his standard lately and this game was no exception. It was not like he played perfectly but it wasn't like he played poorly either. I'm definitely not trying to claim that you need something as significant as a metagame shift to beat Flash, especially the way he's playing right now....
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
Probably just Jaedong fans. If Flash loses the next game, the rest of the MSL is just a formality
On July 01 2010 18:39 scrubtastic wrote: agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
What outexpanding are you talking about? Zergs outexpand only when they play against mech turtle. 4 gases is all you need to fight bio terran and getting them for a good 5 minutes before terran gets his 3rd (and when on top of that terran is very low on vessels count) is an insta GG.
No it's not. It used to be insta-GG but it hasn't been for awhile now that Terrans have gotten better at clawing their way back into it with the Tank transition. There are plenty of games over the past 6 months where Terran has been able to do it. Flash vs Calm in the OSL semifinals was the most prominent example of this that really set a trend though it had happened before that as well (as early as Fantasy vs Jaedong on Outsider in last year's PL finals in fact).
I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.
It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.
Effort outplayed Flash, that's it. But it's not a general formula.
On July 01 2010 18:49 zmeqt wrote: I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
It wasn't cockiness that caused him to put effort in his group, it was a search for vengeance.
On July 01 2010 18:49 zmeqt wrote: I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
Probably just Jaedong fans. If Flash loses the next game, the rest of the MSL is just a formality
Or SKT fans? I am all for upsets but ofcourse I don't want MY favourites to be the ones to go out. ^_*
I'm just waiting for the cries of "FLASH SLUMP" and whatnot.
If he loses the final game I think there's legitimate cause to say that. Obviously a slumping Flash > 90% of progamers, but still
If Flash gets things together soon (including winning the last game tonight) he should be ok. If you're going to play worse than usual for a month, the qualifiers month right after you were in both finals with your team having a huge PL lead is definitely the one to do it.
Say Flash gets back to his old self (he definitely has not been bringing his A game with the regularity that he used to) soon. Then it's just like all the times Jaedong had a so-so month after dominating individual leagues, and not a problem at all. But if this extends for much longer, then it could be costly (for PL finals and/or individuals)
You're right... but JD never ever dropped multiple ace-games like that. Flash should make this easy though, s2 sucks.
Also, I think you're right in the Flash-Effort analysis. Thanks for pointing that out
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.
It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.
Effort outplayed Flash, that's it. But it's not a general formula.
I agree. It's not like now all of a sudden Zerg is like "oh I go into late game with an advantage then use drops and hit spread out bases simultaneously using the power of the Defiler". But in my opinion this game made that option more clear of a possibility than before. Now if you're a Zerg who gets an edge against Flash going into late game (but not big enough to just kill him) on a big map like FS, you can keep him honest about his late game expanding with the possibility of this kind of attack.
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
Just admit that you didn't have a point. It's a competition and the people who win move on. S2 might not have a great chance of winning the tournament but if he wins this match then in what way are you justified in thinking that Flash would make the tournament more exciting?
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
Just admit that you didn't have a point. It's a competition and the people who win move on. S2 might not have a great chance of winning the tournament but if he wins this match then in what way are you justified in thinking that Flash would make the tournament more exciting?
He never said that the winner doesn't deserve to move on. He's simply saying the MSL is more likely to be exciting with Flash advancing than S2. Do you really disagree?
Man... This shows me more than anything that flash is still so scary. The lone zerg player he consistently loses to is effort. He can 3-0 the best zerg ever, the greatest series player of all time, in the finals of a "starleague" and make it look effortless. Effort can beat him though. But even when effort DOES beat flash, he seems to use some sort of weird build, or timing that flash isn't used to dealing with. Effort has to play immaculately and with perfect cunning to squeak a win by flash.
On July 01 2010 18:56 Warrior Madness wrote: Man... This shows me more than anything that flash is still so scary. The lone zerg player he consistently loses to is effort. He can 3-0 the best zerg ever, the greatest series player of all time, in the finals of a "starleague" and make it look effortless. Effort can beat him though. But even when effort DOES beat flash, he seems to use some sort of weird build, or timing that flash isn't used to dealing with. Effort has to play immaculately and with perfect cunning to squeak a win by flash.
