On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
Probably just Jaedong fans. If Flash loses the next game, the rest of the MSL is just a formality
On July 01 2010 18:39 scrubtastic wrote: agreeing with darktreb here - it's not so much the opening (although that was pretty sick as well, played flash like a fiddle) as it was the crushing of flash when he overextended, instead of trying to outexpand flash.
Flash couldn't actually defend those 3rd/4th bases so easily (yet) but I haven't seen other zergs take much advantage of that.
Effort? Did. Very well controlled defilers + lings did significant damage to Flash's bases and the drop in the main was the nail in the coffin
What outexpanding are you talking about? Zergs outexpand only when they play against mech turtle. 4 gases is all you need to fight bio terran and getting them for a good 5 minutes before terran gets his 3rd (and when on top of that terran is very low on vessels count) is an insta GG.
No it's not. It used to be insta-GG but it hasn't been for awhile now that Terrans have gotten better at clawing their way back into it with the Tank transition. There are plenty of games over the past 6 months where Terran has been able to do it. Flash vs Calm in the OSL semifinals was the most prominent example of this that really set a trend though it had happened before that as well (as early as Fantasy vs Jaedong on Outsider in last year's PL finals in fact).
I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.
It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.
Effort outplayed Flash, that's it. But it's not a general formula.
On July 01 2010 18:49 zmeqt wrote: I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
It wasn't cockiness that caused him to put effort in his group, it was a search for vengeance.
On July 01 2010 18:49 zmeqt wrote: I really hope s2 can drop the bomb this MSL.Flash was so cocky picking Effort in his group.Effort himself warned him thet he will be sorry and i`m so glad he was right
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
Probably just Jaedong fans. If Flash loses the next game, the rest of the MSL is just a formality
Or SKT fans? I am all for upsets but ofcourse I don't want MY favourites to be the ones to go out. ^_*
I'm just waiting for the cries of "FLASH SLUMP" and whatnot.
If he loses the final game I think there's legitimate cause to say that. Obviously a slumping Flash > 90% of progamers, but still
If Flash gets things together soon (including winning the last game tonight) he should be ok. If you're going to play worse than usual for a month, the qualifiers month right after you were in both finals with your team having a huge PL lead is definitely the one to do it.
Say Flash gets back to his old self (he definitely has not been bringing his A game with the regularity that he used to) soon. Then it's just like all the times Jaedong had a so-so month after dominating individual leagues, and not a problem at all. But if this extends for much longer, then it could be costly (for PL finals and/or individuals)
You're right... but JD never ever dropped multiple ace-games like that. Flash should make this easy though, s2 sucks.
Also, I think you're right in the Flash-Effort analysis. Thanks for pointing that out
On July 01 2010 18:14 Plexa wrote: The great thing about that game was that it is so difficult to determine what exactly flash did wrong
Hmm? It's pretty clear... Review his early game.
I disagree. Flash goes into that kind of mid/late game all the time and it's not a problem. Winning on the pre-Defiler push is not a requisite by any means.
I'm of the opinion that that game was VERY significant for ZvT lategame (or at least ZvFlash late game).
Effort did something that I've been hoping Zergs would do for a long time, which is instead of just blindly trying to secure a 5th/6th base and letting T just take a 3rd and 4th WITHOUT EVEN SECURING THEM, punish the Terran for their greed.
Basically what's been happening in modern late game TvZ lately is Zerg gets the 4 bases then tries to work up to a 5th or 6th if they don't see the "roll over Terran" timing which they don't against Flash since he does such a great job controlling the center. Flash responded by just taking his 3rd and 4th and counting on his center control to "secure" the bases instead of actually defending the bases themselves (instead, he builds up defenses in the other main slowly).
But what Effort did that was so great was he didn't freak out about getting a 5th (he tried and failed but his build was never dependent on it). Instead he was like "if I hit with a Defiler or two and some Ultraling at each of the three places Terran is tryign to defend he can't hold". Throw in drops to make this possible while dodging Flash's center control and you've got a brilliant counter to the Terran late game greed.
What are the implications of this? This is a metagame (yes that word!) shift in my opinion. I think Terran will now be forced to be more careful about the lategame transition, which has really been quite sloppy up to this point. Terrans have basically been like "I'm going to have map presence with MnM Vessel and take my 3rd/4th and maybe even 5th with little resistance in spite of not having enough to actually defend them". Terrans will have to actually "earn" the extra late game bases for the Tank transition, as opposed to getting it for free against the ways Zergs have been playing (which is to respond by desperately trying to secure more bases even though even that really doesn't help that much if Terran actually gets 4 base and 4 gas running and secured).
Very exciting game for TvZ ... I hope we see some changes as a result.
If Flash understands int time what Effort is doing and doesnt put down the extra bunkers - he most likely wins with a timing push.
Stop looking so closely at the details of the early game. It's true that Effort came out ahead after midgame but to just say "Flash could have won with a timing push" is pointless because it's not like Zerg can't find ways to survive the timing push. The timing push is not invincible and it's not like if Terran executes perfectly the timing push is unstoppable.
Yes, it would be in that game, that would be the right counter. Stop trying to take too many general conclusions about this game, metagame shift my ass.
Are you saying ZvTs don't get into the situation where Zerg has a decent edge going into late game? I'm saying that in the past, when Zerg goes into lategame with an edge, Terran has been able to crawl back into a game by playing the way Flash attempted to, and Zerg has let Terran do this.
It doesn't matter how it happened - in this particular game it was Effort tricking Flash with his build. The point is that it happens all the time for a variety of reasons. Zerg goes into lategame with an edge against Terran all the time. This is the first time I've really seen a Zerg respond to the Terran double expand (3rd/4th) THIS effectively, and I think other Zergs would be fools not to consider this multi-pronged simultaneous attack as an option for a similar situation.
Effort outplayed Flash, that's it. But it's not a general formula.
I agree. It's not like now all of a sudden Zerg is like "oh I go into late game with an advantage then use drops and hit spread out bases simultaneously using the power of the Defiler". But in my opinion this game made that option more clear of a possibility than before. Now if you're a Zerg who gets an edge against Flash going into late game (but not big enough to just kill him) on a big map like FS, you can keep him honest about his late game expanding with the possibility of this kind of attack.
On July 01 2010 18:46 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Not sure why people would want somebody like s2 to advance who is only 90% likely to lose in the following round. All the top seeds should advance to make the deeper rounds that much more exciting. I'm all for an upset, but in the first round simply denies us the opportunity of future good series... no offense to s2.
You might as well not even have a tournament then.
Clearly that's what my post indicates... Hi Mr. Strawman, how are you doing today?
Just admit that you didn't have a point. It's a competition and the people who win move on. S2 might not have a great chance of winning the tournament but if he wins this match then in what way are you justified in thinking that Flash would make the tournament more exciting?
EPT