How was that "squeaking" a win? He won quite handily.
On July 01 2010 18:56 Warrior Madness wrote: Man... This shows me more than anything that flash is still so scary. The lone zerg player he consistently loses to is effort. He can 3-0 the best zerg ever, the greatest series player of all time, in the finals of a "starleague" and make it look effortless. Effort can beat him though. But even when effort DOES beat flash, he seems to use some sort of weird build, or timing that flash isn't used to dealing with. Effort has to play immaculately and with perfect cunning to squeak a win by flash.
On July 01 2010 18:56 Warrior Madness wrote: Man... This shows me more than anything that flash is still so scary. The lone zerg player he consistently loses to is effort. He can 3-0 the best zerg ever, the greatest series player of all time, in the finals of a "starleague" and make it look effortless. Effort can beat him though. But even when effort DOES beat flash, he seems to use some sort of weird build, or timing that flash isn't used to dealing with. Effort has to play immaculately and with perfect cunning to squeak a win by flash.
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
Just admit that you didn't have a point. It's a competition and the people who win move on. S2 might not have a great chance of winning the tournament but if he wins this match then in what way are you justified in thinking that Flash would make the tournament more exciting?
He never said that the winner doesn't deserve to move on. He's simply saying the MSL is more likely to be exciting with Flash advancing than S2. Do you really disagree?
He said that people who were not seeded from the last tournament should not move on. If Flash loses to S2 then I don't see how his presence would make the rest of the tournament any more exciting. He's only saying that because his expectation was that Flash would do well. If he loses then he hasn't done well. End of story.
On July 01 2010 18:47 darktreb wrote: Flash hasn't been playing up to his standard lately and this game was no exception. It was not like he played perfectly but it wasn't like he played poorly either. I'm definitely not trying to claim that you need something as significant as a metagame shift to beat Flash, especially the way he's playing right now....
Flash played this game perfectly up to his standards what are you talking about? He executed very clean counter to 2h lurker... meanwhile effort was getting super fast 3rd and Hive. When he realized what's going on it was to late for him to come back. It was a mindgame loss, nothing else.
On July 01 2010 18:39 scrubtastic wrote: agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
What outexpanding are you talking about? Zergs outexpand only when they play against mech turtle. 4 gases is all you need to fight bio terran and getting them for a good 5 minutes before terran gets his 3rd (and when on top of that terran is very low on vessels count) is an insta GG.
No it's not. It used to be insta-GG but it hasn't been for awhile now that Terrans have gotten better at clawing their way back into it with the Tank transition. There are plenty of games over the past 6 months where Terran has been able to do it. Flash vs Calm in the OSL semifinals was the most prominent example of this that really set a trend though it had happened before that as well (as early as Fantasy vs Jaedong on Outsider in last year's PL finals in fact).
Are these games 4 base hive zerg vs 2 base bio terran with late vessels?
On July 01 2010 18:56 Warrior Madness wrote: Man... This shows me more than anything that flash is still so scary. The lone zerg player he consistently loses to is effort. He can 3-0 the best zerg ever, the greatest series player of all time, in the finals of a "starleague" and make it look effortless. Effort can beat him though. But even when effort DOES beat flash, he seems to use some sort of weird build, or timing that flash isn't used to dealing with. Effort has to play immaculately and with perfect cunning to squeak a win by flash.
whats wrong with "weird builds" ? he just was smarter this game , thats all, this is how its must be done to win always!
Flash caught unsieged, backs off to his third. Significant losses on both sides, Flash loses fourth CC. S2 morphing the shit out of guardians, but I'd like to see him take a fifth...
On July 01 2010 19:09 anch wrote: wow one blunder and its gg. tahts SC folks.
One blunder? Way the fuck more than one blunder.
Lurker rushing mech + bunker? Lulz. Staying only one base ahead of mech? Lulz. Not flanking mech? Lulz. ATTACKING fortifications with 10+ turrets? Lulz.
On July 01 2010 19:09 anch wrote: wow one blunder and its gg. tahts SC folks.
One blunder? Way the fuck more than one blunder.
Lurker rushing mech + bunker? Lulz. Staying only one base ahead of mech? Lulz. Not flanking mech? Lulz. ATTACKING fortifications with 10+ turrets? Lulz.
This. The game might've had an exciting moment when s2 suicided his whole army to deny flash's 4th for a bit... but it wasn't that close.
On July 01 2010 19:11 Megalisk wrote: Typical mech bullshit
gg
14cc and mech, my dear. Considering the odds, s2 played pretty well.
You can't count 14cc as flash's fault when he did it as a result of seeing s2's opening (12hatch, followed by in-base 3rd before pool). He waited to put the cc down until after he scouted, to know if he can play econ (in response to the opponent's econ opening) or start producing units.
On July 01 2010 19:11 Megalisk wrote: Typical mech bullshit
gg
14cc and mech, my dear. Considering the odds, s2 played pretty well.
You can't count 14cc as flash's fault when he did it as a result of seeing s2's opening (12hatch, followed by in-base 3rd before pool). He waited to put the cc down until after he scouted, to know if he can play econ (in response to the opponent's econ opening) or start producing units.
What? How can you wait to 14cc until after scout? By not making your barracks for that long you are kind of committed to the greedy econ opening.
On July 01 2010 19:11 Megalisk wrote: Typical mech bullshit
gg
14cc and mech, my dear. Considering the odds, s2 played pretty well.
You can't count 14cc as flash's fault when he did it as a result of seeing s2's opening (12hatch, followed by in-base 3rd before pool). He waited to put the cc down until after he scouted, to know if he can play econ (in response to the opponent's econ opening) or start producing units.
Are you sure? I just saw the 14cc and thought s2 was the one reacting to it. Guess I'm too used to seeing it that way.
Ah c'mon, s2 could have played that out a lot better, he clearly had a shot at it after denying the fourth for the first time, and if he had pulled back sooner at the second attack, after the first line of tanks fell. And only he knows why he didn't take 7 o'clock to be on five gas.
Flash did nothing spectacular, he looks very beatable again.
On July 01 2010 19:11 Megalisk wrote: Typical mech bullshit
gg
14cc and mech, my dear. Considering the odds, s2 played pretty well.
You can't count 14cc as flash's fault when he did it as a result of seeing s2's opening (12hatch, followed by in-base 3rd before pool). He waited to put the cc down until after he scouted, to know if he can play econ (in response to the opponent's econ opening) or start producing units.
Are you sure? I just saw the 14cc and thought s2 was the one reacting to it. Guess I'm too used to seeing it that way.
s2's overlord didn't even reach flash's base when flash's scv reached s2's base, it was about halfway there (as is the usual case with overlord scouting). Yes, by waiting with his rax flash allowed himself the option to play an econ game, but also if needed, double rax into defensive play. He saw the 12 hatch (even delayed it a bit with his scv if you recall), and then threw down the CC. I don't think you can count that against him, as its just reacting to balance out your opponent. Had s2 gone for a less greedy opening (I mean, christ, 3 hatch before pool), flash would have likely done the same (if only to survive the early wave of lings).
On July 01 2010 19:11 Megalisk wrote: Typical mech bullshit
gg
14cc and mech, my dear. Considering the odds, s2 played pretty well.
You can't count 14cc as flash's fault when he did it as a result of seeing s2's opening (12hatch, followed by in-base 3rd before pool). He waited to put the cc down until after he scouted, to know if he can play econ (in response to the opponent's econ opening) or start producing units.
What? How can you wait to 14cc until after scout? By not making your barracks for that long you are kind of committed to the greedy econ opening.
You can also double rax and wall off the choke if needed instead of a CC. He scouted on 12 or so. Flash's scout into 14cc is something that he has done quite a few times, even vT on match point.
I wonder if s2 had attacked at Flash's natural with his guardians, he could have done a LOT more damage. Although Flash's army wasn't at his natural, he could basically take out the nat and prevent his guards from being sniped off, as there's plenty of cliff area above it.
On July 01 2010 19:22 rainei wrote: I wonder if s2 had attacked at Flash's natural with his guardians, he could have done a LOT more damage. Although Flash's army wasn't at his natural, he could basically take out the nat and prevent his guards from being sniped off, as there's plenty of cliff area above it.
If he would have waited for his defilers/consume before he threw away a couple of waves of his army he might have been able to break flash, since at that point he had already taken care of most of the mines. Alas, he figured he didn't need them or whatever.
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season".
He does need to work on his lategame vZ, but he doesn't get to explore it in televised matches all too often (except for w/ JD, though not these last finals).
s2 made a lot of mistakes in that combo attack. He should send guardians first (they could take down goliaths first then tanks, there was a great number there) and follow with ground army. At least he could clear 4th and leave not push into 3rd.
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season"
Well you can take away two games against "you know who" because we all know why Flash won those games... ^_*
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season"
So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against zerg opponents over time.
I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season"
So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against other zerg opponents over time.
I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
I think this game can be used as a good example of opposition understanding how flash plays and knowing how to counter it. The others were good examples to flash to perhaps hold his horses on the greedy play from time to time and not lose to stupid ling all ins because of bad positioning and the like. This game actually displayed something entirely different that hopefully Flash can learn from. People understand his play and while before his mechanics and star sense might have carried him to victory, that simply might not be the case any longer so he'll have to mix it up.
edit: those other 13 games, the majority being wins, don't teach you nearly as much as your losses do.
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season"
So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against other zerg opponents over time.
I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
No, I'm merely commenting on you saying he needs to learn to TvZ better. I agreed above (edited just prior to your post) that his lategame vZ needs work, but to say that he should have expected a lategame deficiency in his play from his proleague games and results (which he won all but 2, and 1 was due to a scouting error with effort being crafty) isn't very logical. Players don't often know what to work on until they are shown the error of their ways.
In the finals, flash got greedy and effort channeled his inner-kwanro, and that was that. I'm sure flash learned from it for his tvz openings (hence the faster scouting usually). I don't think its logical to say that based on his results (especially lategame TvZ) it's obvious to him what his flaws are in order to improve them. Games like these certainly help. I don't even know why you pointed out Flash's entire proleague season as things he should have learned from, he raped zergs left and right all year there.
On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote: I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them.
Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season?
The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season"
So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against zerg opponents over time.
I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
Games with extensive macro like this one surely help him understand his opponents a lot more. None of the 5 games they play in OSL grand finals got into late game. So it's not like it's "more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago", but it adds up a lot to his experience.
Well I can't say that I went back and checked on the durations of all of the Proleague games to determine how many of them reached the late game but I think I disagree with the assertion that you learn significantly more from losses than from wins. You might be tempted into overconfidence by winning constantly but I think that if he is smart then he reviews all of his games regardless of the outcome to see where he succeeded and where he could have done better. I didn't mean to suggest that his match today wasn't useful to him, just that it was an oversimplification to say that it would teach him about all of his deficiencies in the matchup.
wow effort made flash look mortal ! lol well i haven't been watching any of flashes ace game losses recently though :x but still only 1 month ish ago flash was like insane terminator guy.
On July 01 2010 19:17 Jackal03 wrote: just woke up to see the results, the obvious happended (in all games)
Silly cj fan
Why is that silly? Effort has won 5 of the 7 games they have played lately. Or did Flash lose all of those 5 games, not Effort winning them? lol
Scara is right. Games > results. EffOrt clearly didn't win those 5 out of 7 games because he was/is the better player, that much is plain. So based on their skill level it's still wrong to assume EffOrt was the favorite against Flash.
On July 01 2010 19:13 Highways wrote: Mech is the biggest disgrace in Starcraft.
Sit back and do nothing, Zerg has to get the attack perfectly right (which is really hard) else the overpowered mech eats up the Zerg army.
After that 1a2a3a your way to victory.
Flash raping S2 is hardly proof that mech is imba. If it was, terrans would be using it all the time but they don't because it isn't that easy to pull off. Try playing with it, it's hardly doing nothing.
Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
On July 01 2010 23:00 Scarecrow wrote: Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
It must be good to believe that your favorite player can only lose to cheese. First, Effort didn't cheese -- he won the mind games decisively. He made Flash play defensively, which allowed him to seize an econ advantage. Snow made Flash overcommit to defense, and thus he was able to take the lead. That's not cheese. Second, in the late game Flash was setting up his four base into mass tanks turtle, which has allowed him to consistently win against Zergs even when at a sizeable starting disadvantage, but Effort wasn't taking any of it and swiftly broke it. Straight up outplayed him.
As an Effort fan, I'm psyched to see him playing so strong. I saw his MSL group and thought it was probably over right there haha. I've learned my lesson.
On July 01 2010 19:13 Highways wrote: Mech is the biggest disgrace in Starcraft.
Sit back and do nothing, Zerg has to get the attack perfectly right (which is really hard) else the overpowered mech eats up the Zerg army.
After that 1a2a3a your way to victory.
Flash raping S2 is hardly proof that mech is imba. If it was, terrans would be using it all the time but they don't because it isn't that easy to pull off. Try playing with it, it's hardly doing nothing. Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
How blinded by fan boyism can you get. Edit: Also mech is much easier to pull off than bio from a macro and micro point of view, the only thing right about this post though is that it is indeed not imba.
There was a time when EffOrt was a monster in Proleague and couldn't do shit in StarLeagues. Looks like he has decided to do exactly the opposite... lol.
Seems like a good way to beat Flash, who essentially, plays like a robot. If you play exactly standard, you'll probably be in a lot of trouble.
On July 02 2010 02:00 DreaM)XeRO wrote: Effort is starting to remind me of July and Flash Oov. Flashbacks oh my
Effort, unfortunately, has the management of Savior, the micro of July, and the consistency of Calm.
oh please, effort is good. Like flash they have both lost to players that are far below them. I cant mention either in the same sentence as players like that without rolling my eyes.
Oh my... So I just saw the effort vs flash game. Wow. Watching effort that game... I haven't seen such timing, such precision, such masterful control like that in a long time. He was like a conductor of, oh I dunno, let's say a symphony. Towards the end of the game he swoops in with just a few lings with perfect timing to delay flash's factories in his 4th base. And as soon as flash pulls his army back to defend that base, effort drops flash's main. And as soon as flash moves his army to defend his main, effort attacks flash's nat, 3rd, and 4th all at the same time.
I've never seen flash dominated like that in a ZvT before.
On July 02 2010 05:50 Warrior Madness wrote: I haven't seen such timing, such precision, such masterful control like that in a long time. He was like a conductor of, oh I dunno, let's say a symphony
eh.... glad that Flash made it! cannot believe that I was this nervous, Flash has been very shaky recently, and this is coming from a rabid fan. But I think it's better that it happens now then in later stages where it really matters
On July 02 2010 05:50 Warrior Madness wrote: I haven't seen such timing, such precision, such masterful control like that in a long time. He was like a conductor of, oh I dunno, let's say a symphony
I have to agree the communities rock, but to my knowledge, Melee (and brawl) are not very high technical skill when compared to other fighting games, so I don't think its like SC in that way. This is what I've heard from high level fighting game and smash players.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii154/Jaime_Lannister/bmga.jpg)
Flash vs 
EffOrt vs 
SangHo. He has a solid record of 10-5 in televised games, although his only notable win was using M&M as well as firebats to defeat 
i was so depressed
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![[image loading]](http://www.bedeo.fr/var/bedeo/storage/images/bd_gallery/le-top-10-des-mechants/gargamel/1886781-1-fre-FR/Gargamel.jpg)
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